 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-20 16:04
I hate to even ask this question but here goes.
My instructor has said that she plays the reed with the less woody side to her bottom lip. Can someone expand on this? I can see that one side of the oboe reed is thicker than the other, but how does this affect the playing? Or does it? Is it just easier to play on the thinner side? Also, if a reed is getting too soft, can you turn it around and play on the thicker side and make it last longer?
Thanks for any help.
lucyw
(who started playing about a year ago)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-20 16:19
I usually play the reed with the twisted wire end on top, or the 'A' side as I like to call it, but sometimes the same reed will play better on the 'B' side over time.
I generally play on the side which is easier to play on, more responsive across the range and in tune, and use the twisted wire as the guide so I know which side is which.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-07-20 17:04
... ideally (LOL) both sides should be balanced and the same length and play equally well either way up (joke, right?!)
... but in the Real World of human reed making and different embouchures, one blade often plays a bit better on one side only
... just try each reed, find what works best for you, turn reed over as needed, take it each day as it comes
... ID marks or wire twist ends could act as misleading indicators, because reeds change a bit as they blow in, and sometimes they play better the 'wrong' way up once in a while, go ask the weatherman why
... i have a puzzling new reed right now that doesn't do low D one way up but does High D OK, then plays low D when turned over, but not High D! Still not quite sure where to adjust it -- and more critically, which blade needs the adjustment. The camber & thinness look similar at the tip !?!
... think oboists must have a remarkably droll sense of humor to cope with all the variables and still keep their sanity
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-20 17:11
Chris, thanks for answering. I don't seem to see a twisted wire on any of my reeds. I don't make my own reeds (no one to teach that to me). Is the twisted wire on the thinner side?
thanks,
lucyw
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-07-20 18:00
Ironically, i have never bothered to test any sides of the reeds i played and always, habitually, play on the side where the wire is twisted. Weird.......-_-" Time to do so i guess.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2006-07-20 18:19
This is one of those Questions Which Cannot Be Answered.
Why can't it?
Because reeds are so different. It's quite uncommon in the US to wire reeds, but apparently not in other countries.
Some reed makers may make one side deliberately thicker than another, though I've never heard of it before.
Some reed makers deliberately make one side of the reed shorter than the other (by trimming with a razor blade) while others insist that one should *never* use razor blades for trimming, lest one side of the reed end up longer than the other!
I think one of the most instructive aspects of this B-Board is that we learn how varied people's "rules" about playing the oboe are. It took me over a decade to discover that my different oboe teachers had contradictory "rules" and that I had to just figure out what worked for me. I don't know if it's good or bad to expose very new oboe players to such a diversity of opinion. It may be good because, ultimately, everyone must become their own teacher and figure out *on their own* how to advance the art of oboe playing. But it may be bad because so many of the variables of oboe playing are interlinked, and you may be best off starting with one set of rules that work well together--which presumably one gets from a good teacher.
It's probably best to work with just the rules from one teacher until one finds that one can improve by ignoring some of the rules.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-21 02:42
Hmmm... so I guess that I'll just keep experimenting...
I've been reading through some of the older topics and I've picked up a lot of information and ideas. I had never really thought about having practice reeds and concert reeds, although I had set aside a couple of favorite reeds to work with in June, when our band played (what was my first) concert. So, I guess part of that was just common sense.
Also, I've been rotating the reeds when I practice but I hadn't really thought about only playing on one reed for 15 mintues and then going to another one. I was rotating them day by day. Playing reeds for shorter time periods makes sense to me now. It would be less stress on the reeds and it would probably help strengthen my embouchure, as well, since I try to always be using a couple of new reeds, as well as reeds that are broken in.
Now that I'm thinking about more of these things, I'm realizing that there are a lot of questions that I have never asked my teacher regarding reeds. In our sessions, we ususally work on phrasing and dynamics. Now, I feel like I need to go back to square one and make sure that I'm not assuming things that obviously, I don't know. Sigh....
Thanks for the help and input.
lucyw
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-07-25 16:07
I play on reeds designed by my teacher and her husband (a Mack student). They intentionally bevel their tips, and have said that one ought to play with the longer side of the tip on the top.
