 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-09-20 19:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T_QHNiMa0s
Sir John Barbirolli
Andate from Oboe Concerto in C (attrib. Haydn)
from: VAI DVD 4293
Sir John Barbirolli
in rehearsal and performance
Vancouver Symphony Orchestra (1963)
Evelyn Rothwell, Oboe
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-09-21 00:47
... yes, thank you muchly, pretty good recording all considered, never seen her play before, note angle of oboe and elbows for other post discussion, and there's that 'bright' oboe tone too, and omigosh, did we really dress like that back in those good old days?
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-09-21 14:45
I adore that "bright" oboe tone. Nasal, piercing, says "oboe" to me. Wish I could get MY oboe to sound like that, but it keeps sounding like a clarinet or flute, i.e. "dark", especially with reeds that are long and narrow with huge, long windows, as opposed to short and squatty with smaller windows.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's just a Fox/Loree thing--are Fox oboes generally assumed to be "dark" and Lorees are "bright"? It's the bore, right? I see where WWBW is billing Lorees as "with traditional or American bore". Is the "traditional" bore the "bright" bore, and the "American" bore the "dark" or more clarinet-ish sounding bore?
ETA: I also note that her microphone is right in front of her--how much of her "Bright" tone is due to the mike's being right there, and how much of it would be lost in the concert hall, so it wouldn't sound quite so "bright" if you were sitting out in front?
ETA: Is the "elbows out" thing a personal mannerism of hers, or was it the fashion in the 1950s?
Post Edited (2007-09-21 14:47)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-09-21 14:58
I am still taught to bring elbows out now and it's 2007. Of course, my current teacher studied with Douglas Boyd and she started oboe in England.
I think the microphone contributes a hell lot because while appreciating the video i was annoyed at how too 'in your face' the sound was, because although bright and nasal, it would sing from an audience's point of view.
No comments on oboe brands! =D
Howard
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-09-21 22:26
color me unimpressed...i don't like the phrasing, the fingering is unsure, the tongueing is bizarre, some of it sounds out of tune and i hate that nasal wahwah whiny spread out tone...other than that, boffo!
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-09-22 01:59
There's obviously historical issues to the video, but a lot of it is also cultural. If you listen to Sarah Francis CDs, as well as Goosens, there's similarity in vibrato and phrasing.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-09-22 16:42
Maybe it's also more pronounced on this particular haydn performance...i went to the oboe sound gallery and relistened to her corelli as well as the goosens clip and though not my ideal tone quality (too much spread, etc.), i found them both very listenable. I agree that Sarah Francis is definitely in that tonal mode too, though i find that other british oboists like Gordon Hunt, Neil Black and Nicholas Daniels have a much more appealing sound.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-09-22 23:36
sure. Doesn't it seem like there's a "newer school of English oboe" and an "Older school"? Perhaps Chris can comment more on this.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-09-23 00:08
historically speaking ... American content
Earl L Clemens (former IDRS prez) in his booklet Practical Hints On Playing The Oboe (1983) illustrates the so-called 'traditional' good oboe posture
as demonstrated by Rothwell
erect back
top of head (not back of head) parallel to floor
neck is held straight and upright, not bent forward
lower jaw is dropped
oboe appropriately elevated as extension of the reed in embouchure
both elbows definitely up
has a military look to it, maybe that's a common connection?
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2007-09-23 14:26
I suppose all of what she did was because, well, that's how she was taught to do it.
-Tone - Let's face facts: microphones from that decade are pretty wretched compared to the technological wonders we have in 2007. Therefore, we are missing out on a lot of the complexity of her sound; we may be getting a distortion (based on the mic's limitations) of the overtones and frequencies.
-Elbows- of course it's a personal thing, but I think she may have been a bit tense while playing, or at least that's what it looks like. The arms don't need to be held soaring high at all times. In fact, they can almost be used as an expressive element. For a quiet delicate part, maybe tuck them in a bit and crouch forward, and for a loud bit, stand up straight, arms and oboe up, and blow the heck out of the thing. Whatever works!
-Oboe angle- this depends somewhat on facial structure, and desired sound. Compared to some of my colleagues, I hold the oboe rather high..but only because it's comfortable to me. I would never change the angle of my oboe for some reason like "oh well this famous oboist does, I should too..."
-Jaw position- this is a give and take situation. The more the jaw is closed, the more one can relax the lips forward, but the sound isn't as resonant. The more it's open, the bigger the sound, but much less flexibility in the lips as they pull back over the teeth.
