 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: PEDRO FUENTES
Date: 2023-08-10 22:37
It was never my intention to seek advice from any of you. I was just making you aware of the risk of doing business with people like Reberb and Puchon. I bought this YCL 650 from Reverb mainly because I liked their statement about helping people to get their return, " we got your back " Reverb wrote. Reverb got my clarinet from PUCHON. Nowhere in the ad or in the invoice PUCHON wrote that they do not have a refund policy. Just because I opened the clarinet pckg. box and play a few scales they denied the refund because they consider it a used instrument. I turn to Reberb and they did not help me.
Now when I posted this "be aware message," most of you tried to tell me what I should have done. You have treated me as if I were a moron who is getting what I deserve. In my 40+ playing the clarinet I have never encountered such unscrupulous sellers and a group of fellow musicians who are basically criticizing me for my post instead of thanking me for the CAVEAT. Do I not deserve your support.? Remember what they did to me today can do it to any of you tomorrow.
I do not belong in this group. I am requesting from Charette to remove my account from the Board.
I hope my decision to leave make all you as happy as I am.
Do not bother to reply. This is my last post.
Post Edited (2023-08-11 00:57)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-08-11 19:51
Dear Mr. Fuentes,
While my old computer was warming up this morning, believe it or not, I thought about your original post and the responses that you received. And here is what I came up with before I came to this BB site:
1) I truly regarded your post as a warning and not as a complaint.
2) I viewed the well meaning advice from others as almost being soft "put downs" or "I'm smarter than you because I take these various precautions so that this never happens to me".
3)I agree with you when you stated above that you were not looking for advice. You simply didn't ask for any.
As I though about your previous "warning" post, I said to myself...here's a guy who just lost $2000, he's hurting emotionally, and he did his best to protect himself as to getting a monetary return in case he didn't like the instrument.
Then I thought further about the responses. IMHO, I couldn't find one tenth of an ounce of compassion or empathy in any of them. Well, here's my small amount of compassion and empathy for you: "I feel sad that this happened to you and I thank you for your warning".
I'm not going to go into any further detail about the responses you received because with my having posted on this BB for around 20 years, I like to think that I "know" this BB and a war of words would probably break out and that also saddens me
Pedro, I wish you well and hope that things somehow, someway, work out for you as to the Yamaha clarinet that you still possess.
God bless.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-08-11 20:53
It may depend on how one interprets the responses. Often in online comments it can be hard to completely get the intent. I will offer that my comments were merely to add to the OP's experience and offer suggestions or warnings for anyone who is buying online. I did not intend any judgement and hope it did not come across that way.
Buying online can be a minefield and one always has to be very careful.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-11 23:02
Ed: Let's bring back the shops, where you more or less know what you're getting. A new business model is closing the shops down one after the other. Sometimes it's worth paying a bit more and getting better, more humane service.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-08-11 23:32
Quote:
Sometimes it's worth paying a bit more and getting better, more humane service.
Yes! for sure. While we have gained things with technology, we also lose things, namely the human part
Post Edited (2023-08-12 06:06)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-08-12 00:13
I think this is especially the case with music shops.
We used to have a general music shop, a specialist string shop, and a specialist woodwind shop. Now we only have the woodwind shop.
When I bought my clarinet I definitely needed to go to a shop to try some. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to choose one from photos online.
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Author: ISM
Date: 2023-08-12 01:21
I agree that we should try to keep the small shops alive. The last time I purchased an instrument it was for my son. I’m confident that I could have gotten a lower price on the used instrument buying online. But, he was able to try several instruments and get some knowledgeable advice. I was confident that we could go back if any small adjustments were needed. The service was worth the somewhat higher price.
Unfortunately, even in cities it can today be difficult to find such shops. Let’s try to keep the ones that remain.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-12 09:17
ISM and Sunny: A shopkeeper here in Paris told me that people come into his shop, try out mouthpieces and clarinets, take up his time...and then buy the gear from Thomann!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-08-12 12:46
Hi Ruben,
Yes I can totally imagine that happening.
