 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-07-06 19:03
Hello real oboists,
I'm a clarinet and sax player trying to re-learn oboe after a very long hiatus, and I'm trying to get calibrated to the oboe community's terms for oboe tone. I realize that it's almost impossible to adequately describe sound using words -- we run into this dilemma all the time on the Clarinet BB, trying to decide what 'dark' and 'bright' clarinet tone qualities are, for example.
So, my all-time favorite oboe sounds belong to the following players, and I would be interested in hearing your verbal 'categorizations' of their respective sounds:
1) John de Lancie
2) John Mack
3) Lothar Koch
Thanks in advance!
Dave Spiegelthal
Virginia, USA
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-06 20:06
Strangely enough David, I was thinking of doing a sound categorising thread a while back - basically wondering which player we feel we're mostly inspired by.
But the problem for me is that there are too many different sounds I like depending on the situation, and trying to narrow it down to one player in particular is pretty hard work!
So I'm torn between (in no specific order) Leon Goosens, Heinz Holliger, Maurice Borgue, John Anderson, Gordon Hunt, Albrecht Meyer, Alan Vogel, ....
I know the particular clarinet sound I like (and try to emulate), as well as the sax sound (on each of soprano, alto, tenor and bari) and flute sound, but for oboe it's a tricky one.
But I do know the players who's sounds I don't like.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-07-06 22:50
Wow, Chris --
You do cover the waterfront with your choices, there! Heinz Holliger and Leon Goosens on the same list!
But I know what you mean. You like each one for a different quality, and each, in his own terms, is an excellent artist.
My favorite on your list is Gordon Hunt. In fact, I am finding myself very drawn to the Brits that I have heard.
I have also heard some Elaine Douvas that is just "to die for", and Joe Robinson is no slouch, either.
David S. --
My teacher (who is of the John Mack lineage) concurs in the idea that there is no "correct" oboe sound -- only a well-played oboe sound. There are "darker" and "lighter", or perhaps "heavier" and "lighter" sounds within any given school of oboe playing. Some styles allow for, or emphasize, a sort of buzziness or graininess to the tone (which I like, to an extent), while other schools -- the American would fall into this -- emphasize smoothness, roundness, sweetness of tone.
I'm not sure yet how to rank the components of technique which create whichever sound. I believe that the design of the instrument plays a significant part in a player's sound, as does the construction of the reed, as well as the player's embouchure, oral and nasal cavities, pharynx, and general bone structure.
To that end, I agree with whomever it was who wrote on a thread here not too long ago that no matter the oboe or the reed, a player generally ends up sounding like him- or herself. And according to my teacher, as long as you've got the embouchure and breath under control, that's perfectly all right -- that it's actually true that it's OK, or even inevitable, for every oboist to sound a little different. Vive le difference!
Susan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-06 23:15
And as I like both the bright, buzzy and lively sound and also the thick, heavy and dark sound it's a bit of a dilemma.
Which sound should I make? I have reeds that do both extremes - I like both sounds but really I have to make the sound deemed appropriate for the type of music - though I am biased towards the bright and buzzy.
Though Heinz Holliger gets away with his (excellent) sound playing both Baroque and Berio - so for him one sound suits all.
The diversity of individual oboe playing styles is ginormous - perhaps even more so than any other instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-07-07 02:14
I realized after putting up my previous post here that perhaps we haven't answered David's question at all. Interesting how the mind goes its own way sometimes.
I am quite sure that different listeners would categorize the sound of the individuals listed in David's question differently, depending on a whole lot of variables (including whether the impression was gathered from live playing, or from recordings only, and whether from many hearings on different works, or from a limited exposure).
Of the three listed (De Lancie, Mack, Koch), I have seriously listened only to John Mack. I do have a CD of De Lancie, but the reproduction quality is not the best, and probably not representative of his sound. I have not listened to Koch, except for excerpts.
In my opinion, Mack has certainly the sweetest, lightest, smoothest sound -- very fluid. De Lancie's is more like Mack's than like Koch's, without question, but seems a tad edgier (or is it due to recording technology that emphasizes the high partials?). Koch's sound, of course, is very German -- heavier, "grainier", a kind of meat-and-potatoes sound, if you will. All of these are great players.
Here's a link to a site that has lots and lots of clips of outstanding oboists, categorized by nationality, for further comparison and contrasting:
http://www.oboistgallery.8m.net/
Happy listening!
Susan
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-07-07 15:40
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies so far, folks. I should have noted that all my oboe listening has been through orchestral recordings of the three gentlemen listed (that would be of course Philadelphia, Cleveland and Berlin) and all three players are very well represented on the many recordings of their respective orchestras, so that's where my 'oboe tonal education' (such as it is) comes from. I have no idea how these guys sounded live or in smaller settings than a full orchestra.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2006-07-07 16:14
I suspect that each of them sounds better in person than on the recordings. In most cases, of the oboists I've heard both "up close" in recital, with the orchestra, and on recordings, I thought the recordings didn't do them justice as far as tone was concerned.
Back to the original question though, I think it's very difficult to describe a sound with words -- but I'll bite...
1) John de Lancie - His sound is light and clear, but with lots of depth and a little fuzziness (sizzle?) on top.
2) John Mack - Darker than de Lancie, but not at all dull and lots of depth as well.
For both of these men I think you can hear Tabuteau's influence in the sound. But still they sound very different.
