 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2023-04-09 09:52
I envy people who regularly play sharp. It must be so easy to just pull out part of the instrument and be in tune again. Most players I know play sharp, yet Im all the way pushed in and still flat. "Just lip up" they say, "push in the barrel" they say. Itd be nice if I could do either!
About 4 years ago I started to notice that I played on the flat side. Ive been struggling to play in tune on the Clarinet, and despite the daily long tones and tuning drones my intonation has remained flat. Some days are worse than others. From what Ive read the common culprits for most (usually beginner) players are unfocused tone, poor embouchure/loose corners, incorrect voicing.
Maybe Im only able to play on the Bass Clarinet, because at least on that thing I can play with good intonation. I don't get it. Acoustically isn't the Bass Clarinet the same instrument just bigger? At this rate I don't know. According to my intonation problems maybe I am comparing apples to oranges.
It seems that the more I practice on the Clarinet the worse I get in the short run. Logically that doesn't sound right, but thats how its felt. In the long run my fingers have gotten faster/more accurate, my tone has significantly improved over the years, but intonation has remained constant. Again in the short run over time I always redevelop the bad habit of biting, which leads to all sorts of problems. Most annoying are the squeaks that come with biting, especially in the throat tones (or maybe Im voicing too high?). Ironically its when I take a long break (a couple weeks to a couple months) out of frustration that everything seems to gets better in the short run!
Its probably not equipment. Ive tried different reeds and mouthpieces. Ive also used a shorter barrel, but that makes the throat tones and upper Clarion too sharp compared to the longer notes. The only thing left is the horn itself, but with other players it plays in tune with itself so it must be me.
Now Ive tried to play at a softer volume to raise my pitch, but then half the dynamics (mf, f, and ff) are useless! Itd be nice to play in tune in at least a normal volume. Ive tried to lower my horn angle to be more steep/vertical or "classical", but I saw little (if any) difference on the tuner.
Is it even possible to lip up on the Clarinet, and if so how? I can easily lip down 20-30 more cents on any given note, and sound like a dying goose in doing so, but I cant even lip up 7 extra cents.
What causes Clarinet players to play sharp? While that's the opposite problem, itd be nice to know what players on the other side of the pond are doing differently.
After 4 years of perpetual flatness I dont know what to do anymore.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-04-09 12:15
First thing coming to my mind is if you are taking in enough mouthpiece? Are you familiar with the "squak test", and if so, what does it show (gradually taking in more and more mouthpiece while playing a continuous tone, until you get an uncontrollable squak - and then back off just slightly from there, which should be about the ideal amount of intake for you)?
Another thing could be too soft reeds, so have you experimented with slightly harder ones and how did that affect your pitch? Increased flatness from middle clarion and upward would probably also indicate too soft reeds.
A lesson or two with a teacher, preferable in person, would probably serve you best regarding this problem.
Post Edited (2023-04-09 12:15)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-04-09 16:04
I'm sorry you're having such a struggle, that sounds very frustrating.
How are you measuring the degree of flatness?
Is it by your own ear, or do other people comment, or did you check with a tuner.
Also when others try your horn and it plays in tune with itself, are you checking by your own ear, other's ears or a tuner?
Also where are you playing when you do these tests? It is in a small room in a house, or in a big church or hall, or somewhere else?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2023-04-09 16:12
It would be helpful to know the brand and model of clarinet, mouthpiece and reed. Some instruments have known problems and some combinations of reed/mouthpiece/ instrument are more likely than others to have intonation problems.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-09 16:13
So I am in the opposite camp. I am quite happy to have the issue of playing lower. It comes for me on two fronts. The first and most important is playing with a relaxed embouchure. Even with that thought it is always easier to lip down than lip up. The other issue for me is playing with Legere reeds which don’t vibrate as easily as cane and bring pitch down another degree.
The solution (as long as you have a mature sound) is to use shorter barrels. The average “Buffet” barrel length is 66 millimeters. I have been using 62mm for quite a while. Recently I have been playing on German mouthpieces and find I will have to move down to 60mm barrels (for R13 style clarinets…..50mm for Yamaha CSG).
