 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2024-12-09 06:11
I'm 65 and took two and a half years off from playing because of other, competing interests (piano, painting). Returning to clarinet, I find my skills substantially diminished. My double-lip embouchure has become slack and ineffective. My full-tube (right-hand) tones are insecure; often the notes simply do not sound. My clarion is shrill.
All this is humiliating because I have the best equipment obtainable. Often these days, I long for something humble such as my old, long-discarded "TV" logo Noblet 45 -- I feel the need for some piece of equipment that matches my diminished skills.
I've been doing long tones and improvising (printed msuic is my enemy), gently trying to coax my fingers, as Eddie Daniels says, to return habitually to the holes they must cover. Yet my right hand is sloppy and the full-tune tones often simply fail to sound.
Well! Thank you for listening. I keep at it every day.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-09 07:02
Bill, welcome back!
How long has this current return to clarinet lasted? When did you first pick it up after the two-plus years' break?
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-12-09 08:40
Bill wrote:
"I'm 65 and took two and a half years off from playing because of other, competing interests (piano, painting). Returning to clarinet, I find my skills substantially diminished. My double-lip embouchure has become slack and ineffective. My full-tube (right-hand) tones are insecure; often the notes simply do not sound. My clarion is shrill.
All this is humiliating because I have the best equipment obtainable. Often these days, I long for something humble such as my old, long-discarded "TV" logo Noblet 45 -- I feel the need for some piece of equipment that matches my diminished skills...."
A clarinet can develop leaks even if not used, regardless of its price. I would have the instrument checked by a skilled tech, preferably using the mag machine- it is easy to see if there are leaks or not.
A lesson or two (or more) can be useful too...
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-09 12:35
Take heart Bill... what you're experiencing is likely more normal than not.
A retired lifelong professional who came to visit us back in the spring, had brought his instrument, but was reluctant to play on the basis that he was out of practice. This is a guy who, by his account ,has spent most of his life practicing eight hours daily and who I knew had recorded an album only half a year ago with other eminent musicians. He offered by way of explanation that a significant backslide when one stops playing is completely inevitable, and can only be overcome by hours and hours of return to practicing again.
Sounded to me just like someone describing keeping in shape at the gym.😬
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-12-09 13:54
Remember that it is likely that your skills fells off over a couple year period so it will take some time to get them back. Start with small amounts and sufficient breaks. If double lip is tiring, perhaps alternate with some periods of single lip.
Just be patient and enjoy the process. Track your progress not by where you were years ago, but where you were last weak or last month
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-12-09 16:11
As others accurately state here - this is all normal.
Tonehole coverage is something that the brain and hands quickly lose completely control of when even a few days are missed.
At 65 it's probably not the time to change your double-lip embouchure but I am somewhat bemused my the attention it seems to receive stateside! I speak from experience as I managed to reach grade 8 at 13 using it. After that a London professor oversaw the change to single lip. The big disadvantage of double-lip is that the instrument is unstable without the upper teeth in contact with the mouthpiece. Everything can wobble like a jelly! Yes, there are a number of eminent players who have used it at some time or other but some were unique should who probably had reasons that most of us should ignore.
Many American players seem to embrace close facings and very hard reeds. In the UK many of us use medium/long lays with 3/3.5 reeds in order to experience great flexibility in the sound and to avoid any kind of rigidity in the embouchure. In my experience, this is not well understood in the US!
If this sounds like your setup then try something like a Vandoren BD5 with a strength 3 V12 reed and have a go at single-lip. You might enjoy it and it's a whole lot easier to maintain.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-12-09 20:38
I'm 60. I feel the effects of age as well and I have some thoughts.
Bill, you may have nothing short of quality tools to work with but...are they tools that make playing clarinet easier that things you can acquire to do so?
Symphony1010 suggested a smaller tip opening mouthpiece like the BD5. I might go even further with Vandoren's even closer tip and relatively newly released BD2 mouthpiece, or their M15, along with Vandoren strength 3 or equivalent reeds. This is what I play, which in and of itself should not attract or dissuade you from a similar setup except to say that my reasons for this gear have to do with not making the instrument any more difficult for me to play that possible. All the more reason do I feel this way if you wish to continue playing double lip.