Speaking with some other oboists this past week, I have gathered that the idea of playing with the longer side on top is pretty much a commonplace -- something that "everybody" (besides me) knows.
It is continually amazing to me how variable the opinions are, about what constitutes a "correct" approach to anything oboe.
Susan
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-25 16:17
Well, that would make sense with what my teacher is doing. She refers to the longer side as the side with more wood on it. I guess that's what she's saying - and what you're saying.
Sometimes when I'm practicing, I turn the reed around when it feels like I'm starting to squash one side too much. Squashing seems to be a bad habit of mine.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-07-25 22:25
... squashing (aka 'drac bite') seems to be very common embouchure problem among early beginners on oboe, yours truly now almost through two years (still a 'beginner') and on excessively firm side, it's a growth & development thing
... if you're squashing one side more than the other, one of your lips is working overtime for the other lip, need to bring weaker lip up to par
... be patient, this takes some time, just keep blowing oboe every day, gets better gradually
... if you're still using taper scrape commercial reeds, your squashing probably closes them up pretty fast, would be good to experiment with hand-made reeds now, these have more structural support
doing these things help me counter-balance my 'drac bite'
... stifle a genuine or faux bored-with-practice! yawn, lips around reed, this drops the jaw, opens the throat, releases tension in back of tongue and throat. Back of tongue pulled up against roof of mouth falsely substitutes as accessory support for under-developed lips, or for tired lips (if tired, stop blowing, go to multiple silent finger reps of difficult note combinations instead)
... when i need a third hand during set up, i often hold reed gently between lips; this is fairly loose position; with only a little more pressure can blow-test the reed hands-free before putting in oboe; use the same feeling of firm but just-right looseness for playing
... there's a tendency to squash more to control air pressure behind the reed, lips need to keep air-tight seal around gums, but weak lips can't hold that very long, so it's important to have a responsive reed with low enough resistance suited to own lip strength
... make as if to whistle (with jaw lowered as normal for whistling), this puts more mid-lip pucker around the reed; play awhile in 'whistle' position and work towards getting a really nice sound in this position
... roll out both lips (really loosen lips) to buzz the reed (this is opposite extreme to tightness, so it's a corrective, but not the way to play)
... do lip roll over / roll out exercises frequently on drinking straw exerciser
(hey, folks! i've found a terrific use for fibercane reeds, they make really Xcellent Embouchure Xercisers, they don't wear out fast like straws, don't break as easily as real reeds, plus they crow and do sustained sound)
... whenever doing breath exchanges, make lips into O, suck in sides of cheeks, can't do that if teeth too close together, especially strengthening position when blowing out, maintain lower jaw position afterwards
... this one's hard, but much practice improves things ... tuck lower jaw backwards a notch into neck, so upper lip is overhanging the lower lip (buck teeth effect) this makes it necessary to plump up more flesh on both lips, to make good reed contact
... however, having said all that, one-year old embouchure might not be ready to move on to better things, so for now, select just one of these 'antidotes' to work with for now. During daily practice, just go for as long as lips can handle it until you reach squashing stage, stop daily practice right there, tomorrow, try and go a minute or so longer, etc ...
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-07-25 23:32
The one thing I do somewhat disagree with is the straw exercises/fibercane reed exercises - it encourages a gripping, or "holding on to" of the reed. In reality the reed is meant to be freely blowing in loose lips. (American style that is!) It is supported by the oboe, which is supported by the right hand.
I think the best practice is to use the real reed, blowing into it, feeling how the embouchure acts as a complement to the air, rather than "developing the embouchure" abstractly, and separately from the oboe. Embouchure development is not solely strength, nor is it solely flexibility NOR is it a simple combination of the two. A trained embouchure is one that is flexible enough, and strong enough (these are whole and seperate entities!!!) to deal with, and make small corrections to, the tremendous power of the wind.
If the embouchure is giving out frequently - one must ask why, rather than simply accept it as fact and stop playing for the day.
-Do I have a bad reed?
-Am I not blowing enough, and therefore compensating by biting?
-Am I working too much: blowing too little/much for the given dynamic?
-is the oboe leaking?
-is the reed leaking?
If any of these are true...fix them! Of course, a leaky reed usually ends up going head first into the table!!!!!