Yes, it can be hard to find short barrels (lot of Chinese options on EBay for cheap money). However, Jonathan Copeland of Copeland clarinets can make any size barrel (he is in partnership with Wesley Rice) in either wood or hard rubber. And they are great!
Don’t tear yourself up biting! Use shorter barrels.
………..Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-04-09 17:43
Klarnt wrote:
You've left a lot of information out that would be needed to make even an educated guess at the cause of your flatness.
> About 4 years ago I started to notice that I played on the flat
> side. ...
So, were you a beginner 4 years ago or had you been playing for some time before and noticed a change in your intonation?
> From what
> Ive read the common culprits for most (usually beginner)
> players are unfocused tone, poor embouchure/loose corners,
> incorrect voicing.
>
Of the three causes you mention, do you suspect any of them are involved in your problem? You don't actually say.
> Maybe Im only able to play on the Bass Clarinet, because at
> least on that thing I can play with good intonation.
How much longer have you played bass clarinet than soprano (Bb) clarinet?
> I don't
> get it. Acoustically isn't the Bass Clarinet the same
> instrument just bigger?
Depends on whom you ask, but for most players the two need very different approaches. The physical proportions are very different from the reed and mouthpiece all the way down.
> It seems that the more I practice on the Clarinet the worse I
> get in the short run. Logically that doesn't sound right, but
> thats how its felt.
That's to be expected when the practicing doesn't get you to your goal successfully. The practicing needs to be purposeful.
> Most annoying are the
> squeaks that come with biting, especially in the throat tones
> (or maybe Im voicing too high?). Ironically its when I take a
> long break (a couple weeks to a couple months) out of
> frustration that everything seems to gets better in the short
> run!
>
Sometimes when you overthink a problem ("voicing") or overexert ("biting") in trying to solve it, you add new ones instead of solving the original one. It's possible you need to re-think your embouchure, not biting up more against the reed (if that's what you're trying to do), but trying more to apply controlled muscular pressure around the reed, not clamping pressure underneath it. And blow with your "throat" and tongue in a more natural, relaxed position instead of trying to "voice" throat notes.
> Its probably not equipment. Ive tried different reeds and
> mouthpieces. Ive also used a shorter barrel, but that makes the
> throat tones and upper Clarion too sharp compared to the longer
> notes.
So, what clarinet is it, exactly? And how sharp are the throat notes and the upper clarion notes (and exactly which ones) with a shorter barrel? Depending on how sharp they are, throat notes can be adjusted downward and upper clarion can be corrected or improved with a well-designed barrel bore (that's what Moennig designed his taper to do for the R-13s of his time) plus adjustments inside your mouth.
> The only thing left is the horn itself, but with other
> players it plays in tune with itself so it must be me.
When others play your clarinet (in tune with itself), do they use their own mouthpieces and reeds, or yours (the ones you're using when you play flat)?
And, going back to my first question, when you noticed you were flat 4 years ago, had you been playing before that without the flatness problem? Or is that when you started playing? And had you been playing bass before that and only started playing soprano clarinet 4 years ago? It may be important, or at least useful, to know if you once played in tune on a soprano clarinet before you played flat. And whether you're a convert from bass clarinet or you've developed on both simultaneously.
Just some ideas to think about...
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-04-10 03:12
While it would be difficult to say why exactly someone plays flat, at one point I bought a clarinet that was very flat, across all registers.
Played with very nice tone, but was extremely flat which required cutting the barrel by 2.5mm to bring it up to 440Hz.
The consensus on this board was that the warped bore created the problem.
Another way to check would be to play someone else's instrument and check tuning- if still flat then it's the player.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-04-10 09:56
What pitch is produced when you play on just the barrel and mouthpiece? And yes, please share the details of what reed/mouthpiece/instrument (brand and model) that you are using.
Anders
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2023-04-10 11:19
Thank you all for brainstorming. Overall it seems that I need to take another look at some avenues that I may of needed to explore a bit further.
I am familiar with the "squak test", and while I thought I took enough mouthpiece Ill have to try it again. Yes a few years back I have experimented with harder reeds up to 3.5 on vandoren and legere, but at the time I found that they were too hard for the both volume and tone I wanted to achieve. Though now that you mention it, "Increased flatness from middle clarion and upward would probably also indicate too soft reeds", I might have to try harder reeds again! That would certainly explain why the clarion E, F, F#, and A are flat while the extremities of the clarion tend to be sharp.
