 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meteorito03
Date: 2024-10-25 17:13
Hi everyone,
I was wondering how much you tend to go sharp after playing for a while. I usually start at 442 Hz with the shortest configuration of the Royal Global adjustable barrel, but during rehearsals, I often have to extend the barrel quite a bit (or whatever the correct term is for adjusting barrel length). Sometimes, even the longest configuration isn’t enough to get me in tune with the ensemble.
I’m currently using a Vandoren M30 13 Series mouthpiece, which should theoretically help lower my pitch. My reeds are D’Addario Reserve Classic 3.5, and my clarinet is a Uebel Preference, although I experience the same issue with my Buffet E11. I also ordered a Backun McGill Signature barrel, and I’ve heard that a 1 mm length difference in barrels could alter the tuning by about 2 Hz, though I’m a bit skeptical about this claim.
Thanks in advance for any insights!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-10-25 23:22
I am not really sure of an exact amount since I warm up before doing ANYTHING serious on the horn. But it may represent about 2mm worth of length I would guess. The full length of an adjustable barrel (I have one of the Globus and they're pretty good) sounds extreme to me.
I'd guess there is more with your embouchure being engaged with your issue. I'd work on staying more relaxed as you play. Something to work on during practice for sure. Play for about ten minutes then just blow air through your mouthpiece/horn.....flabby embouchure. And then slowly bring in the embouchure until you start getting a tone. I do this to test reed strengths for myself, but should be handy here. Then see how relaxed you can PLAY while still getting a hearty sound..........and then check your tuning.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2024-10-26 01:55
Possible causes I can think of:
- instrument warming up:
https://tuningcharts.com/blog/effects-of-air-on-the-intonation-of-clarinet
a fascinating read, I had no idea the changes were so large, even from CO2 increase when holding a long tone. I suspect most players learn to compensate automatically and so won't see the variations the studies found in a test jig.
- reed absorbing moisture, some players like a fresh reed every 30 minutes, maybe that's part of the appeal.
You might be able to experiment around to find your root cause. Like try playing a in a heated room (like a heater in a bathroom), and try switching to a fresh reed to see if the pitch goes down.
Aging classical trumpet player beginning to learn clarinet as a second.
Post Edited (2024-10-26 01:55)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-10-26 11:09
I think that that study is rather over complicating the matter by observing the effects of ambient temperatures on pitch generated within the bore.The whole point of warming up the instrument is to override those factors, exchanging them for the temperature and humidity levels of your breath, both of which remain constants irregardless of external conditions. Breath temperature is remarkably constant for all, while breath humidity may vary between people but remains pretty constant for any given individual .Hence the density of molecules in the bore, both air and water, are basically a self generated mico climate of pretty constant molecular density and influence on the pitch response of the vibrating air column. But this is assuming the air is not cooling excessively as it passes through an unwarned bore.
The only thing I can think of which may significantly affect the molecular density of an individual's exhaled breath, is altitude.
So I understand the matter, but I would happily stand corrected if I am in some way mistaken .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-10-26 15:36
The prevailing air pressure as it relates to altitude (as far as I know) only really affects the strength of the reed one would use. At a higher altitude, one would need a slightly softer reed than what one would use at sea level.
Pitch is not directly involved in the air pressure issue.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-10-26 15:39
Something you may or may not have considered is the choice of barrel. The internal design and dimensions of the maker's barrel may not be the same as the one you describe. I would always start with the original barrel if I could.
Very rarely I encounter players who seem to somehow play naturally sharper than the conditions on their instrument would indicate. Playing the instrument myself on an identical mouthpiece and barrel will sometimes confirm that the player is very noticeably sharper than me, despite the similarity of setup. I have yet to explain that one!
Another factor is the group you are playing with and how reliable the tuning is within. In a professional orchestra I rarely need to tune away from the expected settings but in other groups tuning can be all over the place and totally impossible to conform to.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2024-10-26 15:57
I think it was Peter Eaton who said/wrote that a clarinet doesn't have a pitch until any particular player blows it.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-10-26 20:21
< Pitch is not directly involved in the air pressure issue.>
That makes sense Paul.