The thing is, endurance/embouchure strength itself is something that doesn't really take very long to achieve. (consequently, and unfortunately, it is VERY easily lost - frequent practice is the remedy) The problem usually lies in playing incorrectly for extended periods of time.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-07-25 23:37
The reed should be built to be equally thick and resistant on both sides - that's the way a double reed works. If it isn't, I would toss the reed - or ask someone to adjust it for you. Try to soak and check the reeds out in the store before you buy them. If you buy them mail-order from a reed store and they come like this... send them back - it's not acceptable! If they won't exchange them, find a different reedmaker. No matter what level/age you simply can't tolerate non-functioning reeds. One can live - and we all do - with an old reed that's a little worn out, or a fresh reed that's a little excited, but if the reed is fundamentally not set up properly, you have to get one that is.
Also, you may notice some flattening out if you are biting the reed too much.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2006-07-26 03:03
I agree with d-oboe, none of my teachers has ever suggested doing any embouchure work away from the oboe. It just takes a lot of practice and experimentation to arrive at an embouchure that works and allows you to play with enough endurance. I wouldn't waste my time doing exercises away from the oboe since it's possible that what works away from the oboe may not work for actual music making. A good crow is nice but no one will buy a ticket to hear it.
WRT reeds, I try to make my reeds balanced on both sides although I do clip with a razor blade and there is a very slight difference in the length of the blades as a result, but I don't pay any attention to it, I just stick it in the oboe and play.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-07-26 04:12
I got some very good advice about embouchure and tone production from the oboe clinician at the workshop I attended this past week.
I was asking her all sorts of questions about air and embouchure, projecting the air down into the instrument, etc.
She told me that she used to worry a lot about those things, too, until she had a lesson with Joe Robinson. His suggestion to her (and hers to me)was simply to "play against the resistance of the air." (I think I am quoting that correctly -- definitely the gist, if not the exact words.)
As I experience that, it means that you don't "control" your embouchure or your reed, but rather you have to interact with the air as it feeds back to you from the instrument.
I think this is pretty much what d-oboe said earlier, that it's more a matter of "feeling how the embouchure acts as a complement to the air, rather than 'developing the embouchure' abstractly."
Once you get this, it is surprising how easy it is to get a REALLY nice tone and sustain it consistently over the whole range of the instrument. It also gives me a fresh perspective on what it means to have "responsive" reeds: the reed must respond fairly readily to the air you provide, but then YOU must respond to it. It's the air that is doing most of the work, not your lips.
Susan
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-26 06:12
Ok, I'll try some of these. Thanks so much. I try to stop the squashing as soon as I realize that I'm doing it. I think that I'm doing it in order to control the tone and pitch. I guess that's why most beginners do it, yes?
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-26 06:25
Hmm, ok so I can see that I need to pay closer attention to the interaction of the air.
In an earlier thread, it was suggested that I may be playing as far down the oboe as the G (is was a thread that talked about water in the horn, gurgling at the G, etc.), so after I read that I became more aware of how far down the horn I was sending the air. I'm not sure that I'm putting this well, but in any case, it helped to connect me better with where the air actually is in the horn.
I probably haven't said this but I really appreciate all of the help and information that many of you have given. Sept. will be the anniversary of when I got a reed that I could play on - it will be my first anniversary on the oboe. I don't regret the years of playing clarinet in my youth but I'm still happily in awe of the oboe and I love playing it. Anyway, thanks to all of you.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-07-26 09:42
d-oboe enjoy your comments, food for thought and discussion
<<The one thing I do somewhat disagree with is the straw exercises/fibercane reed exercises - it encourages a gripping, or "holding on to" of the reed ... the reed is meant to be freely blowing in loose lips ... It is supported by the oboe, which is supported by the right hand ... think the best practice is to use the real reed, blowing into it, feeling how the embouchure acts as a complement to the air, rather than "developing the embouchure" abstractly, and separately from the oboe.>>
Yes, you've stated the desirable Goal for embouchure development, and i've got a creative means to that same end. Real reed is used in oboe once a day. All other extra uses of reed creative, but considering reed short lifespan, why use it up faster? Substitute gets good results.
