 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-02 13:55
I had asked this question before and got good advice, but some clarification needed.
When its time to put the octave vent back in, the other thread mentioned sealing it with wax: what kind of wax?
* birthday candle wax (parafine)?
* wax from mini-bombel cheese?
* wax from Kiwi shoe polish?
Is it best to apply to the body-wood or to the screw threads of the vent?
And I'm gessing the best way to clean the brass vent is to let it soak in lighter fluid?
Thanks.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-02 14:22
Beeswax or paraffin wax will be fine to seal the insert in with (the top part with the vent hole) so it can be undone easily when you want to remove it for cleaning and the wax can be melted again to reseal it with. On plastic instruments, use cork grease to avoid melting the plastic.
Some people may be against sealing the 8ve inserts in with anything, but it's always best to so there aren't any leaks as you can't guarantee an airtight seal with just metal-on-metal contact and the chances are they will leak, so it's always best to seal than not to seal.
The lower part (the well) that fits into the body should be glued in with shellac so it won't come undone easily (but it will come undone with heat if you have to remove it).
Don't apply the wax to the screw thread on the insert as it could run down and block off the vent hole (which you'll then have to unblock with a needle spring of around 0.7mm depending on the make). But apply the wax to the underside of the flange on the insert instead as it's flat and will seal against the top of the well - so heat the insert in a clean flame (from a gas torch or bunsen burner) and apply the wax to the underside of the flange and screw it back in place before the wax cools.
You can clean them in vinegar to remove oxides and mineral deposits, then wash and degrease them thoroughly before installing them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-03-02 15:47)
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-03-02 14:52
Robin/Chris,
I use 91% isopropyl alcohol, a soak for about three minutes then a scrub with a a mini conical dental brush. I ream out the hole with a fiber from a plastic bristled kitchen pot scrubber. I used to seal with parafin then tried with no sealer; on my Loree there are no leaks after doing this (without sealer) I like the idea of sanitizing the insert with the alcohol, but I suppose vinegar, lighter fluid or maybe even vodka would be just as effective. Carl Sawicki recommends parafin as a sealer, if memory serves. The inserts are not interchangeable, so clean & replace one at a time so as not to mix them up. I should mention that before reinstalling I spritz them with a shot of Woodwind All & ream out the receiving hole with a pipe cleaner soaked with a shot of Woodwind All.
Best,
john
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Author: Alphons
Date: 2011-03-02 15:45
I always use silicone grease to put back the octave inserts.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-03-02 17:27
My first teacher was one who did not believe in sealing the vents, and I have never done so, although when I have sent my oboe off for maintenance, it usually comes back with the vents sealed in with beeswax.
I can't imagine shellacking them, as Chris P. suggests, because they have to be removed every so often, in my experience. If that's your pleasure, however, a light coat of clear nail polish would probably work, too.
I read on one site (the old SUNY-Freedonia oboe site -- it has changed since then) where the professor stated that, in some cases, the octave vents might have to be cleaned out DAILY!
I've never done it quite that often, and in fact, if the vents are fouling that often, it would seem to me that there might be some other issue needing to be dealt with.
But keeping the octave vents clean and free is a major component of keeping the oboe playing well, so in my estimation, the simpler one can make the procedure, the better.
Susan
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Author: JMarzluf
Date: 2011-03-02 18:12
I thoroughly clean my vents 4-6 times a year, using vodka and a small brush, followed by a quick pass with the same drill bit I used to make the vent hole (I have had to slightly enlarge both vent holes on every oboe I've ever owned). I have come up with a little sealing routine that may help some of you:
Using a razor blade, I take thin (approx. .5 mm thick or less) slices from the side of a cake of bee's wax, forming little "sheets" of the stuff. I press these onto waxed paper. I then use round cutters made from brass tubing (as would be used for cutting pads from sheet cork) to make little wax washers, just the right size to fit the under-side of the vent insert. I find that the wax is soft enough that it "squishes" nicely under the pressure of the vent being installed tightly, without the need for heat. I always have to clean up a little bit of wax that comes oozing out from under the insert.
Hope this helps someone!
Jonathan
http://www.marzlufreeds.com/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-02 19:09
The wells are glued into the body with shellac and the tops are sealed into the wells with wax - that's standard practice and ensures the lot doesn't come undone when you remove the tops.
On the rare occasion you have to remove the wells, then you will either need to make a special tool for this (which is basically an 8ve top specific for the instument silver soldered to a brass rod mounted in a wooden handle which you heat up enough to melt the shellac) or have an oboe specialist do this when they have to.
You should never need to remove the wells unless they get really coated in mineral deposits or the threads get stripped or the instrument cracks between the 8ves. Most cleaning of the wells can be done with them in situ once the tops have been removed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-03-02 23:00
<<Most cleaning of the wells can be done with them in situ once the tops have been removed.>>
Thanks for that, Chris P. It has always seemed reasonable to me that simply blowing air through the vents, or poking carefully (I put a swab in the bore whenever I poke anything through any opening, so if I slip, I will hit the swab and not the backside of the instrument) with a bristle or wire or the like, would do just about as much good as removing the vent and soaking it, etc.
