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 Reed Collapse
Author: ClariTone 
Date:   2006-07-10 19:14

Hello

Recently I've been noticing my reeds will collapse. While I admit I sometimes bite (the clarinetist in me.....) I wonder if they will collapse for other reasons as well.

When oboe reeds age, do they weaken and become more prone to collapse? Is this a sign to give them a break, or do you need to smash 'em and buy/make some more?

Thanks!!!
Clayton



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 Re: Reed Collapse
Author: ohsuzan 
Date:   2006-07-10 22:06

>>When oboe reeds age, do they weaken and become more prone to collapse? Is this a sign to give them a break, or do you need to smash 'em and buy/make some more?<<



http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=2687&t=2685




S.



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 Re: Reed Collapse
Author: ClariTone 
Date:   2006-07-11 00:46

Thanks!!!

Another question then. So...the harder the reed, the less prone it is to weaken and collapse???

Clayton



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 Re: Reed Collapse
Author: ohsuzan 
Date:   2006-07-11 03:13

>>So...the harder the reed, the less prone it is to weaken and collapse???<<


Well, yes . . . but . . .

Some of the "collapsibility" has to do with the size of the opening in the first place (which has to do with the shape and gouge and width, and other reed arcana that I have not yet understood).

It takes longer for more open reeds to flatten themselves out. But too open reeds sound and play awful, so there is a limit to what you can hope for on that account. In fact, I believe that many of us have developed the habit of squeezing down our new reeds a little, to make them more responsive and to give it a more refined, less hooty, tone. (Just be sure the reed is wet when you do this, and don't get carried away -- just a little push.)

Most of the time, when we say "harder" reeds, we mean *more resistant* to the breath and tongue. Again, there is a limit to how much of this sort of hardness you want to have, because you do want a responsive reed that doesn't feel like a bad balloon to blow -- it needs to be relatively comfortable, or again, you will be hooting and honking.

There is also a "hardness" degree in reeds that pertains to the cane itself, and here is where I think the longer-lived reeds dwell.

I think you know, from your clarinet life, that there are more dense and less dense brands of cane available, in whatever strength. Compare, say, a Mitchell Lurie 3 to a Gonzales FOF 3 or a Rico Grand Concert Select. Different beasts, right?

The same thing is true of oboe reeds. There is hard cane, and there is soft cane, and all degrees in between.

Softer cane is easier to work, but makes reeds that don't hold up as long. Harder cane is sometimes a pain to work, but makes reeds that last longer, all other things being equal.

About the hardest cane I have seen in an oboe reed is the K.Ge stuff (search function or Google it). It looks like furniture-grade cane, only smaller. I think most experienced reed makers prefer a somewhat harder cane to start with, although I may be wrong about that.

Anybody who makes reeds have any comments about this?

Susan

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 Re: Reed Collapse
Author: mschmidt 
Date:   2006-07-12 23:36

Some reeds collapse because every piece of cane is different and some just like to collapse! Even if you buy cane that is "presorted" for opening, you will get variations in opening. The opening depends on just how the reed is tied. It depends on the bore and taper of the staple. It depends on how the reed is scraped--spineless reeds collapse much more easily. Sometimes when a reed is too open I purposefully thin the spine; the one reed I bought from Dunkel & Severson looks like they may go to extremes with this strategy.

I don't find that cane hardness has a whole lot to do with it. I used to use D&S's "H" grade, and have moved to their "XH." The main difference is that the tips have more fine vascular bundle structure, which means they're stronger, and are easier to scrape thinner. (I used to get my cane from Don Plesnicar in NM, who had built his cane business around the theme of "vascular bundle structure." I don't know if he's still in business.)

Mike

Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore



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 Re: Reed Collapse
Author: kroboe 
Date:   2006-07-14 10:26

You might have a look at my comments to an old post from EricZ named "Reeds with wire" from 2005-9-21
kroboe

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 Re: Reed Collapse
Author: ClariTone 
Date:   2006-07-14 13:04

Thanks All!!!

I guess my old reeds were a bit too soft, as my new ones haven't collapsed yet. A good sign?

Clayton



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 Re: Reed Collapse
Author: doublereeder2 
Date:   2006-07-14 21:52

Agreeing with the age of reeds being a factor and mscmidt's assessment of the spine and staple, etc., another possibility is that the "rails" may too thin, or the sides of the plateau (heart) have also been scraped too thin.

>>So...the harder the reed, the less prone it is to weaken and collapse???<<

No, sorry, but I disagree. I believe that "hard" reeds make the oboist muscle the reed (bite) more, often causing the reed to collapse. A reed does not need to be hard to stand open. The gouge, shape, your scraping, the staples, et al. contribute to reed openings, as does the diameter of the cane.

If your reeds usually close as you play them, it probably has something to do with embouchure, IMHO.

Ohsusan:
Regarding hardness of cane: I have been making reeds for 30+ years dislike hard cane immensely - it just is too difficult to make vibrate. Too soft and shreddy cane is no fun either. A nice medium cane works best for me (in the perfect reed world). Unfortunately, most cane is not like that.

Welcome to part of the complexity of the oboe!



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