 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2013-12-12 12:14
Hi all,
I have a burning question about what is appropriate for a director to request in regard to intonation on an oboe.
I am quite sure that in my earlier years as an oboist, my pitch was all over the place. As I have matured on the instrument, I have gotten pretty good at playing within a narrow range of deviation from a scale based on A=440 -- using stable reeds, good embouchure, knowing the tendencies of each note and fingering, etc. I have always thought that this was a good thing.
So, last night, the cellist in the small ensemble with which I was rehearsing ended up at least 25 cents flat on a final note, and instead of asking the cellist to come up to pitch, the director told me, as the oboist, to come down to the cellist's pitch.
Her assertion is that the oboist must be prepared to come down or up to the pitch of others in any given situation, even when the others are playing massively out of tune.
I understand than an ensemble needs to be in tune with itself, and not the tuner. And I generally don't have a problem pitching up, but I really have trouble pitching down, esp. when playing on a very stable reed. My experience is that there are just points below which I cannot go.
When I tell the director this, she just tells me that her sister is an oboist and she can do it.
Leaving aside for a moment the question of why a director would ever ask the one in tune to match the one NOT in tune, how much downward pitch flexibility SHOULD I be able to command?
Susan
Post Edited (2013-12-12 13:34)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JRC
Date: 2013-12-12 14:22
This is just my opinion: I would just shout out to the cellist: "You are flat!" Show the tuner to the cellist and correct the intonation of the cellist. Unless the intonation of the whole ensemble's intonation drifted down for some reason and need to finish the final notes sensibly. The music must makes sense before being "correct" in individual note basis.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2013-12-12 14:32
If it's an open string on the cello and it happens once, the cellist is screwed and you need to help out by adjusting your tuning to help out. The cellist should retune as soon as practicable.
If it's a fingered note the cellist should adjust as necessary and retune as soon as practicable. You will probably need to help with adjusting your tuning if the cellist is inexperienced. The mis-tuned open string will still be a problem, and there may have to be more adjusting throughout the scale to keep the open string from standing out. Ears work wonders for this :-)
If the cellist thinks they're in tune but they're not ... strings are relatively easy to tune!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-12-12 14:45
Several years ago I played at a high church service where the organ was tuned (or had detuned) to around around 432-435Hz, so it was hard work for us woodwinds to play down to pitch. The Royal Marines oboist had to play a solo during communion and struggled to play that low for the duration. In this instance there isn't much that can be done as the organ can't be retuned within a short time period, likewise with pianos which have lost their tuning.
But quite honestly why any woodwind player should have to play down to a flat pitched stringed instrument is beyond belief when they're the ones that have the ability to tune their instruments to any pitch within reason within seconds - we can't do much as our instruments are built to a specific pitch with very little leeway. While we all have to play in tune with the ensemble, if the general pitch goes too far either way, there isn't much we can do.
I was doing Seussical the other week and had a look over at the glockenspiel (made by Yamaha) which had 442Hz stamped on one of the bars. Similarly, flutes tend to be built to 442Hz nowadays which explains the sharp 8ves, especially the upper register and top register which are often painfully sharp if the player hasn't done much to correct it. The hardest thing I have to do is play in tune with flutes and the rest of the ensemble as flutes push the pitch up and clarinets pull the pitch down. Bassoons are all over the place as are some horns when they use some natural harmonics which are out of tune with other instruments (usually the 7th harmonic which is flat).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMarzluf
Date: 2013-12-12 16:08
Attachment: Screen Shot 2013-12-12 at 9.00.06 AM.jpg (162k)
At the risk of getting too technical, look at the chart I have attached, above. The column at the right shows the deviation, in cents, from "Equal Temperament" (which your tuner, and all fixed pitch instruments like piano, organ, marimba, etc., use) to "Just Temperament" (which is used by any ensemble of traditional "Western" instruments, like your chamber orchestra). Keep in mind that "Just" intonation is dependent on a particular key or tonality, so you must think in terms of tuning intervals, not individual pitches on your horn. For instance, A=440hz is fine in A Major, but won't work in F Major where A is the Major third, and must be played down by almost 14 cents.
So, if we build our oboe, reed, and habits to a 440hz reference point, we must still be prepared to move any note as many as 31.17 cents down (in the case of a minor seventh), or up as many as 15.64 cents (minor thirds). This is further complicated when we modulate to new keys -- we can end up cranking the overall pitch up or down pretty significantly on our way through a less stable work.
In short, intonation is a thing of the moment, not the day. We have to be flexible to be "right." That having been said, any rogue cellist and his/her buddy on the podium who attempts to mess with an oboist's pitch center should be shot (cellist first -- business before pleasure).
Jonathan
http://www.marzlufreeds.com/
Post Edited (2013-12-12 16:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2013-12-12 16:39
I fully agree with all the comments above. But in Montreal "we" (all wind instruments) were taught "if the other guy is out of tune, it's my fault" (for not compensating)..... I don't know how well strings are taught the same.