Another comment about tone...I was told by my teacher (Normand Forget), who I think heard this from Maurice Bourgue:
"The oboe is a clear instrument - if you want something fuzzy and soft, play something else!"
I can honestly say, that quote has made my life much easier. Instead of fighting for this warm fuzzy clarinet sound (which everyone does at some point) just let the oboe be an oboe! If you listen to any Heinz Holliger stuff, you know that his tone is quite nasal - but in 5 minutes his musicality completely overrides all of that anyway!
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-09-23 14:58
Re: Posture
From "Oboe Technique" by Evelyn Rothwell (copyright 1956): "Your chest should be raised, shoulders naturally straight (not lifted), and your head up -- chin well in and neck straight. Your elbows should be held away from your body, the wrists fairly flat, so that your arms cannot cramp your chest expansion and in order that your fingers may lie in a good position on the oboe. The angle at which the instrument is held away from the body must vary according to the individual and the mmethod of playong used, but the average is at an angle of approximately 45 degrees..."
And later, re: angle of oboe and embouchure: "As a general rule, there should not be an uneven pressure from the lips on the two blades of the reed, for this would affect its vibration and thus cause resistance to the air column flowing through the instrument....In many embouchures the formation of the teeth and/or the comparative shortness of the upper lip makes it necessary for the upper jaw, and therefore lip, to jut out slightly over the lower....(Y)ou must determine for yourself the angle at which your embouchure is comfortable and right."
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-09-23 20:50
... if you want a brighter 'oboey' sound to your own playing, dutchy, i suggest you sample some U-scrape style reeds made in France or Britain which are cut brightly, the American style is already cut darkly and you'll not get the sound you like out of them -- get the near-pro reeds for your best experience with that style of reed
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-09-24 15:33
Okay. I had thought of that earlier in my oboe career, but the only one I could get my hands on easily was Chartier, from WWBW, and I wasn't impressed at the time, but that was a while ago, maybe I should get them back out of the reed box and have another go at them.
Any suggestions as to other names? I've pretty thoroughly explored most of the mainstream US reedmakers, but have no clue as to overseas.
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2007-09-24 16:24
I totally agree with Maurice Bourgue's comment. I was in his masterclass (when Norman Forget was there) when he made that comment.
Of course it would be nice if we could blend with other instruments when needed, but oboe should sound like an oboe, not like a clarinet. That's my take anyway.
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-09-24 17:05
Dutchy -- You might try K.Ge Reeds at: http://shop.kge-reeds.com/store/index.shop.
They are in Australia, use Chinese cane, and have an excellent reputation. They will make American scrape on request, though I think they usually do a short scrape. (I have used their cane, and have made some good reeds from it, though it is not my first choice.)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-09-24 22:56
Whew, I'll have to think about that one. Expensive reeds, even for "Student", and then the shipping...hmm...
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-09-28 14:56
I use K Ges for emergencies, so i can tell you that they are quite reliable. Just get the narrow shape professional reeds without wire if you are not familiar with U scrape reeds. The student reeds and the ones with wire tend to need much adjustment to play.
Howard
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-09-29 14:21
Howard, Do you use the Chinese cane which K Ge sells? What is your opinion, compared to the Var varieties usually sold by distributors?
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-09-29 16:10
I usually split, gouge and shape cane at my teacher's place and so far i have only tried Le Rosseau Chantant, Mdm Ghys, Alliaud, and some unknown brands here and there. Le Rosseau has been very reliable most of the time, as well as Alliaud. I have used some of the shaped cane from K Ge with narrow endings for German type staples, they work very well, but seem to close rather quickly after a few days. There is a tendency for their reeds to be a bit like that too. Generally fine but not worth the price i would say.
Howard
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Author: claire70
Date: 2007-10-16 20:20
As a Brit, I have to come to the defence of Dame Evelyn's elbows here... they are *completely normal* to a British person! (and a European?) In fact, on the occasions when I see an American oboist playing (eg. on TV or in person), I am quite astonished at how you guys hold your instruments so close to your body - how on earth do you breathe?! It looks to me more like clarinettists hold their instruments - elbows in, chin quite tucked in, looks very constricted to me.
Incidentally, I am a big fan of Ke Xun Ge reeds - and I find them pretty much the darkest I can get over here. Most British reeds are much brighter - closer to the sound Dame E. is making.
Post Edited (2007-10-16 20:21)
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