 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-05-24 14:04
Low E below the staff and especially low F, are too flat. SOme clarinet makers have added an extra key and hole to pull up their pitch. The clarinet builder I worked for: JL Clarinettes had a hole in the bell and a key that you activated with your right thumb, by the thumb rest. The problem; an extra hole in the lower body could throw off evenness of tone (am I right in assuming this? -maybe not.) The mechanism that you manipulate with your right thumb is cumbersome. Wouldn't the solution be to design a bell that puts these notes in tune without throwing off the 12ths?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Lillian826Pena
Date: 2025-05-24 15:04
You're correct: low E and F on clarinet are often flat, and while an extra key can help, its mechanism might be cumbersome and its hole could potentially affect tone consistency. You're also right to suggest a better bell design as a solution; the bell significantly influences the intonation of the lowest notes and good makers optimize it for this purpose. However, a perfect bell design alone might not fully compensate for all intonation challenges, leading some to incorporate additional keys for targeted pitch correction.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-05-24 17:04
The automatic low E/F correction mechanism fitted to some Selmer Recitals and Buffet Elites was operated by the speaker key (both makes had a slightly different configuration as to how it was linked to the speaker key), so the player didn't have to physically do anything else in order for the low E and F to be brought up to pitch.
Yamaha have a semi automatic low E/F correction mechanism operated by the right thumb as used on Oehler systems, but tweaked to work with the way the low E/B key is mounted on Boehm systems - the low E vent is a small vent just above the lower joint tenon shoulder with a W shaped insert in it to reduce hiss.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2025-05-24 17:13
Bell design only allows you to adjust the trade off between a flat low E and a sharp B2. The automatic mechanism is the way to go, but adds cost. The thumb mechanism would be good for long held notes. If you remember to press it.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-05-25 04:26
The Yamaha key imo is of poor design, placement/location/height/lack of rest/recessed key. IMO almost an afterthought. Fantastic horn otherwise. Good design can minimize the tuning problems e.g. the older Leblanc IMO we're less flat.
Well designed key/s/ instrument are a great thing.
Replacement bells can cause as many problems for some horns as they cure.
Some of the older Selmers were particularly less than ideal
Post Edited (2025-05-25 04:28)
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-05-25 15:18
Pitch correction mechanisms are only worth considering where you can be sure to play in a section where everyone has those facilities. If one does and the other doesn't, a direct clash arises. Personally, I think it amounts to a fad, though I can see that it works well in a fully co-ordinated orchestral section where the types of instrument are all the same.
graham
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2025-05-25 17:14
Good point, Graham. However, in orchestral settings we rarely play in unison. Would you still consider it an disadvantage with only one player in a section having a low e/f-correction mechanism - and thus playing those notes in tune? Or could it mostly be a band problem?
Post Edited (2025-05-25 20:53)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-05-25 18:47
Just a couple of remarks: 1. Low F and low E are only a problem for long, held notes. On short values, nobody will notice anything. 2. You can always bring up the pitch by applying more jaw pressure on the mouthpiece.
Some clarinets have a better-in-tune low F and E than others. We tune to A-440 (or 442), but even our A (clarinet B), is slightly too low. The bottom part of the clarinet is often less warm than than the top, so this makes these notes even flatter compared with the notes on the upper body of the instrument.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2025-05-25 20:06
The issue of uniformity of tuning within a section notwithstanding, to me these compensatory mechanisms all smack of reinventing the wheel. I have a Leblanc Symphonie 3 full Boehm that has perfectly in tune low F, E, and very handy long middle Bb (using the low Eb key). But I must admit to not knowing enough about clarinet acoustics to know how well the full Boehm configuration would work on a modern polycylindrical bore. Was such a beast ever made?
The auxillary left hand Eb/Ab key has made a comeback. Now low F & E corrections. Why not the FB? I find the other extra keys handy as well.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-05-25 20:36
On Selmer Muse, the correction key touch piece is adjustable, so, depending on the position of the thumb rest, it can be adjusted up/down.
The low F with the correction key is perfectly in tune and there is no effect on the sound;
the low E is in tune but sounds slightly stuffy, which I was told is the same on Yamahas.
Chris is right when he says that in order to correct the low E, the additional vent hole needs to be larger diameter on the bell. Which would make the mechanics more complex (and more expensive). I see in YT videos that some Oehler clarinets have such correction mechanism.
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Author: graham
Date: 2025-05-25 22:36
The problem of a clash can arise with adjacent notes as well as unison playing. Both seem to arise reasonably often. 2nd movement of Sibelius 2nd symphony is an example of unison bottom Fs. Certainly it would be more common in a wind band or clarinet choir.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2025-05-26 11:42
Attachment: Wurlitzer e-f mechanism.jpg (236k)
With a manually operated low e-f correction key you of course always have the option of not using it - say in a unison passage as mentioned above, a solo entry in pp, or similar more or less rare instances (have done that myself).
On the other hand, the drawback of a manual key is a certain learning curve until its use gets habitual, which in my case was several years (not so with an automated one, connected to the speaker key).
Attached is a picture of the Wurlitzer low e-f correction key, on a Reform Boehm clarinet. In my experience, a sufficient raise of low e requires a tonehole on the bell, not just on the lower joint (also not to compromise tone quality), and the low f vent must be placed above the low e tonehole (where low f emanates) - not below, as with Buffets "extra" low f pinkie key, which thus becomes only a partial solution.