Johnathan, I'm not sure how to read the chart you linked.... I had posted this link on Facebook http://www.pianosupply.com/cents-hz/
which suggests that 25 cents is a quarter-tone..... on a "one-off" scenario, this should not be overly difficult..... otherwise 20th century music would be torture!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: wrowand
Date: 2013-12-12 18:58
Robin:
I believe 50 cents is a quarter tone. 100 cents is a half step.
Jonathan:
Concerning the 31.17 cents difference between a just minor seventh and an equal tempered minor seventh:
As a harmonic interval, I think it's likely that there will be some other chord tone that you can tune to rather than trying to tune the minor seventh.
I think it's more common to see the frequency ratio of that interval as 16/9 (a fourth above the fourth, -3.9 cents from equal-tempered) or 9/5 (a minor third above the fifth, +17 cents from equal tempered), both of which are closer to the equal-tempered interval than the 7/4 ratio in your screenshot.
Best regards,
Woody
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2013-12-12 21:50
There is little excuse for the cellist to be low in pitch. Cellists should always tune their open strings before the rehearsal and they should normally stay there for a while. If one of the top three strings on a cello is too low, the normal cellist can easily and simply play that open string note on the next lowest string. First finger in fourth position is very easy to find. For the bottom C string being low, the cellist can finger low C hard up against the nut to bring it up to pitch.
A442 is a common center pitch for flutes these days as a marketing situation, allowing the flutes to be sold all over the world easily. It is very easy to play these flutes at A440 with no problem. Flutists in amateur groups often play the third register very sharp because they have not been taught the proper embouchure, how to play in tune up there, and that they should use a tuner to check up there. The flute teachers rarely mention it, often because they do not play in tune up there either. Conductors don't always detect sharp flutists because the pitch range is much higher than many other instruments.
An oboist cannot be expected to follow the flutists pitch as they rise in going up the scale or to go way flat to match an out of tune cello. With a stable reed, the oboe is challenged enough to get in the ballpark of A440.
More than once, I've heard from conductors "Oboe out of tune!" when the clarinetist failed to change instruments from Bb to A, which shows that the conductor does not have perfect hearing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2013-12-25 01:57
Suzan,
That can really be a sticky wicket for lots of reasons. JMarzluf has studied a lot of the tuning theory I was taught and the subtleties of just Vs. equal tempered tuning make for some interesting opportunities like pure thirds at cadence points, etc.
But someone way out of tune should not have the support of the director, who IMHO should immediately address it since it is a reh. and the time to practice corrections if needed, or have the group retune for a few seconds.
Pitch will float around a bit and some instruments have different tendencies from others for simple things like FF Vs. PP playing with some going in opposite directions (think flute and clarinet at FF).
Give and take for sure, but it it gets 1/4 tone out of line (or worse) in reh. I stop, hold up my hand and request a tuning moment. 1st few times it gets some people a little upset. Later, a couple other things happen... better overall tuning just happens, and then if retuning is needed it happens quickly.
I have a private conversation with concert master and they usually agree to pick up on the signal and stand and request the tuning.
I am talking about community orchs not pro ones.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2013-12-26 09:10
Wes,
Flute is a 2ndry instrument and huge passion of mine and I agree with everything you said about their propensities for sharpness in the 3rd octave.
I find they tend to float aprox.20 cents sharp and have had several otherwise really good players just insist their flutes will only play sharp up there.
So, I like to ask to play their flute , bet a beer, turn on a tuner and show them otherwise.
It is SO EASY to adjust the flute pitch, and to your point while not becoming a slave to a tuner, they really need to practice a lot with it.
And these days the web resources, Galway lectures, etc., just keep proving the simple pipe can really be played in nearly perfect tuning with minimal effort.
Flat cellos though, different matter.... Tabuteau would have pulled out a reed knife and removed the offending strings.
Muhaa! and cheers.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2013-12-31 13:39
Craig, do you drink the beer before or after the test? Seriously, I think that it is difficult to discuss tuning with flute players. If they are very sharp in the third register, they may not be willing to work on it, especially if they have played first flute in the group for 20 years and no one has complained about sharpness before. I've seen some otherwise competent flute players in community bands who are so sharp on the high notes and who would be unapproachable on tuning. Good luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2014-01-03 01:37
It is important to drink the beer first, then burp a little, play and the a pitch will come down right away... Try that on oboe, too. It is a very funny effect.
This approach is a great ice breaker and once the flute players stop crying in laughter, they are more open and amenable to treating their Helmholtz resonators with an improved understanding of the opposing variables at play, namely stand-off distance as the major variable working in opposition to air speed.
Now, the real trick is getting the beer into the reh. in the first place.
(Any carbonated beverage will work.... it is just funnier with beer.)...:)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-03 14:07
Carbon dioxide being heavier than air will bring the pitch down. The worst possible thing to do when playing oboe is have a can of Coke or any other carbonated (fizzy) drink.
Due to the very high breath resistance, if you burp while playing a long phrase, the pitch will drop to around a minor 3rd and stay there until you fully exhale and inhale a fresh breath. Not so much of a problem with flute or sax as a few notes will drop, then they'll come back up to pitch as the excess CO2 will have been breathed out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
