 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2018-02-06 07:18
Does anyone one have a scan of Tchaikovsky's Mozartiana (Suite No.4) entire 4th mvt (Theme and Variations) transposed for A clarinet (from C clarinet)?
I have variations 8, 9 and 10 transposed but it would be helpful to have the whole 4th movement.
If nobody has it I might have to bite the bullet and add a ledger line under the existing bottom ledger line and remove the top ledger line, and add 3 flats, to put the movement up a minor third for A clarinet.
Thanks in advance,
Simon
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2018-02-06 17:14
Attachment: Mozartiana_Clar.1_mvt.4.pdf (100k)
Here is one I made several years ago. It was in an earlier version of Finale, so some of the text fonts look strange, but I think it is still readable.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2018-02-07 01:10
Thanks a million rmk!!!!!!!
And thanks to Klose who was about to start making a transposition of this movement.
Simon
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2018-02-09 00:33
This is certainly more enjoyable with a transposed copy, but if you can read bass clef than the sight transposition isn’t that hard: add three flats, as you said, but read the notes as in bass clef.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2018-02-13 00:29
https://cwsalinger.wixsite.com/mysite
Charly Salinger above made an entire part. It is beautifully done, and every orchestral clarinetist would benefit to own it. Because when that piece comes up, you want to be prepared!
Just contact him and he will take care of you. I purchased mine for about $20. Worth every penny.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-02-13 00:59
Brad Behn wrote:
> https://cwsalinger.wixsite.com/mysite
>
> Charly Salinger above made an entire part. It is beautifully
> done, and every orchestral clarinetist would benefit to own it.
> Because when that piece comes up, you want to be prepared!
>
> Just contact him and he will take care of you. I purchased
> mine for about $20. Worth every penny.
>
Hmm... maybe I also should provide this as a service.:)
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Author: JohnB
Date: 2026-09-06 01:41
Thank you rmk54, that's a great resource and very generous of you to share. We're playing this in a couple of weeks and your insert is so much clearer than the scrawled manuscript in our orchestral part!
If you're ever in the North of England let me repay with a pint (or two...)
John
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Author: kdk
Date: 2026-09-06 17:43
rmk54 wrote:
> I think just about everyone plays this on A.
Does no one play it on a C clarinet?
Back in the mid-20th century (when I was a student) not very many players, at least in the U.S., used C clarinets, but I would think among clarinetists of the past 30-40 years or so, many would have played this on a C.
Or did you mean that it's more often played on an A than on a Bb clarinet? A lot of it, especially the big cadenza, does lie much better on an A than on a Bb. But the original C clarinet part is, IMHO, more easily playable than either.
Karl
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2026-09-06 19:00
Or did you mean that it's more often played on an A than on a Bb clarinet?
--------------------------------------------
I did.
Although it is somewhat easier on a C clarinet I believe most players would prefer the depth of sound an A clarinet has.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2026-09-07 19:12
rmk54 wrote:
> Or did you mean that it's more often played on an A than on a
> Bb clarinet?
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> I did.
>
> Although it is somewhat easier on a C clarinet I believe most
> players would prefer the depth of sound an A clarinet has.
Interesting.
But, then, you run headlong into the endlessly debated clash of the composer's intent and the player's preference. I've never been on the side of "what the composer wrote" unconditionally overriding the player's decision to substitute a different clarinet from the one in the original score. But that decision usually revolves around awkwardness in the original notation or the unavailability of the prescribed instrument. In the "olden days" (60-75 years ago) C clarinets weren't easy to find, especially ones that played in tune, which has been less true in the years since the late 1980s.
In this case, the original notation for clarinet in C is perfectly playable with a comfortable range. Tchaikovsky obviously knew about A and Bb clarinets, yet he chose to write much (but not all) of the Mozartiana part for C clarinet. And the choices are not necessarily based on key signatures (which were not as meaningful an issue by Tchaikovsky's time as during the era of Mozart and Beethoven). The Gigue (on A clarinet) is in the same key as the Variations (on C clarinet).
I would never on principle argue that *you* should play it on a C clarinet. IMO that's your choice as the performer, but (without wanting to dispute your statement, which may well be true) I wonder why "most players" would make that choice, especially now that C clarinets have become more available, "authentic" performance practices are the rage, and most of the old-timers (like me) who didn't have C clarinets so easily at hand and transposed everything to Bb or A, are no longer active (or at least not making commercial recordings).
Karl
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2026-09-07 22:08
It seems to me, this solo is intended to sparkle, so the depth of sound from an A isn't what's required in this case. But if you prefer the depth of sound and have to play it, off you go.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2026-09-07 22:13
You know, our colleagues in the trumpet section never have these issues. They just use the instrument they deem best for them regardless of the composer's "intentions".
Let's say I wanted to play the entire first movement of Brahms' Symphony No.3 entirely on the B-flat. I can just imagine the pearl-clutching going on in the purist community. But wait - let's look at the manuscript: this is the way Brahms originally wrote the part. Later, a clarinetist (Mühlfeld, maybe?) informed him that certain passages would lie better on the A, so he changed it. So much for "composer's intentions".
Other composers, such as Prokofiev, wrote their scores in C and let the copyist/publisher determine which instrument would be used, sometimes leading to disastrous results (there is a published version of Peter and the Wolf for C clarinet!)