I think it must be super-hard trying to compete with online sellers now.
I'm really glad we have a woodwind shop here. It would be impossible for me to play at all if they weren't there to sort me out every time I have equipment problems.
Every time birthday or Christmas come along I ask for present from shop in the hope that those little bits of money help to pay them for all the time that they have spent giving me advice.
They do charge for equipment and reeds and things, but not for advice, which must take up such a lot of their time.
I think it would be good if they could charge for advice, and then their good customer service would turn into a revenue stream for them, and it wouldn't matter quite so much if people went and bought online.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-08-12 12:50
Ruben - do you know La Cave a Vents in Paris? Very cool little shop...
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-12 19:15
Donald: Yes, I know it. -cool, indeed, but pricey. I know a similar place in Normandy. The gentleman keeps his instruments in the basement of his house and overhauls them himself. His prices are far more reasonable. I'll try to remember the name of the place.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-08-12 19:39
I treat shopping brick and mortar like tipping at a restaurant, it's just what you do. I only shop online for things that are too esoteric for local stores.
I think we should all try that. Ya know, the obsession with getting things just a little cheaper is why we are ALL wearing shirts from Bangladesh (not that there is anything wrong with that).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-08-12 19:45
Quote:
ISM and Sunny: A shopkeeper here in Paris told me that people come into his shop, try out mouthpieces and clarinets, take up his time...and then buy the gear from Thomann!
Unfortunately that seems to be very common. I have known local shops who had thousands of dollars in nice guitars who tell me the same. They spend lots of time with a customer going over the models, features, etc and then buy elsewhere.
While we can blame the customer, there have also been business practices from the companies that fed into it. Years ago, pre internet, when WWBW was only catalogue and mail order, I went into my repairman's shop and inquired about trying some Buffet clarinets. He usually had 10-12 instruments in stock that he set up. He told me that he did not have any available. When I asked when he would have more, he told me that he was no longer going to order them.
He expressed to me that it was becoming harder to sell them. People would come in and accuse him of inflating the prices because they could buy them cheaper mail order. He said that mail order price was often the same or less than what the clarinet cost him. There were prices available to the huge sellers because of the number they sold. They were also able to cut their profit margin and make it up in volume. He also invested time and money into setting all the instruments up, which many of the large outfits did not do. For someone at his level it became impossible to compete.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-08-12 20:21
I got in difficulties when I went to buy my clarinet, because the shop owner didn't believe that I actually wanted to hand over £2500 right there and then. It took quite a lot of explaining before I actually convinced him.
Since then I've been much more careful to properly introduce myself by name and be respectful to independent shop owners, before then asking to buy something.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-08-13 09:02
I think that trying a MP or an instrument in a shop and then buying it from an internet seller defeats the purpose of trying the instrument.
The buyer may save some money if buying a student level instrument, but if you tried a clarinet in a shop and got another one from WWBW/Thomann, you've got a different instrument than the one you tried.
Recently, I was trying a clarinet in a small shop- they had four of the model I wanted. Two were better than the other two, and out of the better two, one was still better- I bought that one.
Are you going to order four "professional" level clarinets off WWBW/Thomann, try them and send three back? I would not.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-13 09:28
1964: Absolutely! Two different instruments of the same brand and model are not the same instrument. The same goes for mouthpieces, barrels, etc..
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-08-13 10:09
Dan, thank you for your empathetic writing - and for taking your time writing it.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-08-14 09:35
Micke Isotalo, Thank you for your kind words. They are much appreciated.
I spent most of today trying to figure out why PEDRO FUENTES could not return his Yamaha YCL-650 to Reverb and thereby lost $2000.
It pains me to say this, however, after hours of research, all indications point in the direction that Mr. Fuentes was not entirely truthful to us.
