 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-04 15:02
After my gold one from RDG Woodwinds, now the nickel one from eBay. Upper screw stopped functioning. I don't know why. I don't think I overtighten. Though I like to screw the ligature until It locks the reed well so not being possible to move from side to side but I don't consider that overtightening. Maybe because they're non-inverted they get direct pressure? I'll have to upgrade to something with better build quality that gives a similar focus to the sound Bonades give. Probably Ishimori?
Changing screws could be a solution but sound and response also change with that. I like stock screws.
Post Edited (2024-09-04 15:05)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-04 17:06
Wait. Slow down a little. What happens when you try to tighten the top screw? Have you tried exchanging the two screws between top and bottom? Does the tightening problem follow the screw or stay in the top eyelet?
It's a long jump from "Upper screw stopped functioning" to "upgrade to something with better build quality." FWIW, I've used (on and off) Bonades for 60 years - granted, they've always been inverted - and never had a screw or tightening failure. So it seems important to try to figure out what's going wrong.
Karl
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-04 17:22
It's not a long jump as the same thing happened on my gold one. One screw stopped working. I exchanged the screws, It worked for a couple of days, then both stopped functioning. On my nickel I can't exchange the screws for some reason, lower screw doesn't fit on the upper thread.
The top screw just stopped tightening. It doesn't tighten any more. Maybe because they're non-inverted and screws naturally receive more tention and vibration? That doesn't happen as often with the inverted ones?
Since It's the second time happening to me, my conclusion is that non-inverted ones aren't good quality, although they play great.
Post Edited (2024-09-04 17:26)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-09-04 18:00
FWIW- I have used the standard non inverted Bonades for years and have never had this issue with any of them.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-09-04 18:34
I've gone about a self discovery of late regarding ligatures to find that NON-inverted ligatures actually are the BEST ligatures for reed performance and they can be put up against virtually any other inverted ligature (I own virtually every ligature) and be found to be so much better (much of the time).
That was a long way of saying that I recently bought a nickel, non-inverted Bonade and it is AMAZING on all levels (so is the cheap Hite by the way). It is my "go-to" ligature even when other factors are giving me problems.
Here's my suggestion. As advised to my by no less than William Brannen (was the best repair person in the US) one should apply a decent weight (30w....Hetman's heavy) key oil to the screws of ANY ligature first thing when you get it......and be regular about it as you should with your pivots and axles. THEN for tightening, make sure that you start to check the "side to side" motion from the point the screws start to grab. Then continue CHECKING every quarter turn thereafter. You may be surprised just how tight things get sooner than you think.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-09-04 18:38
I've never stripped the screws on a Bonade. Sounds like you might need something more heavy duty like a Rovner.
Who knows if you're stripping the treads on the screw or the receiver, but it's pretty safe to say replacement screws will have zero effect on the sound. If you're consistently stripping the screws, you're over tightening.
Post Edited (2024-09-05 05:46)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-04 20:59
Jimis4klar wrote:
> After my gold one from RDG Woodwinds, now the nickel one from
> eBay. Upper screw stopped functioning. I don't know why.
But you still haven't, even in your second post, described what *is* happening when you try to tighten the failing screw, only that it "stopped functioning" or "stopped tightening." Does the screw keep turning freely in the eyelet but doesn't tighten the ligature any further? Does the screw go in easily and then stop moving and feel stuck? If you move the ligature down the mouthpiece a little bit, does the ligature still stop tightening? Does the failed screw work when you move it to the bottom and move the bottom screw to the top? When you loosen the failing screw, does it thread its way back out or does it slide out?
BTW, how do the ligatures fit on your mouthpiece. It the mouthpiece is very wide-bodied (ligature is too small for it), there's an outside possibility that the screws are being bound up by the angle. That would probably affect both screws, but maybe not. Of course if the mouthpiece has a very narrow body (the ligature is too large for it), the ligature could tighten to the point where the eyelets are touching and can't go any farther, even though the ligature may not be tight enough to hold the reed securely (think of using a Bb ligature on an Eb mouthpiece). You would most likely see either of these problems, which are not ligature problems per se, but problems with how the ligs fit the mouthpiece.