True, the bore of German/Reform Boehm instruments makes the low e and f even flatter than on well tuned Boehm clarinets - but still, the Buffets and Yamahas with their mechanisms that I've tried, only partially raised those notes.
Post Edited (2025-05-26 11:48)
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2025-05-26 12:38
My preference is for instruments without.
reasoning:
1. a mechanical correction key adds mechanical complexity, and (unless automatic) adds to more complex playing
2. whether a note is at the "correct" pitch depends partly on harmonic context. For example a slightly flat low E may sound flat if played as the minor third in a C#-e-G# chord, but sound pleasing and "correct" if played as the major third in a C-E-G chord. In addition of course one must try to match the tuning of the other instruments. I prefer an instrument & set up up with enough flexibility to support such small changes to tuning using embouchure and voicing, rather than using additional keys.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-05-26 13:19
ACCA: you are so right to insist on harmonic context. Otherwise, why don't we just all play electronic instruments?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2025-05-27 00:15
As already indicated, addressing harmonic context means adjustments both up and down. Thus I'm quite sure we all agree that an "ideal" instrument would be spot on in tune on just every note - which in turn would facilitate adjustments in both directions by the context. Otherwise, if a flat low e and f actually are desirable in this regard, shouldn't the same apply also to every other e and f across the whole register?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-05-27 01:28
Here's a list of clarinets that play every single note absolutely perfectly in tune:
1. ...
Players are often expecting far too much than most woodwind instruments have to offer instead of putting in the extra work. The instruments are just the starting point and the player has to understand and work around any problems instead of putting down X finger and expecting X note to come out perfectly in tune.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2025-05-27 15:46)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2025-05-27 02:28
Chris,
I think there can be a list of clarinetists playing perfectly in tune (if that is possible at all), but no such list for clarinets.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-05-27 09:59
A psychological factor: low F, F sharp and E are relatively easy to play and to make sound half-way decent, so we unconsciously loosen our embouchure. We should, on the contrary, make it firmer to bring up the pitch of these notes.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2025-05-27 12:21)
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Author: gwie
Date: 2025-05-27 20:57
I love the design of the correction key on my Yamaha CSGs. It doesn't require me to stretch to activate it, the thumb motion is relatively small and calls for a finger that usually isn't doing anything else on the Boehm system clarinet, and I like having the option to use it or not. The stretch for the Buffet implementation is unpleasant, and while I liked the automatic vent on my Backun MoBa, I found the instrument too heavy for my tastes.
The designer made a prototype for a colleague of mine on his first-generation CSG A clarinet, as his area of specialty was performing quintets with strings and having a greater flexibility of pitch correction for those notes was very helpful. The "banana shape" key was much larger on the prototype and little easier to activate, but the production version still works quite well.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2025-05-27 21:14
Following the maker's recommendation, I have F and E correction vents operated by a thumb key on the A but not the Bb, as the greater length makes the tuning difference more pronounced. In practice, I rarely use it; mostly the notes can be brought in tune by embouchure adjustments. The main use is for really loud Fs and Es that the audience can hear or when playing with a piano. Brahms and Zemlinsky have a couple places where I use it.
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-05-28 16:00
The Germans started messing with various keys for sharpening F and E in the 1890s, and there have been many variations... but the Selmer recital key (automatic, as described above, and copied by Backun) has always seemed to me to be the best.
I'm also a fan of the "Tosca solution" though I know many who don't like it. For me, that key is out of the way but not too difficult to use when you need to. It doesn't add too much weight or complication to the mechanism- nothing will ever go wrong with it. Just make the hole a bit bigger.
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2025-05-29 03:59
Never had a problem with low F and E being in tune on my Amati Full boehm. Maybe the low Eb hole has something to do with it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-05-29 14:54
There's no low Eb tonehole on a full Boehm - the lowest tonehole is for E/B.
Likewise with regular clarinets - the lowest tonehole is for F/C.
In both cases, the lowest note issues directly from the bell itself.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-05-31 15:58
Chris is not talking about what NOTE you have, but whether that note emits from a tonehole. Low Eb, on a "Full Boehm" clarinet, emits from the bell. Low E (which emits from the bell of a normal clarinet) emits from a tone hole ON A FULL BOEHM CLARINET.
Get it?
Post Edited (2025-06-01 12:59)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-06-01 00:08
Donald: Stands to reason, doesn't it?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-06-01 14:56
In the second part of the slow third movement of the Saint-Saëns Clarinet Sonata, we're called upon to play the low notes on the clarinet double forte. Playing them loud brings down their pitch, which is too flat even at the best of times, even further. The first part of the movement has us playing the upper register double piano, which brings the pitch up. As this is a contest piece, I assume that Saint-Saëns knew what he was doing; was testing us.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-06-01 17:16
You can hear the flattening effect the length of the bell has if you overblow the upper register B as that will overblow to more or less a G instead of a G#/Ab which is what you'd expect from the odd harmonic series.
You'd normally expect a widely spaced b7th chord (eg. 1st-3rd-5th-7th harmonics of xxx|xxo giving A-E-C#-G) for most part, but not where the low E is concerned as the 5th in the series is flat.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2025-06-01 23:22)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-06-03 12:38
Chris P (or anybody else). How about a permanently open little hole in the bell? My Ridenour C clarinet has one and its low F and E are in tune as well as the 12ths: B and C. That said, what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. We did try this out at JL clarinet with a B-flat clarinet whose low F and E were intolerably flat, and it worked very well without throwing anything off. We got lucky, because we didn't really know where to place the hole or how big to make it.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2025-06-03 12:52)
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The Clarinet Pages
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