 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2007-07-23 15:46
Hi,
When tying reeds (pre-soaked for 30 minutes) to the staple, 50% of the time the cane splits at the end I am tying. If I'm fast enough, I can usually manage to tie the reed completely before the split goes past the string but there has to be a way to prevent this. Any ideas?
The cane I'm using is Rigotti (not sure of the gouge).
Thanks in advance for your input....
Jay
Post Edited (2007-07-23 15:46)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-07-23 16:29
Do you scrape the 3-4mm end of the cane thinly before you tie? (I put the piece of cane on an easel and cut the ends thin with a cutter, it's faster that way.) I also make 3 pairs of crossed patterns just above the mentioned scrape. (They should 'feel' like the scales of fish afterwards.) Occasionally they split anyway, but never crossing the "fish scales". Hope this helps.
Howard
Post Edited (2007-07-23 16:32)
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-07-23 18:07
-- echo HautboisJJ comment, it's good to debark and grade down the butt ends of cane about 3-5mm and lightly score across the division line between barked and debarked area (i add other score lines above and below for luck, but those cross-hatches sound good too) and i've found doing this is actually more helpful for ensuring a smooth transition of the winding thread from cane to tube
-- most of my cracks usually begin at the throat (top of tube) not at the butt end
-- so i've found it helps me to pre-soak cane longer than half-hour before tying, this seems the most reliable thing to do to prevent cracking while tying on -- rule of thumb is soak cane for tying on long enough so it sinks AND no air bubbles left on cane surface (that is, it's sodden right through)
about 2-4 hours should do it, use tepid water, leave at comfortable room temperature (in a covered container to exclude dust)
-- this is way too much soaking for playing or even cutting a new reed, which is why it's it works for me to tie up several blanks, dry them out at least 24 hours and cut them into reeds at another time
-- i usually 'tip' my blanks (70mm to fold) by debarking the tip to the fold right after tying on, before drying, this settles the cane into a flatter aperture while drying and discourages the aperture from gaping too wide after clipping open later
-- sometimes i also rough-in my blanks before drying, defining a tip apex and cutting the back windows to the catches (leaving bark on everywhere else), this saves some time when making a new reed later
-- i've also found it very helpful to dip the cane in hand-hot water for 30-60 seconds directly before tying on, especially in winter when the room temperature may be quite cool, this temporarily softens cane some more and helps shape it around the tube quite readily
-- also i've found starting the wrap at appox 43mm (4mm behind top of tube) and tautening each wrap a little bit more up to 47mm less likely to cause cracks, and helps shape the throat quite gently (as compared to wrapping directly at 47mm which is a sudden pull on the cane to shape it around the tube)
-- remember to pencil-mark the cane exactly level with top of tube so you don't overtie cane past 47mm, and after that hold it in place so it doesn't shift up or down
(if you use shorter staples, use that length instead)
hope some of these things help to reduce your laundry basket wastage :-)
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Author: oboesquirell
Date: 2007-07-23 19:21
what i do, as per my teacher, is soak my cane in hot water for about 15 minutes. then, i scrape the ends down a little bit to remove the bark and a little more. i usually never get cracks. about 1 in 30 has a crack, but they don't affect the reed, just the surface.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2007-07-23 21:17
You people are great! This makes perfect sense...kinda like scoring concrete so it will crack where you want it to instead of where it "hurts." And removing the bark makes it more bendable.... My reed making skills have been obtained from the Jay Light book which never mentions any of this. GREAT knowledge. All, thanks so much for your input.
:-)
Jay
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-07-23 21:27
I notice several makers don't chamfer the ends of the cane before tying on at all. When I used to make my own (oboe and cor) reeds I'd cut a nice chamfer on the thin ends so there isn't a shoulder against the staple causing the binding to leave a gap, and also to prevent splits running up the cane as it's tied on. You'll see with bassoon reeds the makers score the cane several time around the outside of the tubular part for the same reason - so it doesn't split during wiring into a tube shape to form the throat.
