 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2008-09-19 15:54
Hi oboists!
Long time no chat. Hope you all are doing well!
I have a question that I'd like to run by you...I'd like to work on this before my next lesson.
I'm learning Barrets #17 now and it has a "turn" in it that is kinda tricky for me. Song is in B minor. The "turn" starts on a B natural. When I hit the 32nd note C#, right after the B, should I be using long fingering or a trill for the C#?
Seems I've heard from somewheres that as a general rule "turns" use long fingering and not trill fingering.
Advice please. Thanks in advance.
Jay
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2008-09-19 17:08
Depends on how quickly, and cleanly, you want to do the turn. I was doing a lot of grace notes and fast runs in Poulenc's Trio for Oboe, Bassoon and Piano with long fingerings, but as I worked the tempo faster and faster (both the 1st and 3rd movements really fly) I found myself getting much "cleaner" results using trill fingerings. The intonation and timbre are not so good, but most listeners won't have time to hear the difference.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-09-22 02:51
Is that the Allegro moderato = 104 in Gekeler II, p. 12?
This is a lovely little Bmin piece, i love it mostly because it lends itself to some expressively spaced allargando and paced accelerando, and i do have fun with the G slur-off in Bar 14, and the sassy forte 8ve leap/drop in finale bar, all forte and articulated slightly differently
however, i'm still unclear on this grupetto, it has a # over it too, meaning upper note is affected, huh? and it's still unclear to me because the grupetto is printed between notes, so is that before or after the note to be turned? (do we turn the quarter note B or is it actually the dotted 8th D?)
what 32nd notes are you playing after the quarter note B?
how are you doing with all the < <> > ?
Whew, nowhere to take a breath from bar 21 on, how you doing with that?
I can see alternate whiff & puffs at ends of phrases, and maybe a snatch after the half note B (bar 31) but this one really tests one's air support by the end eh?
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-09-22 08:42
In the Martin Schuring edition, the turn is definitely on the B crotchet (quarter-note), The C# is from the key-signature, and the # sign under the turn indicates A#. Martin Schuring's edition certainly clears up a lot of these vagaries. Very inexpensive at online bookstores, I believe.
J.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2008-09-22 17:25
Thanks for the pointers so far all.
VBoboe, will let you know if it's Pg 12 in Gekeler II...going to check that this evening when I practice. I recently started using the Schuring Edition of Barrets because the "Barrets" versions in Gekeler II are totally fried! It was really annoying because I would learn them incorrectly from Gekeler II only to be corrected at my lessons by my teacher using the true Barrets book. He'd mark accidentals that were missing, alter the turns, all kinds of discrepancies. So, now I'm only doing Pt II scale exercises in Gekeler II and have trashed the first half of it...literally. I'm astonished that Gekeler II is such a commonly used book and has so many errors in it with regards to Barrets. I'm not talking minor errors, I'm talking about major stuff, especially the missing accidentals on certain notes.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-09-22 18:58
I use the RH D trill for isolated and quick Ds instead of going into the upper register, likewise with the LH C# trill for isolated C#s.
It just makes for a less 'lumpy' performance and keeps the timbre of the notes more uniform.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2008-09-23 02:31
>>>Is that the Allegro moderato = 104 in Gekeler II, p. 12?<<<
Indeed it is! I think it's the most fun of all so far. Makes me think of a circus tune.
>>>what 32nd notes are you playing after the quarter note B?
<<<
B-C#-B-A#-B
RE: breathing: I find the breathing to be pretty easy on this one for a change...perhaps I'm playing it too slowly still? Lots of places to take a breath *and* breathe rather normally throughout. I find that the finale with the trill, however, requires me to cut short the half note just before it to excale and take a final gulp to make the trill and the finale sound really nice. That ending has to be done right as it's the perfect finale. Really, really cool tune. The best so far in Barrets!
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-09-23 05:49
B-C#-B-A#-B
OK, i'll try that out, confess i'm leaning towards twiddling the index fingers alternately for B and C# rather than nudging the C# trill, and i'm uncertain at this late hour without trying it first to say if it'd be easier to play basic A# (2 extra fingers Left & Right) or fork it (1 extra finger on top joint only), either way would probably hold LEb down as resonance to improve these otherwise raw notes so think forking would be more likely as the pinky stabilizes left hand already -- as well as lip it with low B in mind
<<the # sign -- under -- the turn indicates A# >>
Well tsk tsk Gekeler's got # --over -- the turn, so there's another quibble, wouldn't that make it A natural in this particular rendition?
<<I find that the finale with the trill, however, requires me to cut short the half note just before it to exhale and take a final gulp>>
exactly what i meant by running out of air, but there's such an opportunity with that note for some tenuto suspense by extending the dim rather than shortening it before the A#/B trill, that one needs to have air to do that plus subito cresc forte afterwards
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-09-28 03:04
I'm working out of my old Gekeler II right now. I'll have to have a go at that one. My teacher has me on # 15 right now.