I always use a tuner because I dont trust my ears, "in tune" sounds sharp to me. Using A = 440, I tend to be about 7 - 14 cents flat (after warmup) depending on the note of course. My flattest note is usually chalumeau C. I usually practice in my room, but when tuning outside (not summer) Im still flat while my peers are sharp.
My current setup is a Jupiter 700, Vandoren Size 3 reeds, and a Vandoren CL5 Serie 13. I know that Jupiter is just a student/intermediate model, but for what its worth its fairly decent.
Ive been hesitant to use the shorter barrel. I do have two other barrels made by Muncy, 62mm and 63mm. While my tone has improved significantly with my daily long tones warm ups, I still want a fatter more colorful or jazzy sound first. Interesting to hear that synthetic reeds bring down the pitch. I have tried several legere reeds and observed that too, but whenever I brought it up with other players they instantly shot it down.
Apologies for my gaps of information, Ill try to be more thorough about my situation. About 4 years ago is when I started to play the Bass Clarinet. Before then I had only played the Clarinet for 5 years. I used to be severely flat on the Bass Clarinet, and tuning was all over the place, but after a while I finally got tuning under control and uniform among most notes on the instrument.
I suspect maybe its my tone and embouchure? My tone is blindingly bright, and while I get complimented for the colorful and projecting tone, I have also been constructively criticized for my tendency to overblow the throat tones. The Clarinet embouchure never feels quite right. The whole instrument is so tiny, but judging by Micke Isotalo's point I might need to take in more mouthpiece.
I have played the Bass for half the time of the soprano. I spent 1 + 7 years on the soprano, with about 1 + 3 years on the Bass. The three years I played on Bass was along side with the soprano. Then I took a year-long hiatus on the Bass Clarinet, got back to it, and played on that horn better than ever before. In many ways the Bass Clarinet is a very particular and unforgiving instrument, but its a lot more comfortable to play when sitting down!
You're right I do need to rethink things. I think I'm quite relaxed on the Bass Clarinet as I just play it and let it roll.
The last time I played on the shorter barrels was three years ago, and the difference it made was much more extreme. At the time I used a Vandoren 5JB mouthpiece instead, though I dont know how much of an effect thatd have in conjunction with a barrel. What I do know is that my tuning was less uniform three years ago, as back then my throat A was easily over 20-30 cents sharp (with normal barrel) where as nowadays its more in line with the other notes.
At the end of my practice session today I conducted a test with my three barrels. I measured how many cents sharp(+)/flat(-) was on each note. I did E & A its because I didnt want test every single note on the instrument, and they cover the long/short ends and middle of the tubing. I was shocked by the results:
______| 66mm| 63mm| 62mm|
Alt E | +12 | +07 | +09 |
Clr A | -03 | -00 | +02 |
Clr E | -03 | -00 | +02 |
ThT A | +06 | +11 | +19 |
ThT E | +02 | +07 | +13 |
Low A | +00 | +03 | +07 |
Low E | +07 | +05 | +10 | (how odd)
Look at all of those plus signs! When practicing today I actually managed to play in tune during a sizable bit when pushed all the way in. "Gee, I just ranted about my frustrations about playing flat, and the next day I play in tune!" Its a little embarrassing that todays tuning contradicts just about everything I ranted about up to this point, but long term solutions are still helpful nonetheless. Not sure what I did different today, but I sure would like to find out. Maybe playing along with Buddy DeFranco's calming cover of Autumn Leaves is the secret to raising pitch.
When people play on the horn it is with their own mouthpiece and reeds.
Before I played the Bass Clarinet I used to be consistently sharp on the soprano. I only started to notice that I played flat about a few months after I started to seriously play the Bass Clarinet. At the time I tried to give both instruments equal attention.
Off the top of my head about its around a very sharp Clarinet Ab? Just to be sure tomorrow I'll measure the pitch I produce with the mouthpiece and barrel and get back to you.