It's interesting to compare the sounds of their students as well. For example, I think it's easy to hear de Lancie's sound in Richard Woodhams, Marilyn Zupnik and Kathy Greenbank. And Mack's sound in Jon Dlouhy and Elaine Douvas.
Of the non-american oboists, my favorite sound is Gordon Hunt. For me, he has a clarity that is unmatched.
I think they all sound wonderful.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-07-07 16:19
I've always loved de Lancie's use of vibrato -- he doesn't have constant, single-speed vibrato like most oboists (or flautists, for that matter) -- instead on long tones, he often starts the tone senza vibrato, then brings in the vibrato gradually, speeding it up during the note. Wonderful stuff! I wish more players did that.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-07 20:20
That's one thing I do like to do and make a meal of doing - start a long tone without any vibrato and then begin with a slow vibrato speeding up towards the next note, making sure the next note doesn't blurt out or start too quietly in comparison.
This is another thing that most oboists do more so than other woodwind players - they know when to, and when not to use vibrato.
I bought a recording of Strauss' 'Sinfonia Domestica' (and the Suite in Bb) with the Minnesota Orchestra/De Waart, and to be honest I don't like any of the wind players sounds - the flutes lay on the vibrato with a JCB, even on staccato notes! The oboes are very weaak and their vibrato makes it sound like they're playing repeated notes, such is the wide amplitude of their vibrato, the clarinets have soggy tongueing (though they do have a fairly full sound). And the brass sound like they've just stepped off the parade square.
Even though my oboe teacher is from Minnesota, she can't stand American oboists and their style of reed.
Another thing I missed while not playing oboe for about 10 years was playing Baroque music - when I studied clarinet it was only music from the earliest time the clarinet was first popular (Mozart, Weber, etc. and I'm not a huge classical music fan ) up to the 2Oth century. But oboe music goes back to early Baroque which suits me - I only really discovered Baroque playing on taking up oboe again - before that I didn't play any instruments suited to Baroque repertoire (clarinet and sax) so I missed out back then, but I've made inroads since.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-07-08 03:20
Ah what a wonderful topic to discuss about!
Han De Vries (Sad that these days not many people know him, i just bought an EMI double disc reissue of his baroque recordings on both baroque and modern oboe), Heinz Holliger, John De Lancie, Gordon Hunt (will be hearing him perform this august, what a treat!) and Leon Goosens tops my list, in terms of how they are able to move me, not by sound but by how they 'use' their sound to convey emotions in the music.
Some players i find have the most glorious tone, the darkest biggest tones, but they don't exhibit the same artistic factor which you can find from the players i mentioned above, but of course, one must remember i must have missed a lot of other players (OF COURSE!)
David, i find De Lancie's vibrato very attractive too! Han De Vries has a glorious vibrato and i think it is totally oppositie of De Lancie's concept but yes, non the less it is always always beautifully applied. I have a recording of De Lancie doing Strauss and The Flower Clock etc with the London Symphony and Andre Previn which is absolutely beautiful! And the recording quality is in fact superb. I recommend everyone to get this!
Going back to David's original question....
John De Lancie - Very transparent and light, but not lacking body.
John Mack - Very dark and big sound, but a very flexible sound.
Lothar Kock - I am surprised you like styles that are so much in contrast!
The old school German playing which is still recognizable in
orchestras such as the Leipzig Gewandhaus is one of the
most difficult to learn in terms of technique from what i know.
Though i don't find it the most atrractive. Lothar Kock sounds
rather full in tone but has an edge in the shape of the sound
that doenst appeal to me, sort of strident. On the other hand,
the younger players like Albrecth Mayer nowadays has lose
the edge and has generally grown much warmer in tone.
Douglas Boyd is one player that you cannot forget after one hearing, and he sounds very much the same in his orchestral recoridngs compared to his chamber recordings. This is because of his way of 'pushing' the tone, which is easily identified as his trade mark. This sort of characteristics are hard to find in other players nowadays, and usually chamber records don't do the artists any justice due to the weird pick up of overtones and etc that make phrases sound weird etc.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-07-08 07:03
not an oboe player, but an appriciator...
To me, I just didn't muchlike the sound of any of the north american players by comparison, prefering an assortment of european players.
-JfW
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-07-08 07:07
David,
What sound have you got in mind?
I mean this in terms of the sound you're aiming to produce as a player - I know it's a tough question as there are too many variables, but have you got a specific sound that you want to achieve as an oboist?
I know a lot of oboe players (and other woodwind players as well) that don't have a specific influence and it shows in their tone and playing. I think it's good to have an idea and then put it into practice.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Baron
Date: 2006-07-08 15:28
I believe that you should only be slightly influecned by the pros. you want to have a unique tone. Back in the day you could tell the difference of symphonies by listening to the oboe players. We need to have our own sound. play how you feel.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-07-08 17:28
>>play how you feel<<
Sure, but take the time to educate your feelings first. Which means, listen widely to other oboists, both live and Memorex.
In time, you will recognize and RESPECT the achievement of the great players who have gone before you. Take what you like, leave the rest, but understand, it really isn't all about you.
Susan
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Author: lucyw
Date: 2006-07-10 18:35
Ooh, fun list! Thanks so much. I hadn't heard most of these so this is great. I'm new at the oboe, so I'm deep into exploring recordings, artists, etc.
LucyW
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2006-07-12 23:45
Sometimes I feel nauseated, but I don't want to sound nauseous.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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