And yeah, use fairly hot water to soak the cane in, and soak it WELL (so it sinks) before manipulating. I used to place a glass in the water on top of the cane to keep all the pieces of cane submerged so it soaks evenly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-07-23 22:45
I scrape the ends also to tighten the seal of the wound thread, but I know at least one oboist who believes that doing so actually weakens the structural integrity of the cane and promotes splitting! I'll have to try the x-hatch thing.
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2007-07-23 23:22
Hey Jay!
The longer soak, hot water, camphered end... all good. I place the cane in my mouth to warm it just about as long as it takes me to tie off the thread and prepare the staple and mandrel.
Also, here is another thing that helps reduce cracks and has a couple other advantages:
1) Place cane on the mandrel and staple and hold lightly with finger tips of your mandrel hand.
2) Wind two or three winds about half-way up the exposed metal portion of the staple (probably much lower on the cane than you do now)...
3) Then, increase thread tension, and with the mandrel hand turn the mandrel opposite to your direction of wind so the thread creeps up toward the staple end. Stop 1/2 to 1 wind before the staple end.
If you've marked the cane at staple end, you will see this easily, otherwise take careful note of how much metal remains once the cane finally closes.
4) Keep tension tight on the thread and observe both side openings as you go. Sides should close evenly and you can observe them easily from one position and the cane turns round and round.
Any abnormalities such as off center cane placement (sides close unevenly) or cane tilted off line (tip of blank 'wobblse' noticably as you turn the mandrel) mean stop, back off and try again.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-07-23 23:26
"but I know at least one oboist who believes that doing so actually weakens the structural integrity of the cane and promotes splitting!"
It's much easier to bend a single sheet of paper than a thick piece of card, and bending a thick piece of card will only stress it which is why it begins to delaminate and it buckles on the underside. The same with cane - the stresses within a piece of thick cane during bending are far greater than a thinned piece of cane.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-07-24 01:32
... i think it's amazing the short cuts experienced reed-makers can take safely to produce wonderful reeds that would leave us amateurs floundering in the laundry basket
... what's the record speed for producing an acceptable playable reed from a piece of tube cane?
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-07-24 02:11
I've seen Killmer go from a pregouged piece of cane to a great reed in about 5 minutes. Literally.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-07-24 17:05
... about 5 minutes ?!
GASP!
That's awesome!
Well, that shows it can be done
OK, so we understand you correctly, the gouging & shaping work was done already, all he had to do in 5 minutes was fold it, tie it on and cut it?
Would he have wanted to perform professionally on his 5 minute demonstration reeds?
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-07-25 00:24
I think the gouging, shaping and tying took him about 1.5 minutes. It was blindingly fast. It was at the very end of my lesson and I briefly mentioned "Oh, I wanted to see you make a reed today. That's too bad." Ha! I guess he was going to give me all $100 worth of my lesson!
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-07-25 01:15
... gulp! shoulda had a stop-watch on him, maybe he missed Guinness book of Records on that li'l oversight?
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2011-08-07 13:03
Dear All,
Great insights. I have always used an easel to shave down the ends of the cane, but I thought that it was only for cosmetic reasons until I stopped doing so a few days ago. I found that cracking became quite prevalent during tying, which is usually not a problem for me. I'm happy to know that this experience has been confirmed by others.
About Mr. Killmer, by the way, he doesn't make reeds quickly to show off. The super-fast ones often are made to check a gouger setting. With his vast experience, he really does know if the gouge is OK within a few minutes.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-08-08 12:08
I thin the narrow ends of cane from the inside after shaping, leaving the bark intact, because I have a theory that the lateral tensile strength of the bark and outer layers is greater than that of the deeper layers.
I only thin the ends for cosmetic reasons - there is no reason to do it otherwise.
I also try and slack off just a fraction as I do the final wrap-over, in order not to over-compress the cane at this critical juncture. The cane will be the most stressed (torsion) exactly at the throat, and it is here that you should beware.
Before you use a staple examine it closely for burrs or flares at the throat, since this can cause the cane to split or the blades to stand apart, or both.
J.
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