Post Edited (2023-04-10 11:22)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-04-10 17:49
"I dont trust my ears, "in tune" sounds sharp to me"
I wonder if there is a way to retrain your brain to avoid this? It would be useful to me too, as I have the opposite problem. I think that "in tune" instruments sound flat when I listen to them. I have worked over the years to try and avoid it, and I know that if I play for too long without checking my pitch center with a tuner or playing with another person to keep me in check, I will end up drifting sharp because I prefer the way my instrument sounds when it is sharp.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-04-10 18:37
Hi Klarnt,
Thank so much for all that detail. It's extremely interesting to understand your situation.
I find it really very interesting to hear that your tuner showed the notes as sharp, when your frustration was with them being flat.
I wondered if that was a one-off, to do with where and how you were playing, or if that means that your perception that the notes are flat is not quite right?
I would be very interested to know what the tuner says when you are in other places that you frequently play in.
(Apologies btw to Paul Aviles for rambling about tuners. I honestly do not use a tuner, except when I am in a shop play testing before buying gear.)
I'd be really interested to know whether your usual playing buddies have checked their tuning with a digital tuner too. It may well be that they are *wildly* sharp, and that you are just a little sharp, and that that is what makes you feel you are playing flat.
It's just a thought, but perhaps worth a check.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-04-10 19:09
1. Usually, student level clarinets will not have the best tone and tuning.
Yes, there are exceptions where a particular clarinet will play better than other clarinets of the same model/brand, but still it would not be at the level of professional instruments.
2. Throat notes are relatively easy to adjust pitch-wise.
3. I play a Buffet RC Prestige and my intonation on it is not perfect. I've heard from a very knowledgeable musician/tech that there is no perfect instrument, even the most expensive ones will have some tuning problems.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-04-10 20:00
The majority of pitch control comes from the shape and volume of the inside of the mouth (tongue shape and placement and airstream speed and direction), not embouchure or bite pressure. Just listen to any blues harmonica player. They bend without embouchure. Woodwinds work the same. So your fundamental issue is inside your mouth. Since you haven’t been able to fix it by trial and error, only expert one on one instruction can.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-04-10 20:50
SunnyDaze wrote:
> (Apologies btw to Paul Aviles for rambling about tuners. I
> honestly do not use a tuner, except when I am in a shop play
> testing before buying gear.)
>
I don't see a message from you that rambles particularly about tuners. Am I missing one?
Is there a reason why you don't use a tuner for occasionally checking your pitch during regular practice?
Karl
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Author: Jacob R
Date: 2023-04-10 21:01
The information that I need to evaluate the problem is your Clarinet set up.So,what instrument brand are you using?What mouthpiece are you using?And what reed strength and brand are you using?These things can help tremendously if you have "good" ones.My advice to you though is to be hooked to a tuner or have a tuner on standby at 440hz and just play a bit.Just keeping an eye on the tuner can build the habit of fixing the intonation on the instrument.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-10 23:40
To SunnyDaze and kdk,
HA Ha HA Ha HAAAA! Ok, my comment regarding tuners to SunnyDaze is in regards to a tone that has not yet been developed. One way I was thinking recently to describe generating a solid sound regarding the embouchure is that the best vibrating characteristics of the reed reside within the top !0% of the embouchure's flexibility within a given air flow at a given dynamic (harder to explain that to show). If you obsess about one or two cents either way on the tuner BEFORE you even get the right embouchure to air combination right, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. I was assuming that Klarnt was a bit further along.
My feeling (another wild guess...but with the tuner information) is that there IS A LOT of biting going on. As stated above it is much easier to move the pitch upward in the throat notes. I would work on the throat notes first and foremost. Get those sounding solid (the tone, timbre you want), with good pitch and a comfortable embouchure (why move up reed strength if you can get the SOUND you want with a softer reed????). Once the throat notes are good......you can then start working your way up and down the horn.
As for ME and pitch, I'll work the tuner on SOUND, intoning the tonic while playing scales and the Kroepsch books one and two scale-like exercises (basically cadences). Why not? When we play in our ensembles we are not playing against a flashing red or green light.