I just did some facts checking, as there's nothing like getting stuck into something almost entirely useless on a Saturday afternoon. Apparently air pressure ( molecular density) has no affect on the speed of sound, so what I've read about variables in the composition of the air forming a vibrating air column affecting pitch by way of changing the speed of sound, can only come down to the density of water molecules. If the density of air molecules as a product of altitude has no effect on sound velocity, then presumably neither does the density of air molecules as a result of air temperature . Hence the only significance of temperature in the whole matter must relate to how much of the water vapor is condensing out of the vibrating molecules onto the sides of the bore.
The humidity content of our breath is apparently very constant, because irregardless of the humidity levels in the air we inhale, our lungs boost it up to close to 100% ( RH) permitted by our breath temperature, which in turn is very constant as a product of our stable body temperature.
What this means in practical terms, is that if you happen to be a mammal, then you should have far less trouble staying in tune than if you're not. ( Always a reassuring thought in a dark moment ! )
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-10-27 04:14
I have been involved in rehearsals and performances outside in poor weather conditions and inside when the temperature was uncomfortable in both directions. So I must say that when the prevailing temperature is COLD, you will play flatter. When the temperature is uncomfortably high (outside, middle of sunny Summer for example), you will play sharp. This tendency is directly related to how active the molecules of air are. The faster they vibrate, the higher the pitch.......frequency.
My suggestion for tuning under less than ideal conditions is to receive the pitch (in an ensemble setting) from the tuba which is most disadvantaged by extremes of air temperature. The other winds will tend in the same direction but MUST let the the tuba set the standard.
As far as other specifics mentioned above, I'll admit not really following most of that and would rather just deal with the realities of pitch problems than explain all the reasons why.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2024-10-27 06:41
Just wondering in your group if they are listening and adjusting as you are.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-10-27 10:56
As to the relation between barrel length and tuning difference in hertz, e.g. the two barrels provided with some Buffet clarinets differ with one mm - for a tuning level of 440 or 442 (just looked at a Buffet RC Prestige Bb with 65 and 66mm barrels). So yes, one mm difference in length would equal about 2 Hz.
According to Gerold clarinets, a temperature deviation of 2° C changes the overall tuning by 1 hertz.
Post Edited (2024-10-27 21:13)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-10-27 21:10
About a year ago there was a thread here where the poster had experienced a more or less sudden, about 20 cents overall sharpness (equals a rise from 440 to about 445 Hz!) - with the very same setup as for several years. If I understood it correctly, it all turned out to be due to a change from a low to a high tongue position. Thus differing tongue positions would be a possible explanation for differing pitch levels with the same equipment.
Usually a high tongue position is recommended for better tone quality, but if coupled with a too tight embouchure or perhaps an unnecessarily strong reed, the result could be sharpness.
In my opinion, an instrument with its original barrel should ideally be about 7-8 cents flat (about 2 Hz at the low clarion B level) when starting playing - in an ambient room temperature of about 20-21° C. Then, after some minutes of warming up, it would reach the desired pitch level without the need to pull out the barrel. That way the internal pitch wouldn't get distorted, but in case of warmer than usual playing conditions you still have the option of a pull out.
As already commented on above, when selecting an aftermarket barrel, a fixed one of the same length as the original one, may depending on its bore design be flatter or sharper than the original one - and thus its length should be chosen accordingly.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-10-28 13:25
So unsurprisingly it appears that you are correct on all counts Paul. The speed of sound and its influence on pitch is unaffected by rarified air at high altitude, or indeed the rarified air as a result of higher temperatures. However, the kinetic energy of the molecules as relating to air temperature is what does effect the speed of sound apparently, as although the space between molecules is widened by increased temperature , they are buffeting one another more actively, and so up goes the velocity of sound transmission. (Sounds a bit like a children's kindergarten 🤔).
My eyesight is not quite up to verifying this personally, but hopefully this is closer to the relevant (or more likely irrelevant) physics of the matter.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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