However, I must say, there has been more than one time when the actual act of removing the vent, soaking it, brushing it, and so forth as detailed in various schema above, has proven magically restorative. I do not know why this should be, I only know it does seem to be that way.
There is a vent-remover tool available for this task. It is a mean bugger, and pretty expensive, but beats shipping the oboe off to a repair person every time the vents foul.
Susan
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-03-02 23:09
Ah! It just crossed my mind that perhaps what Chris P. is explaining and what I am thinking about are two different things.
When Chris is talking about "wells," he is talking about the part that the vent insert fit into, am I correct?
Well, even though I am a bit of an inveterate tinkerer, I have not even once considered how I might remove the WELL which holds the vent! In fact, I didn't know that was even on the table.
So, removing the vents is one thing. Removing the wells, quite another.
Susan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-03 13:11
If you are handy with pieces of steel and other hand tools (saws, files, etc.), you can fabricate your own 8ve insert remover - or you could adapt a crab fork to use as one as they're about the right size and only have the two prongs which can be filed to fit the holes in the 8ve tops.
An adjustable one is usually better as it will cater for nearly all makes, but a fixed one will suffice if it's only your own instruments you need it for.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-24 01:01
I finally removed the vents from Dr. Jones (my 1921 Pan-American... made in Indiana!).
They are one piece metal slugs screwed directly into the wood. The wood was rather dirty.... I hope that was saw dust and not mold....
So for the metal threads directly in the wood, would you still recommend parafin?
Thanks.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-24 01:34
Yeah - warm up the inserts over a gas flame and melt the wax on them, then screw them in while the wax is still molten. Don't overtighten them if they're being screwed directly into the wood as you can strip the threads.
If in doubt about heating them up, use cork grease instead.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-31 21:51
I really hope Chris is still getting notifications on this!
Good thing I can't play for another week: on my beginner model, I thought the vents were one-piece slugs, but as I took them out a 2nd time, one of them came apart, exposing the 2-part inner/outer threads!
Now, one came out completely and I had to separate the parts carefully outside the instrument, but the other one left the threaded ring inside the body. I'm quite satisfied that the ring will leak air, so is there a safe way to get it out for sealing?
Thanks!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-31 23:32
You're best using cork grease on the wells (the part that screws into the body) as well as the tops to seal them - so put the inserts in the wells using cork grease to seal them, then screw the whole assembly into the body with cork grease smeared on the threads of the wells. Then use a needle spring to be sure the vent hole isn't blocked once they're in.
I've superglued the wells in on Howarth instruments with plastic top joints as glueing them in with hot shellac runs the risk of melting the plastic, but the Howarth wells are knurled instead of threaded. The tops were then sealed in with grease.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-01 09:58
Thanks, I did use cork grease between the wells and the body.
One well came out and another stayed in the instrument. The only shellac that might be there is powder residue: I had cleaned the holes with Peroxyide because I thought that residue was possibly biological (the instrument had been in a closet for how many generations...)
Since the well is threaded, screwed into the body, can you recommend a way to get it out? I tried stuffing it with cotton swabs (I don't want to ruin the inner threads), but I can't get the friction to twist them out.
Thanks again.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-04-01 12:40
Unless you have a tool to remove the wells (which is an 8ve insert soldered to a brass rod), the only way to remove them is to put the insert in and tighten it up and with any luck, undoing it will remove the entire 8ve box - top and well. If the well is glued in there solid and won't budge, I'd leave it and make sure the top is sealed as that will prevent leaks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2013-09-23 12:50
Old thread, but crazy useful.... I hope this gets seen again with my new question on it.
I wanted to clean my octave vent with CLR (commercial de-ruster and mineral deposit cleaner) which smells a whole lot like vinegar. The bottle, however, says not to use it on copper or brass: the octave vent parts are made of brass....
Is vinegar also problematic or is it a matter of cleaning long enough, but not too long? Should I brush with a tooth-brush or swab with a cotton-tip?
Thanks
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-09-23 23:36
Weak acids like vinegar won't cause any problems with brass or nickel silver - it will remove mineral deposits and oxidisation and you won't have any worry about eroding the metal away, but only keep the 8ve inserts or whatever immersed until all traces of mineral deposits have been dissolved. You'll see fizzing and bubbles rising which will stop once the calcium deposits have dissolved.
I don't know what CLR is, but test it on a copper coin before using it on your 8ve inserts to see what it does. If it leaves the coin clean and not pitted, then it should be fine on nickel silver or brass.
I've pickled oboe/cor 8ve inserts in Brite-Dip which is a strong acid used after soldering keywork to remove flux deposits and remove oxides from non-ferrous metals (copper, brass, nickel silver and solid silver), but prolonged immersion will erode the metal so only use it until the bubbles stop.
Commercially available kettle descaler (formic acid) is also safe, but with any stronger acids, only keep the item immersed until any fizzing or bubbling ceases, then rinse thoroughly in hot water afterwards to neutralise any trace of acid.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-09-24 21:46
On a 2005 Loree AK oboe I recently looked at, there are two small teflon washers for each octave vent. One is on the well and the other on the top piece. They appear to do a very good job of sealing the vents.
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