The one that has just about done me in is 10-that part in the middle- I must have played through that 100 times and still mess it up- plus no where to breathe through there. It is becoming my nemisis. I am still working on that one.grrrrrr
How long do you find it is taking you to learn a tune from this book really well?
It seems that I take an awfully long time. I've been re-learning since May after a brief acquaintance 37 years ago. I practice daily but progress is slow.
I am happy though that I have been able to make it through the community orchestra practices, so that gives me hope.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-09-28 03:46
<<a brief acquaintance 37 years ago ... It seems that I take an awfully long time>>
yup, being ... uh, ahem ... a very mature adult hath its privileges, but learning new things fast isn't one of them
<<plus no where to breathe through there>>
I do puffs & whiffs (alternate breathing, puff = mini exhale, whiff = mini inhale) to get me through this one, and i've marked my music with little breath marks at the end of musical phrases (between notes) to remind myself to !do it! (yah yah, omigawd my O2-CO2 mix is below par already, didya hear that saggy G-F slur !)
i've also made a 'maxi puff' mark after the quarter note B in Bar 27 and a 'maxi whiff' mark after D in Bar 28 as a substitute for a full exchange breath, that helps get me to the half note B in bar 31, after which i take a grand whiff to boost the finale
but i still mess up, plenty <:-o
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Author: MDunn
Date: 2008-09-28 19:09
I started the Barrett a while ago when I was first playing again and I remember that my teacher had me use trill fingerings for #17.
Did you know that John DeLancie used the Barrett for teaching when he was at Curtis?
HI cowtime!
I'm a returnee oboeist. I played 35 years ago in high school, and haven't played much seriously since, except recorder. About 3 years ago i got the bug again. Everybody at church was playing but me-wah! So I got out my student Cabart and started taking lessons again. Finally I got a used Yamaha which is sooo much easier to play and much more rewarding! And yes it is really difficult, especially as I was lazy in high school and never had to learn those really high notes. My teacher-"Do you mean to say you never learned that??" And turns, etc, etc... She started me off on the Barrett (the old original Boosey and Hawkes edition)and we are now on #33. I figure if I can play Barrett I can play anything! 33 is a bear-four flats and 12/8 time.
She likes to see if I can catch the many mistakes in the music!
You are lucky to have a group to play in. Here in the Philadelphia area there are tons of groups and so far not one except one very far away needs an oboe. Oboe is very big here, not like in Houston when I was growing up. (" You play oboe! Come join us-please!!") I'm searching for a group to play with as I need a goal to keep me on my toes but no luck so far.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-09-29 13:56
Would I be an Evil Person, damned to eternal hellfires, if I ventured to opine that it's okay to breathe where you need to breathe, changing an end-of-measure quarter note to an eighth note and an eighth rest, for example, as needed? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
For me, working with Barret is a means to an end, the end being improved technical facility, which, yes, includes a breathing workout, but I don't approach them as pieces that *must* be played 100% perfectly as-written. I view them as exercises you do to improve your breathing (and fingering), rather than as festival performance pieces where the judges are sitting there with the music in front of them, making ticks where you breathed but no rest was indicated.
So for me, if I can play them perfectly, that's nice, but sometimes I get to the point where I must balance frustration and boredom at feeling required to work on a Barret yet again until it's quote-unquote perfect, with my interest and motivation. And it's at that point that I generally move on to the next etude. I'm now on my second time around working my way through them, and I've added the first page of the first sonata to my "September" regimen; page 2 to follow in October, page 3 in November, etc. And even if I'm not playing the first page correctly up to speed, still it's fascinating, and it keeps me working at it, which is the important thing.
So, Cowtime, if it's up to me, I'd say don't obsess too much about getting it perfect. When it turns into a chore, then it's time to rethink your approach, IMO.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2008-09-29 14:02
>>>How long do you find it is taking you to learn a tune from this book really well? <<<
It can take me a month to learn a piece. These are not easy, at least not for me going into my third year. I'm looking at 18 and 19 (in Barret book) now and those look absolutely impossible!!! LOL.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2008-09-29 14:05
>>>Would I be an Evil Person, damned to eternal hellfires, if I ventured to opine that it's okay to breathe where you need to breathe, changing an end-of-measure quarter note to an eighth note and an eighth rest, for example, as needed?<<<
Hey, if it keeps you from passing out. I'm finding myself putting breath marks on slurs because it still sounds okay and seems appropriate. My teacher even does this so I guess it's okay. 
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-09-29 17:06
I also find that it's best for me to not focus on "how long it's taking to learn this thing", but rather on, "Are you tired of this one yet?" Because when I start to get tired of constantly hammering away at one particular passage that I'm just. not. getting, it's actually counter-productive to continue, since I start playing it wrong or hamhandedly, and it's really just better to move on.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2008-09-29 18:20
I hear you! It's really nice we have that option as hobbyists! No stress learning here.... I couldn't imagine having to learn this stuff for auditions or recitals with time constraints.
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