Another thing to consider if you're not already is a neck strap. I'd also have a look at some of Stephen Fox's accessories http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/Accessories.html several of which are geared around making play physically easier.
Another thing to consider is whether switching to a plateau key based clarinet may be best for you (it may not.)
e.g. https://youtu.be/HDE_iUOPF8c?si=nHpPmnVD-xc0c6az
Lohff & Pfeiffer will also convert clarinets from non-plateau to plateau based instruments:
https://www.clarinet.dk/content/show_content.php?id=101&cont=us&lang=en&instr=cla
Good luck
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2024-12-10 02:33
You have been back to practicing for how long? Practicing how many hours a day now? Can take a long time to get back in shape, especially at that age. I am trying to do that also. Need to spend a lot of time on the basics: long tones and slow scales. Don't obsess over equipment, as long as it is not getting in your way.
Post Edited (2024-12-10 02:35)
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2024-12-10 02:37
Even though I am only 27 I've also experienced something similar: 2-years ago I lost my previous Bb clarinet, then falling into financial hardship soon after which forced me to go on extended hiatus with Bb/A clarinet until last summer. Although I've still had my bass clarinet(which has always been my main instrument), it was by no means a full substitute to my Bb/A skills and has taken me a few months before I fully rebuild my skills. To this day, I still have a a bit to go, and of course I always aspire improve even further than before. It takes time to get back in shape, but the end result is well worth it.
Also I echo others' thoughts by suggesting you bring your clarinet to a technician to check anything's out of adjustment- there are times I play my clarinets when they are out of adjustment and don't even realize it for some time, falsely beating myself up instead. I can't say if that's also your situation, but it could very well be possible.
Josh
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-12-10 05:11
Quote:
The big disadvantage of double-lip is that the instrument is unstable without the upper teeth in contact with the mouthpiece. Everything can wobble like a jelly! Yes, there are a number of eminent players who have used it at some time or other but some were unique should who probably had reasons that most of us should ignore.
Using some upward support with the right thumb and keeping firm lip support, especially in the corners, it is not that hard to develop good control. Sure, for many single is easier, but once one gets comfortable using double there are many plusses. I learned single and played for quite a number of years that way but switched to double some years back and have been very happy with the results. I actually have played double on all clarinets and saxes as well. Part of the reason for that is an unevenness in my front teeth and some difficulties which could makes easier for me. But, whatever works.
Quote:
Many American players seem to embrace close facings and very hard reeds. In the UK many of us use medium/long lays with 3/3.5 reeds in order to experience great flexibility in the sound and to avoid any kind of rigidity in the embouchure. In my experience, this is not well understood in the US!
I think that concept has changed quite a bit over the years. While one can find a number of players using that kind of close set up, these days there are many US players who have moved to the kinds of facings you describe. I find many players embracing similar reed strengths (3-3.5) and much more open facings than years ago. There are advantages to the closer facings and some find more open designs harder to control. But, again, whatever works.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-12-10 07:04
Quote:
At 65 it's probably not the time to change your double-lip embouchure but I am somewhat bemused my the attention it seems to receive stateside!
Double-lip embouchure is fairly unusual here in the U.S. I can probably count on one hand the number of pros I've met who use it full time (many, though, use it as a practice technique). It's definitely overrepresented here on the bboard.
Maybe it was more popular around the middle of the 20th century, with a few important players and teachers inspiring others to use it? But now, it would be pretty odd for a college teacher to be advocating for full-time double lip.
But if it helps someone play clarinet in his or her 60s, go for it!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-10 11:29
Main thing is just to stay out of those clarinet rehabilitation centers, where they lock you in a room, slide reeds under the door, and nobody's allowed to squeak to anybody else.😅
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-10 13:40
Bill wrote:
> I'm 65 and took two and a half years off from playing because
> of other, competing interests (piano, painting). Returning to
> clarinet, I find my skills substantially diminished. My
> double-lip embouchure has become slack and ineffective. My
> full-tube (right-hand) tones are insecure; often the notes
> simply do not sound. My clarion is shrill.