1) When Mr. Fuentes stated "Reverb has your back", that was only a part of their full or complete statement. Reverb's statement actually says: "Reverb has your back if your item is lost, damaged, or doesn't match its description. Simply report any issues within 7 days and we'll help you get a full refund." After this statement, there is a clickable link titled: "Learn more about Reverb Buyer Protection." I clicked on it and out came the following: "All purchases on the site are backed by our Reverb Buyer Protection. If anything arrives damaged or not as described, contact the seller or Reverb within 7 days of delivery with photos and/or videos of the issues. We always recommend contacting the seller first, as the majority of issues are resolved between buyers and sellers. (The bold type was done by me.)
2) Under the picture of the clarinet on Reverb are the following: "About this Listing", "Reverb Buyer Protection", "Product Specs", "Reverb Protection", and then "About This Seller". Under the name of the seller, there is a clickable link titled: "Payments & Returns". The store that I had chosen for another YCL-650 had the following when I clicked about learning more about returns: "Return Policy...This item is sold As-Described and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed. Items must be returned in original, as-shipped condition with all original packaging." In other words, whenever any player does a short trial, it is no longer in "as-shipped condition" and my interpretation of this is that the seller now considers it a used instrument which matches what Mr. Fuentes wrote above in this new thread.
3) Puchon Instruments is listed on Facebook, eBay and Reverb. Here's their Reverb web page: https://reverb.com/shop/puchoninstruments I put in YCL-650 into their search engine and came up with 10 results. One of them was used and quite expensive, but had a full return policy of 30 days; another one was brand new, $2,293.99 from The Irvine Music Store, and when I clicked on Return Policy, I got the following: "This item is sold As-Described and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed. Items must be returned in original, as-shipped condition with all original packaging." In other words...no trial period.
I apologize for this long, exhausting post, however, I just felt compelled to figure out why Mr. Fuentes didn't get his money back.
I still feel sad for his monetary loss and being stuck with a clarinet not to his liking.
So, Hunter_100, IMO, you hit the nail right on the head. It strongly appears that Mr. Fuentes, unknowingly chose a YCL-650 that had a "no trial period" policy.
Edited for spelling errors and sentence restructuring.
Post Edited (2023-08-14 10:59)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-08-14 16:06
Thanks for the update. As the policy is "cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described," the seller is being honest and likely will not take an instrument back if it is not to one's taste. As has been stated, it is really important to read the small print.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-08-14 16:58
Ed, yes, it is really important to read ALL of the small print.
Another important item came to my mind this morning. Mr. Fuentes stated above: "Reverb got my clarinet from PUCHON". My research indicates that that statement is not true. It appears that Reverb does not really have any inventory. The clarinets remain continually with the original seller and that is why it is so important to find out what the original seller's terms of sales really are.
Some of Puchon's YCL-650's had trial periods while others did not.
So, to sum it all up, my research indicates Reverb and Puchon are not at fault and therefore Mr. Fuentes warning about avoiding Puchon is, IMO, not to be taken seriously. As I stated above, the buyer needs to do their "due diligence" in determining whether the actual, original seller of a clarinet offers a "trial period" or not.
How does Reverb.com work?
https://www.reviewopedia.com/reverb-com-reviews
I don't believe Mr. Fuentes is a moron. He's a human being like all of us. I simply believe that, from time to time, all human beings make mistakes.
Post Edited (2023-08-14 17:31)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-08-14 17:55
I had assumed in my first comment that the Reverb seller returned the clarinet back to Pedro after denying the refund. I sincerely hope this is the case so that Pedro at least has the instrument in hand. I have a few people comment that that Pedro has lost ~$2000 from this deal, which is not accurate as long as he has the instrument back. If he sells the instrument, his total loss will be only the difference in sale price versus what he paid for it on reverb, plus shipping, taxes, etc.
If the seller kept the instrument while also refusing a refund, then it is absolutely criminal and Pedro should do everything possible to recover the lost funds. But it seems we will not hear how this turned out since Pedro left the conversation...