Of course, there are composers who absolutely had the sound of a C clarinet in mind when they orchestrated. Mahler and R. Strauss, for example. Schubert, to a lesser extent. I remember performing Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique using C and E-flat instruments and it made a world of difference. I can't imagine playing the on-stage clarinet part in Wozzeck on anything other than a C clarinet.
Other than depth of sound, another reason many performers prefer to play the Tchaikovsky on the A is to avoid picking up a cold instrument for an exposed solo.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2026-09-08 00:43
rmk54 wrote:
> You know, our colleagues in the trumpet section never have
> these issues. They just use the instrument they deem best for
> them regardless of the composer's "intentions".
I know. They must lead dull lives.
> Let's say I wanted to play the entire first movement of Brahms'
> Symphony No.3 entirely on the B-flat. I can just imagine the
> pearl-clutching going on in the purist community. But wait -
> let's look at the manuscript: this is the way Brahms originally
> wrote the part.
And, indeed, I heard Morales fairly recently play it just that way - all on the Bb. And it sounded wonderful.
But that's really neither here nor there. And, again, I'm not a "composer's choice right or wrong" chest thumper on this (or generally any other musical disputes). But the analogy doesn't quite fit. Brahms apparently *did* write those solos for Bb clarinet and Mühlfeld got him to second guess himself.
> Other composers, such as Prokofiev, wrote their scores in C and
> let the copyist/publisher determine which instrument would be
> used, sometimes leading to disastrous results (there is a
> published version of Peter and the Wolf for C clarinet!)
Again, at the risk of being cornered into a partisan position on this, if Prokofiev didn't specify a clarinet choice and wrote his scores out in concert key, we're free as birds. We certainly don't take instructions from mere anonymous copyists. And I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer to play some parts of Peter on a C, but I'd need a C with a basset extension for parts of it (the lowest note is C3 - an octave below "middle" C). Is there such an animal as a basset C clarinet?
> Other than depth of sound, another reason many performers
> prefer to play the Tchaikovsky on the A is to avoid picking up
> a cold instrument for an exposed solo.
>
Well, yes. The tuning havoc that can cause is one of the best reasons. Also, Mahler's instrument changes with not enough time to do the changes securely (unless you change from the barrel or use a separate mouthpiece). I'm not really the one to argue this. I had enough occasions to dispute with Dan Leeson when he was alive and posting here. My surprise is simply that modern recordings would have this particular Tchaikovsky solo transposed to an A clarinet when the C version is just as (or more) convenient and doesn't go up as high.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2026-09-08 00:48
Another change made regularly to Tchaikovsky that I *do* quibble with is the use of a bass clarinet for the bassoon at the end of the exposition of the first movement of the 6th symphony. I understand the problems of connecting the end of the clarinet solo, marked with a hundred "P"s, to a bassoon starting cold in that range and dynamic. But Tchaikovsky knew what a bass clarinet was (think Nutcracker) and he wasn't inexperienced - it was the last thing he wrote, so he made what must have been a deliberate choice of a bassoon. But the bass clarinetist has to play 4 notes on a cold instrument, then sit there for the rest of the symphony, unless the 2nd clarinetist switches to the bass for the solo and then misses a few bars of the 2nd part after the fun starts. That's another whole discussion, though, which we had here once.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2026-09-08 01:25
Do conductors have a say in which clarinets (or other instruments) are used in the situations under discussion?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2026-09-08 02:20
Philip Caron wrote:
> Do conductors have a say in which clarinets (or other
> instruments) are used in the situations under discussion?
Sure, if they hear the difference or see your fingerings or notice the different length. But I've never found a conductor to care. If it sounded like a clarinet and it was cleanly played an in tune, I've never found that conductors were fussy.
I did read a story once in which the world-class guest conductor of a world-class orchestra asked its principal clarinetist to play something on the instrument it was written for. The clarinetist, not seeing that it was any of the conductor's business, said, "Yes, maestro," took the mouthpiece out of the clarinet, put the clarinet down as if to change to the other one, and then quietly picked up the same clarinet he'd started with. I think the story ended with the conductor telling the clarinetist how much better it sounded that way.
Maybe someone who knows the story can supply names. I'm sure I read it here - probably during one of the debates with Dan about respecting the composers' choice of instruments.
Karl
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2026-09-08 03:27
(the lowest note is C3 - an octave below "middle" C)
-----------------------------------------------------
You mean C-sharp, yes? (low E on the A clarinet)
I did read a story once...
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I believe that was Gino Cioffi with Erich Leinsdorf.
Do conductors have a say in which clarinets (or other instruments) are used in the situations under discussion?
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Only if their name is (was) George Szell. When Marcellus was experimenting with a crystal mouthpiece (O'Brien?) he (Szell) insisted that he switch back to his Kasper.
Post Edited (2026-09-08 03:56)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2026-09-08 04:28
rmk54 wrote:
> (the lowest note is C3 - an octave below "middle" C)
> -----------------------------------------------------
> You mean C-sharp, yes? (low E on the A clarinet)
>
Yeah, I must have misread a written low F (Eb). There are a few concert C#s that wouldn't work on a C, either (or on a Bb without a low Eb/D# key). I've always played an A clarinet version, so was glancing too quickly over the Bb part I also own to "research" my earlier answer. ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Karl
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2026-09-08 17:21
I made my own version using both B-flat and A. Some parts are easier on the B-flat.
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The Clarinet Pages
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