>
Bill, to bring this back to your original post, some of this is just going to take time, as others have suggested. The embouchure will firm up as you play. But the point of my original question (how long have you been back to playing clarinet after your break?) is that some of it may be related to age and not the hiatus. At 77, I've become prone to missing coverage on certain tone holes that my fingers don't like stretching out to reach. In particular either 1st or 4th (ring finger) on either hand because they don't always naturally stretch far enough apart. If I miss covering the tone holes, the notes mostly don't speak at all, as you describe, although the result is occasionally a squeak. With a lot of attention to my finger position as I play I can avoid most problems, but it isn't as natural and unconscious a process as it was when I was 30 or even 60, when I never really thought about covering the holes. So, when something doesn't sound, stop and notice where your fingers are, and develop some extra awareness of what they're doing as you play.
To help with this, spend some time practicing slowly in order to pay more attention to your finger positions and the way they move. Practicing slowly can at the same time give your embouchure at least as much exercise as long tones.
As to embouchure, the two obvious issues are being out of shape (if it hasn't been a very long time since you're re-started) or using a mouthpiece/reed combination that isn't ideal, even if it's something you had gotten used to before you stopped. Try a neck strap, if you don't already use one, and don't be too doctrinaire about using your knees to help steady the instrument. Use the strap for vertical support and the knees, if needed, to prevent wobble. Pull up with your RH thumb under the thumb rest to provide the level of engagement of the reed with your embouchure needed to focus the tone.
> All this is humiliating because I have the best equipment
> obtainable.
>
> I've been doing long tones and improvising (printed msuic is my
> enemy), gently trying to coax my fingers, as Eddie Daniels
> says, to return habitually to the holes they must cover. Yet my
> right hand is sloppy and the full-tune tones often simply fail
> to sound.
>
You may never have had to think about what you're doing as a younger player as much as you do now, and the break has interrupted the continuity of acclimating to new needs. Be as analytical as you can about your playing and you can find ways to solve the problems that are coming up. You can't stop the clock, but you can use your years of experience to work around the its effects.
Oh, and try to have fun while you're playing. Tensing up in frustration is, of course, counterproductive.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-12-10 18:07
As others have said, make sure the instruments aren't leaking, and then work on tone hole coverage. I'm 71, and I give attention to the latter every day. Just keep practicing diligently from wherever you are, detail by detail, and things should come back relatively quickly. Including your embouchure.
Btw, my double lip embouchure doesn't wobble. Wobble may be about unneeded finger (or wrist, or shoulder) movements, which could also relate back to the tone hole thing.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2024-12-10 22:57
I'm so grateful for all the replies here. Thank you. I agree that my best bet is to do slow practice. My blowing is different in a Bach prelude than when I'm just improvising. Printed music is thrilling but has the effect of stiffening up my hands in the semiquavers. I'm super conscious of "slapping down" my fingers, especially when playing printed music. I'm back on the Rose etudes, which used to be so easy and now are hard as hell (!).
Thanks again for the generous comments!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2024-12-16 05:37)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-12-11 00:39
Bill wrote:
>I'm
> back on the Rose etudes, which used to be so easy and now are
> hard as hell (!).
Sometimes those etudes seemed easy because we didn't know any better, We come to them later in life with different expectations of ourselves.
Karl
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-12-13 17:59
Can anyone point me to a decent edition of the oft-mentioned Rose studies?
We don't have the same passion for them in the UK as in the US but I do use them with students.
For a resource so beloved of players and teachers the copies I've seen desperately need editing and a decent layout, perhaps with some advisory notes from a good player. Sorry to go off-piste!
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2024-12-13 18:45
https://www.completeworksmusic.com/complete-clarinet-c-rose
While it still needs some corrections and editing, at least the printing has been cleaned up.
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-12-13 20:03
Ah! Many thanks for that. I also like the idea of the spiral-bound edition.
It would be interesting to see what Henle-Verlag could do with it but I guess we'll never know!
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Author: Bill
Date: 2024-12-20 23:31
Just to say that my skill is coming back to where it was when I left off playing. My thanks to all the responders on this board for your excellent suggestions and encouragement!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2024-12-21 21:18
Quote:
Just to say that my skill is coming back to where it was when I left off playing.
That's good to hear! If you feel up to playing in a concert band this summer drop me an email.
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