By the way, in case anyone else runs into this situation, I highly suggest you get a return authorization from the seller (in writing) before shipping an instrument back to them, and do everything possible to document the shipping information. A shady ebay/reverb seller could claim the instrument was lost in shipping and refuse a refund or simply claim you never sent it back and there is not much you can do about it once the instrument has left your possession.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-08-14 18:56
Hunter_100, thanks for your excellent suggestion about getting an RA in writing from the seller.
This part of Mr. Fuentes' posting above was, at first, very confusing to me: "Reverb got my clarinet from PUCHON. Nowhere in the ad or in the invoice PUCHON wrote that they do not have a refund policy. Just because I opened the clarinet pckg. box and play a few scales they denied the refund because they consider it a used instrument. I turn to Reberb and they did not help me."
To my understanding, Reverb never received the clarinet from Puchon. My understand is that Reverb acts like eBay...only that there is no bidding taking place. Reverb is actually a "go between agent" between buyer and seller. The "they" in the phrase: "they denied the refund" is actually Puchon because the invoice came from them. Also, Mr. Fuentes then states that: "I turn to Reberb and they did not help me." This last sentence further clarifies it to me that Reverb never had the clarinet in the first place.
IMHO, I sense that either Mr. Fuentes is confused or that he writes in a very confusing manner.
So where is the $2000?. I believe Puchon has the $2000 minus Reverb's fees. I also believe that Puchon sent the clarinet back to Fuentes, otherwise, as Hunter_100 stated above...a crime is being committed.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-08-14 21:21
Hi Hunter,
I totally get what you mean about getting agreement from the seller before returning an item.
I saw an example of really good practice when I ordered a mp from Clarinet and Flute in London.
I rang them in advance and asked if I could have the mp on loan for a week and they said "yes". I then received the mp, and tried it. When I realised it was not for me, I rang them to ask how they would like me to arrange return shipping, since it was a pricey item. They arranged the shipping themselves, which was great, because it meant that if anything went wrong during shipping then they could pursue it themselves, without me getting involved in a lot of paperwork.
I thought they had a really great set up.
Normally I would have gone to my local shop, but in this case, Clarinet and Flute were the only stockist (ex-demo Clark Fobes mp), so I had to buy online.
Jen
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Author: Jordan Selburn
Date: 2023-08-17 04:35
There are 2 sides to the "buy local" coin. Back in the 1990s (so pre-Internet), I was looking to buy a new pair of clarinets. I wanted to try out Buffet's then top model, the Prestige (this was before they had 471 different models). I live in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the United States, with a lot of live music and musicians, and not a single music store in the area had them in stock for me to try. One told me something similar to what Reuben posted above - "people come in and try an instrument, then they mail order it elsewhere."
Ok. ... but they followed it up with "We are happy to order you a pair if you want to buy them." In other words, they offered me the option to do business with a local shop IF:
- I was willing to pay the local shop full retail price rather than the discounted price I could get via mail-order.
- I was willing to accept whatever pair of clarinets the local shop happened to get (in a few weeks, maybe?), rather than getting a selection of 3 pairs of horns to try from the mail-order shop.
- I was willing to accept no option to return the clarinets to the local store if I didn't like them, rather than pay a small restocking fee to the mail order store if I didn't like any of the 3 pairs they sent.
Perhaps buying from the mail order shops was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
We had a similar situation when looking to buy my wife an instrument. In this case, a local shop had the make/model she was looking for, and it played well in the store's practice room. However, we wanted to try it in a more realistic acoustic environment, and to see how it blended in a group. We were willing to pay the full retail price for the horn.
- I asked about a weekend trial: no.
- I asked about a weekend trial if we gave them a 100% deposit: no.
- I asked if we could *rent* it for the weekend: yes, for $100 (this was a $4k instrument). OK, great!
- I then wanted to verify that if we bought the instrument, the rental fee would apply to the purchase price : no, we would have to pay the full retail price on top of the rental fee.