Gripping the reed is a very common beginners problem, not caused by substituting a straw for a real reed. If anything, the sense of pressure caused by oboe's weight on the reed encourages gripping until the correct posture and support is fully provided by a strengthened right thumb, wrist, hand, arm, shoulder & back muscles. Embouchure also has to contain incredible air pressure without leaking air around gums or puffing cheeks, and until the facial / jaw muscles are strong enough, gripping the reed is a fairly normal happening in beginners' attempt to control everything for sound that's not too ugly. On top of that, the oboe player has to learn how to breathe altogether differently, what normal life does that? So, when the embouchure (etc) is strong enough for these things, it's time to move on to developing flexibility. Exercises on reed substitutes evolve to meet the need. This is all built up over time with regular practice at it.
Consider situations such as:
- few playable reeds, with more need to conserve them rather than use them up, result of limited budget, poor accessibility, low success rate during the learning process of making own reeds
- limited hours at civilized times of day to blow one's horn, because it doesn't mesh with other family lives, work hours, meal-times and life's many other chores. Hobbyist oboe players, no matter how committed, lead another life, and figure out how to fit oboe into it.
These situations need workable solutions to get good results. My creative solutions are 'abstract' silent fingering practice, 'abstract' air support exercises for dynamics, embouchure & articulation exercises on substitutes -- all of which require considerable mental concentration for identifying the muscles at work, and accuracy using 'abstract' mechanical devices such as playback on earphones or metronome
The point about silence here is that all these exercises can be scheduled at times when it wouldn't be convenient or realistic for blowing practice. They can be fitted into odd moments during the day, don't have to be all at once. This doesn't mean i don't blow at all, it simply means that if it's not possible to blow any given day in a week, i have supplemental options that provide good results, instead of skipping that day's practice altogether, never a good option.
Bonus 1 -- i don't martyr myself by actually hearing every single mistake i make in the slow and repetitive process of fingering or articulating correctly, gradually building up to full tempo, and those scales / technical exercises are little tunes that go round and round in one's head in endless circles that make musical cages if heard too many times, i certainly don't have the right to inflict that on anybody else -- this essential part of practice isn't music, it's noise! Cut the sound out until the body does it OK, then play it (woe, lots of room for improvement noted!)
Bonus 2 -- next blowing practice, OK, body's co-operating better, now can concentrate on beautifying the tone and polishing the musical interpretation, family says you're playing great today, morale boost!
Yes, there are still improvements & corrections to make, wouldn't there be likewise in any two year oboe student profile?
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-26 15:16
d-oboe = "If the embouchure is giving out frequently - one must ask why, rather than simply accept it as fact and stop playing for the day. "
I'm not sure how to judge this (in relation to other more experienced oboe players). For practicing on my own, I usually sit and play for 60 to 90 minutes. For other rehearsals (wind ensemble or band rehearsals) we play for 2 to 3 hours. So, an average day of playing will be one to three hours depending on the day's schedule.
I don't have a problem with the embouchure giving out unless I am trying to break in a new reed. Twenty minutes of working with a new, stiff reed will shorten my available blowing time considerably! I can see the wisdom of learning to make your own reeds. Now, I just have to figure out how to learn that. Is it possible to learn reed making from just a book, or do I need a human to help teach me?
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-07-26 17:53
<< Is it possible to learn reed making from just a book, or do I need a human to help teach me?>>
Possible and certainly worthwhile to familiarize yourself with reed-making theory from books, videos, websites
Essential to have experienced human to help you with the actual doing of it
ask oboe teacher to show you, or if not skilled there, refer you to someone who is, or maybe oboe specialist at northwest music, prussin or long & mcquade in vancouver can help connect you with somebody out where you live, it takes more than a few lessons
don't get into bundles of tube cane, splitting, gouging etc. right now, start with ready-to-tie cane, just getting good tools for this part of the process is expensive enough
also, do some online price & quality comparisons on ready-to-tie cane, don't get pro quality cane or other cane priced likewise for learning curve wastage
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-28 15:48
Thanks so much. I'll contact the music shops that you mentioned and see if they're doing any classes on reed making. Thanks again.
By the way, I just got a couple of reeds in the mail from a well established reed maker and now I know exactly what people have been talking about when they say "responsive reeds" - whoa! These reeds don't hide any flaws. They'll be great for practice but I wouldn't dare use them in public. 
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