 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JJB
Date: 2024-02-04 22:30
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to mouthpiece specs and I'd like to understand how my 3 mouthpieces compare.
I have been playing Bb for ~36 years, just as an amateur in community groups. My university professor recommended I buy a Borbeck #13. I played that for 23 years. For the last 5 years or so I've been using a Fobes CF+.
Just recently I've been working with a teacher, a very fine pro orchestra player. He thought my sound could be improved and yesterday he had me try several BD5 (13)s. He picked the one he thought I sounded the best on and I took it home. The only issue: I spent about 30 min playing on this mouthpiece later and the intonation seems a bit iffy so far. I need more time to evaluate and decide if this is something I can adjust to or not. Buyer's remorse may be on the horizon.
Can anyone help me understand how the Borbeck 13, CF+, and BD5 specs compare? The Fobes MP chart says the CF+ is comparable to the BD5, but the opening is 1.0 vs. 1.13 on the BD5. I've never found any specs for the Borbeck.
Post Edited (2024-02-05 05:08)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-05 00:02
What I can say definitively is that specs won't necessarily tell you how a mouthpiece will work. That is, you can make some educated guesses based on some vague generalities, but playing will be the only way to work that out.
For example: A short facing will play "harder" than a long facing with the same size tip opening. You can use a ruler held off the side of a desk to illustrate. Hold a ruler about half off a desk and strum it. Now move the ruler so that only about 4 inches hangs off the desk. Strum it. The shorter length vibrates faster, and at a higher pitch (less of the ruler wags). This is what happens to a reed on a shorter facing.
Then there is the tip opening itself which pretty straight forward. The more open, the harder the reed has to work to vibrate the way it does for a smaller opening.
Then there is a very real effect caused by the depth of the tone chamber. This can effect both how quickly the reed responds as well as how easy (or hard) it feels to blow a note (separate from the response.....much harder to describe or predict in combination with other factors).
I use a CF+ occasionally myself but still feel that an old Hawkins (R facing) has bigger, freer response. This is an effect that is caused by the tone chamber according to Clark Fobes himself.
I'd ask though, did your teacher HEAR you play the BD5 and say that he liked your sound on that better? The production of the sound that carries (what really matters if you perform) can be quite different from what we hear internally.
There is now a BD2 which has a much more similar tip opening to the Fobes (and my Hawkins) that makes me almost curious enough to try it. The BD5 is more like a B45; it is a fairly open mouthpiece.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: JJB
Date: 2024-02-05 00:29
Thanks very much Paul. I understand your point about the specs not necessarily meaning anything. I guess I'm wondering if there's something I should expect to feel or sound different between these 3 MPs based on their specs.
The Fobes felt a lot more comfortable to play than the Borbeck - when I tried to switch back some months later, I had trouble not getting a pinched sound on my old MP. The BD5 feels like it takes more air pressure than the Fobes, but it's not dramatic - still comfortable. Then we have the possible intonation issues on the BD5 - currently the throat tones seem a bit flatter than I'm used to. Should any of this make sense based on the MP parameters? I suppose this is satisfying my curiosity more than anything.
Yes, my teacher heard me play on 3 different BD5s and my Fobes MP and he picked the one he thought sounded the best. He also had me try a 2nd reed and immediately said "oh I like that one better." Apparently I'm terrible at evaluating my own sound because I could not detect much difference between anything. I trust his judgement; just wish I understood what could be influencing the differences he was hearing.
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Author: petrosv
Date: 2024-02-19 23:02
Unless you can pin point what YOU do not like or what YOU want to change in your sound I'd recommend going back to the old and spending alot of time listening and evaluating your sound. THEN if you can say some exact things you want to change THEN you can decide do I need a more open piece need different cut reed both and get evaluation from your teacher. Though it's up to you to trust him BUT keep in mind it's YOU that is playing.
Here's a nifty way to pretty quickly find out alot about reeds. It is Robert Marcellus's way of breaking in reeds (there's a video about it from one of his students) it's a goldmine.
Take a box of your reeds (new) and open all 10. Soak the tips in water (all 10) and let dry. NEXT DAY line up the reeds. Dip each in WATER one by one never use saliva to wet your reed, then try reed #1 #2 #3 etc all through #10 but only for 1 minute and 80% in the lower register and you will be amazed that every reed plays differently. And what you do in the process is put the best playing reed (in your opinion) all the way left and rate them so after all 10 they are in order best #1 to worst #10
Then let them dry and NEXT DAY do the same thing FOR 21 days!