30 minutes later, I was back home and online, bought the instrument from a store in the middle of the country at a discount with a 1-week trial period, had it 3 days later and my wife has been happy with it ever since.
Jordan
Post Edited (2023-08-17 05:35)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-08-17 13:36
Hi Jordan,
I totally get what you mean about local shops. I think so much just comes down to getting a good relationship with the shop-keeper.
I read this amazing book a few years ago, which talks a great deal about how to talk respectfully to shopkeepers and it really transformed things for me.
It's called "French or Foe?: Getting the Most Out of Visiting, Living and Working in France"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/French-Foe-Getting-Visiting-Working/dp/0964668424
It seems as though French people really have a lot of cultural good sense around the business of talking to shop keepers, and this book explains how to do it well. I really found it extremely helpful.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-08-17 17:25
A discerning player will always expect to try many examples of a chosen model prior to purchase. The vendor should be a specialist retailer with a highly respected workshop.
In the UK decades ago pro players would wait for batches of instruments to be released and aim to be the first to try them BEFORE they were released to shops! As a student at the Royal College of Music my professor would engage in this process on my behalf, no doubt taking some commission along the way!
By the late 80s, when Buffet began to dominate here, Boosey and Hawkes owned the company and were able to ask for instruments at A=440. Their chief technician called to offer me first pick of 12 Bbs and 12 As. These were R13 Prestige although they had a few RCs as well.
After a day I had found the 2 I thought I wanted and along the way the technician had made adjustments as required. I then took the instruments away on 14 days approval with no money changing hands. Eventually those two instruments cost me just a little over £1900 in 1987. I keep trying new models but I have yet to find anything I like more.
Without the relationship with a good setup technician a player is only halfway there when buying an instrument. My present technician now spends much of his time setting up brand new instruments for players who wouldn't dream of playing them in the state they arrive in a shop. Keywork springing usually needs to be lightened and venting checked and adjusted. A few pads get changed to cork and I know some people who change all their skin pads to leather from the off!
I still have a lot of students and their parents who understandably forgot we're dealing with old tech here and not something like a phone or a computer.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-08-17 20:06
Donald: the seller I mentioned is called la Cave aux Instruments and is located in Bourg Achard in Normandy. The owner, Jean-Michel Plecety, drives into Paris with the instrument you want to try out. You usually try it out in a café rue de Rome! (if they like my playing, maybe they'll give me a gig!). His prices are much more reasonable than those of the shops on rue de Rome, and his instruments are in good, playable shape. I bought a really fine Leblanc L200 for about 500 euros.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-08-17 21:54
Hi Symphony1010,
Thank you for explaining all that. It really helps to understand how professionals go about this work, when they want to get it really right.
Jennifer
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2023-08-18 14:05
Just to point out that Buffet owned Boosey and Hawkes in the 1980s alongside Besson which was Boosey’s brass side. Symphony 1010 implied that Boosey owned Buffet. There’s a very interesting document about Boosey and Hawkes and the business online somewhere if anyone is interested. I‘ll see if I can find it.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2023-08-19 01:04)
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Author: timcmit
Date: 2024-06-10 02:10
It's my understanding that B&H did buy Buffet in 1981, selling it in 2003. In 2005/6 a reformed Buffet bought the instrument part of B&H which by that stage was little more than Besson.
https://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/our-story/
https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/16081/
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Author: Firstgarden
Date: 2024-06-16 05:18
Well, I can only empathize with this gentleman.
I will certainly not do business with Reverb.
Warning appreciated!
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-06-19 11:00
Reverb is not the problem, it's like the eBay of music. Sellers use Reverb as a platform to sell their musical gear and in turn, Reverb takes a commission.
Reese Oller
Clarinet student (performance major at Millikin University)
I can play bass clarinet, Eb clarinet, BBb contra, alto saxophone, bassoon at a decent level, and flute in a pinch.
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