 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tyleman
Date: 2022-02-07 13:07
I occasionally see ads for clarinets stating they are made of ebony. I was under the impression that most black wooden clarinets are made of grenadilla that has been stained. Are there actually any clarinets made of ebony?
TIA
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-02-08 03:17
Grenadilla, African blackwood, mpingo (Dalbergia melanoxylon) is what most wooden clarinets are usually made from and definitely not ebony (Diospyros genus) which piano keys, stringed instrument fingerboards, tuning pegs and other fittings are made from as well as some pro level recorders.
Wooden clarinet mouthpieces have been made from ebony (I think Pomarico still use ebony for their wooden clarinet and sax mouthpieces) and some 18th and 19th century clarinets may have also been made from ebony instead of the usual boxwood, although grenadilla has been the most popular choice of wood for woodwind instruments from the 20th century onwards.
The ads could be mistranslated from French as they call grenadilla 'ebene', or it could simply be poor knowledge on the seller's part if they call it ebony just because of its appearance.
Even cocobolo can easily be mistaken for both grenadilla and ebony as it turns jet black with age and that's part of the Dalbergia genus (along with grenadilla and kingwood/violetwood).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2022-02-08 21:20
Why didn't Stravinsky call his piece the Grenadilla Concerto?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-02-08 23:05
davyd wrote:
"Why didn't Stravinsky call his piece the Grenadilla Concerto?"
Or the Blackwood Concerto?
Or the Mpingo Concerto?
Or the Dalbergia Melanoxylon Concerto?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2022-02-09 00:18
Chris: you nicely summarised the difference between ebony and grenadilla, but the question remains: *why* don't people use ebony to make clarinets or oboes? It seems to have the same properties of hardness and stability that make grenadilla preferable to (say) boxwood. But is there a property that makes ebony not so desirable? It seems to be a lot harder than grenadilla, which suggests it might possibly just be harder to machine, but is closely comparable in hardness to cocobolo, so it can't be that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test). Is it perhaps brittle? Or maybe much rarer, so that grenadilla is cheaper? Given the experiments that we see in clarinets made of other woods these days, there must be a good reason why ebony isn't on the list.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-02-09 04:01
Chris is absolutely correct that in current useage "Ebony" refers to the Diospyros genus, not Dalbergia (grenadilla).
That said, Historically, it appears that ancient "ebony" included both Diospyros and Dalbergia species. The word "Ebony" is virtually unchanged from Latin, Greek, and even Egyptian forms. Etymologically it seems to mean "dull / blunt", perhaps referring to it's hardness. It's probably a descriptive, rather than a scientific term.
On page 49 (link below) it says that classical writers were loose about the term "Ebony", that D. melanoxylon was certainly among the species referred to, and even that the Arabic form refers exclusively to Dalbergia melanoxylon.
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1381754/
This is a good site, note the claim it makes about durability (perhaps why Grenadillla is preferred):
"To be considered the original ebony, African Blackwood was imported and used in Ancient Egypt thousands of years ago. Even the name “ebony” has an Egyptian derivation as “hbny”—which has been shown to refer to primarily to Dalbergia melanoxylon, rather than the species which are considered to be ebony today: such as those in the Diospyros genus. In addition, African blackwood is technically in the Rosewood genus (Dalbergia), and is more stable and resistant to movement and warping than other types of ebony."
https://www.wood-database.com/african-blackwood/
Common names are not consistently applied to scientific genera, and are usually older. So, it can be artificial to restrict the use of common names to only certain scientific species. Also, species are constantly being renamed and re-ordered, and their relation to common names is not always consistent.
The association of "ebony" with "Diospyros" seems to come from the fact that there is (or was) a family of flowering plants called "Ebenacae", and one genus in that family (but not the only one) is "Diospyros". As far as I can tell "Ebenacae" as a scientific term is less than 200 years old. It probably made sense at the time, because maybe most of the species included were dark. On the other hand, most of the species in Dalbergia are red. Unfortunately scientists are not etymologists or historians.
This reminds me of the whole "spiders are not bugs" thing. That always drove me nuts. I doubt very much that hundreds of years ago whoever applied "bug" to "little creepy crawly thing" did so with the intention of excluding spiders. LOL
So, people will correct you if you call D. melanoxylon "Ebony", but you wouldn't be wrong to do so.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2022-02-13 15:45)
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Author: hans
Date: 2022-02-09 04:39
Chris and Matthew,
Thank you for your very interesting posts.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2022-02-09 11:59
As I understand, density rather than hardness itself is desirable in clarinet woods. According to one source, of about all the more or less commercially available woods, Grenadilla is the 3. densest with 1,270 kg/m3, while Itin (Prosopis kuntzei) is the 2. with 1,275 kg/m3 (thus just a tad denser than Grenadilla) and Black ironwood (Krugiodendron ferreum) is the densest with 1,355 kg/m3.
At least Black ironwood seems to be very rare, but does someone know if these latter two woods has ever been used in clarinet making? If so, how did they compare to Grenadilla - concerning stability, durability, and sound/possible other playing characteristics?
This is the source about wood densities I looked at: https://www.wood-database.com/top-ten-heaviest-woods/
Edit: Interestingly, according to the same Website as above but on another page, Australian Waddywood (Acacia peuce) is actually quite a lot denser than Black ironwood - with 1,430 kg/m3. However, it's a protected desert tree not commercially available. That seems to be the reason why it's not included in the other list.
Post Edited (2022-02-09 23:39)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-02-09 19:53
Attachment: P7250001 (1).JPG (683k)
Attachment: P7260001.JPG (679k)
I've machined some ebony to make a tenor drone part for a vintage set of Highland bagpipes and it's nowhere near as nice to machine compared to grenadilla which seems to have a more waxy or plastic feel to it when being machined and yields a much better finish with very little to do to bring it up to a bright polished finish with a deep shine.
Unless the type of ebony I used was inferior quality that is - it has a dark grey appearance when freshly cut with light streaks in it, but turns a uniform jet black once papered up, oiled and polished.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-04-20 16:00
Aw man, now I feel like asking Buffet-Crampon to quote me a one-off, full-Boehm Black Ironwood Tosca. In B.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-22 05:26
Philip,
Thanks for bringing this topic back to the top of the page - I had missed it the first time around!
Great thread - very informative and cleared up some terminology for me.
Chris P,
I'd love to chat with you pertaining to an old instrument I have which might need some professional repair attention. Any chance you might be willing to drop me an e-mail or otherwise let me know how to reach you for such business? (If you accept individual repair jobs.)
Thanks!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: BarrelOfMonkeys
Date: 2023-04-23 17:55
You probably mean ebonite, aka hard rubber. The guy who perfected the acoustics for ebonite is Tom Ridenour. He makes the Lyrique clarinets. Amazing acoustics. As for other makers, what matters is what they do with the ebonite. Commonalities across makers: They don't crack or distort pitch/intonation during adverse weather conditions. Lots of pros play Lyriques for that reason when touring. Another pro level weatherproof clarinet is the Backun Alpha, which is made of plastic. It's their "student" model, but pros do use it. Many folks say it sounds as good as wood, and intonation is amazing, just as it is with Lyriques.
Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist
And people say I monkey around...
Post Edited (2023-04-23 18:01)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-04-23 20:35
I believe I've seen some Chinese clarinets advertised that claim to be Ebony.
I don't know what that's about and am happy to keep it that way .
" Ebonite "is a brand name, so that term for something made of hard rubber shouldn't appear in advertising unless it's produced by that company ( and I don't think that much IS anymore .)
Ebony or Ebonite ....it sounds like " made in China " to me .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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