Bonade ligatures have been around since Bonade played in the U.S. and have no reputation for screw failures. If the ligature itself, or even the screws themselves (the top and bottom screws aren't different and should be interchangeable), are the problem, certainly replace yours with something else. But you have us all wondering now what could be going wrong with both of yours. This has for me become an object of curiosity.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-09-04 22:46
I think I've played on my Bonade ligature for about 50 years with no problem.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-05 01:16
kdk- > Screw keeps turning freely in the eyelet but doesn't tighten the ligature any further. That's what happens. Ligature may still function on thinner body mouthpieces. This time I was using D'addario Evolution which is thicker body but that doesn't have anything to do with the ligature's screws failure. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not able to exchange screws on the nickel Bonade (place bottom screw on the top thread and top screw on the bottom thread), I tried but they don't screw in. They screw in only in the position they are which one screw doesn't work.When I loosen the failing screw It does thread Its way back out, yes.
Post Edited (2024-09-05 01:18)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-09-05 04:38
I agree with Paul's thoughts. I also tried a number of ligatures over the years. Sometimes it was just interesting to see what effect they had (if any). Years back I used inverted Bonades, sometimes with the center cut out in the Marcellus style. Some time ago I changed to the standard Bonade because for me, it seemed to be a little more focussed where the inverted was a little more diffused.
I also agree that it is a good idea to use some oil or light grease on ligature screws. It probably prevents some wear, but also keeps them moving really smoothly. It does seem that you are likely overtightening and stripping the screw or threads. It is easy to do. I try to be careful to only tighten until they are just snug.
One issue with the Bonades which has been discussed over the years is that when they are new the plating on the inside is pretty slick which leads them to slip, especially when taking the mouthpiece off. That often leads to over tightening to try to keep them stable. The solution is to rough up the inside with some sandpaper. The texture will keep them from slipping. Another option is to put a thin mouthpiece patch or piece of tape on the back of the mouthpiece or even some really thin cork on the inside of the ligature. I generally do not like that approach since it seems to dampen the tone and response slightly.
Bonades are a really good ligature and very affordable
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-05 06:16
Jimis4klar wrote:
> kdk- > Screw keeps turning freely in the eyelet but doesn't
> tighten the ligature any further.
I know it isn't likely, but could you possibly be putting the screws in from the wrong side? One eyelet - the one the end of the screw goes into - is threaded. The eyelet on the side of the thumb plate is not. The screw needs to go through the non-threaded eyelet into the threaded one.
Your ligatures were bought as non-inverted originally, weren't they?
Karl
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-05 14:52
kdk- Yes, they're non-inverted. Screws are already in right direction, from non-threaded eyelet to the threaded one.
Ed- I don't think I overtightened although obviously that happened because of often screwing and unscrewing when I try reeds.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-05 15:54
I don't know how wide the D'addario Evolution's body is, but in case the ligature top screw when tightened doesn't go all the way through its threaded eyelet counterpart - but only partly - it could cause stripped threads. The risk for this would also increase with thicker heel reeds.
To be sure, watch the threaded eyelet when you start tightening its screw, and be sure you see the screw is all the way through before it starts feeling tight. If not, release the ligature and move it closer to the tip of the mouthpiece, then try again. If you still can't see the screw coming out before it starts feeling tight, either try to find longer screws, or another ligature, more suitable to the mouthpiece/reed size in question.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-05 17:03
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> I don't know how wide the D'addario Evolution's body is, but in
> case the ligature top screw when tightened doesn't go all the
> way through its threaded eyelet counterpart - but only partly -
> it could cause stripped threads. The risk for this would also
> increase with thicker heel reeds.
>
Jimis4klar, I don't know if it would show anything useful, but it might be possible to see what's going on if you could include a photo of the mouthpiece/ligature setup at the point when it stops tightening.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-05 18:28
Image attachments can be frustrating on this software, but make sure the image size is less than 2 MB.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-05 18:34
The video is almost certainly too big. I don't know how large the IMG files are. If you have access to a shareable cloud file storage space (Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.) you could post it there and put the link to it in a post. The IMG files may be too large, also. Those can either be resaved in a photo editor at a lower resolution and file size or also shared on a cloud service.
Karl
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-05 18:35
Sorry for the unnecessary posts. I was trying to upload here directly but wasn't letting me, so I did on Google drive.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S9DpB8f5zQDl123t6nsXVib-h2ns6ST0/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13LsonMsiLk8Hz1DZmcRvNnlcgUOvqcBy/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CVppbQGxqbJH89tnUNR4TbfOfEdzVE9Q/view
Let me know if they open.