You will find that reed #1 on day 1 will suddenly jump to #5 on day 3 these reeds will change some might not but after 21 days you will have eliminated many of them that are just not getting better or are gettign worse every day. After 21 days typically you get 1 2 3 sometimes 4 even 5 reeds but mostly 1 2 or 3
THEN you start on another box and after a few months your have 5-6-7-8 reeds that are primo.
He mentioned that someone like Stanley Drucker would go through $500 worth of reeds in a year to find 1-2 concert reeds that are gold. If this seems weird he mentioned Robert Marcellus gave him a reed to play once in a lesson and he said it was the best reed he ever played and Marcellus said "that's my WORST reed it's 14 years old" so when you use water and break in like that they last for decades in rotation.
But I tell you that so you can really crack open the reed thing I found it stunning...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-20 01:43
Wow "petrosv," that sounds like a much MUCH longer timed version of what I do in four to five days. And I agree that you get the most reliable assessment out of anything similar. Could you point us to that video? I'd LOVE to see it from a source.
JJB,
Sorry I missed the response of yours from two weeks ago. I don't say that specs don't tell you anything.......they sure do!!!! What is confusing is that there are at least six MAJOR variables that overlap and in many cases contravene one another. So you have to try and assess the parameters the best you can. The trouble is that many manufacturers and refacers want you to buy THEIR mouthpiece and it is a little easier to get you to try their mouthpieces if you don't immediately rule out something they do that you wouldn't like. They do THAT by telling you as little as possible.
In your case though, I'd say that if you truly like the sound your teacher gets AND you trust what he is saying, then follow his advice because the best guide to what others hear is............what they hear. You can simply go by what you thing you hear if you're only playing at home for your own enjoyment (no ensembles or competitive scenarios).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: JJB
Date: 2024-02-20 03:25
Thank you both for the follow-up. I am in a symphonic band and I tried the BD5 for one rehearsal, but ultimately was uncomfortable with the potential tuning issues and I've set it aside for now. I am not a soloist and I'm just one of quite a few clarinets, so I doubt a minor improvement in my tone would register anyway.
petrosv - your first paragraph is very logical & practical, thank you. And the reed info is very interesting.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2024-02-20 17:56
I value intonation and response over tone. You can get all 3 but don’t trade the first 2 for tone.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: petrosv
Date: 2024-02-21 18:23
Here is the fascinating video I referenced amazing to think Marcellus came up with this plan but it just goes to show how much thought and hard work it takes to become a master at your instrument, nothing is left the chance every aspect has to be master including reeds and mouthpieces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmTL_AOEOiQ
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-22 09:14
Thank you so much 'petrosv' for this video.
ONE: I think it is some amazing stuff. And EVERYONE should do some sort of break-in period like this. I feel this is probably the best way to go (28 days; just water; short play period).
TWO: For all the Summer seminars with Marcellus I NEVER heard him talk through this at all. It would have been easy enough to mention and describe without taking the full 35 minutes of this video. There were plenty of days within those Summer sessions where Marcellus spoke about how to work on reeds and such, so it strikes me as odd that this is the first I've heard of this.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: petrosv
Date: 2024-02-26 00:33
Hey Paul you're welcome I was fascinated with this video. WOW you went to some seminars with Marcellus! Can you relay some of the ideas behind working the reeds. So far I have tried and ruined quite a few!
Thanks!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-26 01:26
Had I been able to internalize what folks talked about back then I probably would do better than just tossing out the ones that don't work. There was the usual conversations about the "Reed Dual" which was still quite popular back in the 80s (basically a key copying machine for reeds). it was always a day's worth of discussion about the use of reed knives and such, but I swear there was NEVER any talk of just taking a month to break in reeds. And of course there was always the mention of Iggy Gennusa leaving a reed on his mouthpiece for days "when the molecules all lined up."
The real benefit to attending the seminars was that (despite Marcellus' impending blindness) he would play some examples every now and then. I have NEVER heard a sound so pure and reverberant at all amplitudes before or since. Truly as awe inspiring as it was just darn spooky.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2024-02-26 01:48
Petrosv,
Do you adjust/balance the reeds at all during the 21-day break-in? Or do you wait until you choose the best ones, then fine-tune them, if needed?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2024-02-26 01:59
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Had I been able to internalize what folks talked about back
> then I probably would do better than just tossing out the ones
> that don't work.
The most consistent advice I had from any of my teachers (including Gigliotti) was that I had to learn to adjust reeds by ruining a lot of them. Gigliotti did, for sure, talk about a break-in period, but it was days, not weeks or a month.
Karl
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