Post Edited (2024-09-05 18:49)
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2024-09-05 19:03
They open fine Jimis4klar .
To add yet another question, do you tighten one screw as tight as possible and then the other or do you tighten one until it's snug; tighten the other until it's snug; go back to the first one and tighten fully; go back to the second and tighten it fully?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-09-05 19:27
You can see the rounding of the screw threads in both the video and the stills. I think the previous owner over muscled the ligature. Buy one from Frederick Weiner.......they're only $21.00 (and by all means, stick with the non inverted).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-05 19:28
I generally tighten screws to the point where they lock the reed, which means not being able to move it from side to side with my fingers. Here the lower screw is tightened just enough, and the upper screw as you see stopped functioning.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-05 19:50
> Buy one from Frederick Weiner
I checked and shipping gets too much for my location, 28,95 euro plus 11,74 euro taxes.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-09-05 20:40
It certainly looks in the video like the screw's threads are stripped close to where it goes into the threaded eyelet. For it to turn like that and not just jam up, it seems like the threads inside the eyelet must also be gone. It seems as though the ligature can't stand up to the way you use it. I'd argue that it isn't a build problem, but a mismatch between user and ligature. I'm not sure that another ligature with the same kind of screw mechanism would stand up any better. You might do better with the single-screw models like Vandoren Optimal or any of the Rovner ligatures. I like the Rovner Versa X as a second choice to my Bonade inverted.
It does look like the ligature is a little too small for the mouthpiece, so the screw goes in at too much of an angle. So, more than a user mismatch, it may be a mouthpiece mismatch. I have several D'Addario Reserve mouthpieces, but I've never handled an Evolution model.
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-09-05 22:44
I don't see any issue with sizing and have used Bonades on similar sized mouthpieces.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-09-05 23:33
Screws are definitely stripped. Lig looks pretty old too. If you got used off eBay, the seller just dumped a broken lig on you. I'd ask for a refund if it isn't too late. Buy any new lig from any source you can.
Post Edited (2024-09-06 05:16)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2024-09-06 01:53
i second pauls praise of the hite ligature on bass clarinet. i can really tell the difference in responce esp the lower register. its got a fair amount of tech for a low priced ligature for me its a perfect comprmise between a free blowing rovner and the sound of a bonade
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Author: moma4faith
Date: 2024-09-06 06:14
Sorry for your ligature troubles, Jim. I would agree that the ligature screw is stripped. I have had students' Bonades slip, which I fix by putting a few small horizontal scores into the metal with my screwdriver. I have had one very old Bonade pop the weld where the screw goes in. I've never had one of mine strip. When we tighten these screws, it is metal on metal and the surfaces in there can degrade to the point of no longer working. I usually see this on "no name" standard ligatures that come with the instruments of my students. You may be over tightening. I have a D'Addario mp similar to yours (your swirls are much prettier than mine) and it does seem to open up some of my ligatures a little wider, which puts more stress on the screws and receptacles. Maybe you could experiment with not tightening "as much" as you are used to doing. Once my screw/screws grab, I back off, adjust my reed, and maybe give a slight 1/8 or 1/4 turn. It doesn't take much to keep that reed in line. Good luck! I have a few different inverted ligatures, and have always enjoyed Bonades.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-06 12:07
Thank you moma4faith! That's my fault, I tighten little more than It needs and change reeds too often when trying them. I should have been using a generic ligature when trying reeds and the Bonade when I play a good one for an extended period.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2024-09-06 16:27
Hello, good news. Eventually I was able to exchange the screws(place top screw in lower thread and lower screw on the top thread). At first I thought I couldn't, they had some resistance and I was hesitant to screw them in further but eventually It's possible. From now on I'll be putting baby girl's strength when I'm tightening so my ligature will last. Not that I was putting too much strength but I'll be putting less than I used to.
Post Edited (2024-09-06 16:32)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2024-09-06 23:06
you can also replace stripped screws with screws from ace hardware. i have done ithis on my giggilotti ligs and everyone knows how easy these strip. you need a cap type screw and a end nut that tightens by hand. it works and is better than throwing out the lig.
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