I do check the altissimo with the meter every now and then during this portion of practice. But I do mostly avoid the tuner for exercises and solos........all those kinks should have been worked out in the initial portion. Then I do that again the next day, and the next, and the next........
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2023-04-11 05:10)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-04-11 00:11
Hi kdk,
Sorry, yes, that was just me acknowledging to Paul that I'm not suggesting someone be wedded to the tuner.
Paul is giving me a ton of help over email to improve my technique, and has suggested that I shouldn't use a tuner until I get my playing to a much more mature state, and I totally get that.
I wouldn't want to use a tuner anyway though, because I feel very confident on pitch from years spent singing in choirs. It's everything else that needs a ton of work.
I do always check with a tuner when I buy gear, because when I'm in a shop testing something, the environment is so different. In that case I'm also not playing with a tuned piano or a recorded accompaniment that could give me a clear steer if something is off.
I think that having an accompaniment that is definitely in tune is a really such a huge help for judging what's going on. Especially if I want to be tuner-free to feel my way with voicing and embouchure and all that.
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2023-04-11 01:46
My current setup is a Jupiter 700, Vandoren Size 3 reeds, and a Vandoren M15 (CL5 Serie 13).
Today I tested two slightly different setups and made sure not to look at the tuner so that I wouldnt be tempted to lip up. With the Vandoren mouthpieces and barrel I got these results.
M15: Ab ~20 cents sharp
5JB: Ab ~30 cents sharp
Over all when playing with the whole instrument I noticed that the 5JB played in tune (or less flat) when playing. It also felt like trying to blow a rock out of a hose but thats to be expected when it requires soft reeds. Unfortunately I dont like the sound and feel of that mouthpiece. When I went back on the M15 the reed felt shockingly soft! Amazing what a difference a mouthpiece can make. Today I did a quick search and apparently theres a chart with the recommended reed strength for each Vandoren mouthpiece and the M15 prefers size 3.5 - 5 traditional reeds. This whole time I was using too soft of reeds according to this chart.
https://vandoren.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Bb-clarinet-Traditional-mouthpieces.pdf
And yesterday was definitely a one off thing because today I was back to my usual 10 cents flat on the M15.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-04-11 10:29
Hi Klarnt,
Thanks for telling us about that. I'm also an adult learner (5 years), and I can't play anything harder than a 1.5 reed, and I'm on a 0.95 tip mp (I have the lung power of a woodmouse).
My instrument is in tune across the full range with a short barrel.
It's really interesting that you find soft reeds harder to blow. I'm now pretty thoroughly confused.
Maybe someone else knows?
Jennifer
(Yamaha Custom CX, Fobes 10k CF, Vandoren classic 1.5)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-04-11 17:24
Jennifer, as I understood, Klarnt used his 3.0 reed also on the 5JB - which has an extremely large tip opening of 1.47mm (and Vandoren recommends Traditional reeds of 1½-2 to it). So, not surprising if a 3.0 reed felt as a floorboard on that mouthpiece - and also that after this experience the same reed on a M15 felt super soft.
Another thing Jennifer, concerning what you tell about your weak lung power: Are you using your diaphragm (or abdominal muscles, as some prefer to say) when blowing? A simple test is to put your hand gently on the upper part of your stomach. Then watch it while breathing in and out. You should easily see an inward/outward movement of at least a few cm, which indicates that your diaphragm is actually engaged in your breathing process. Make sure then that you inhale and exhale exactly the same way also when playing.
Post Edited (2023-04-11 19:53)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-04-11 19:49
Klarnt, may I suggest that you give 3.5 reeds at least a few weeks trial? As you get used to them, you may very well not wan't to return to your former 3.0 reeds (both tonally and pitch wise).
If you decide to settle on those 3.5 reeds, after maybe a couple of months you could even give 4.0 reeds a similar trial. Regarding the recommended interval of 3½-5 by Vandoren for your M15 mouthpiece, you would still be on "the soft side" with 4.0 reeds. However, I believe that at least at this latter reed strength, your problem with "perpetual flatness" would be gone.
If you for whatever reason still want to stay with softer reeds, the "non-13" M15 mouthpiece would probably help to rise your overall pitch (the 13 series is made for an A=440 level, while the "non-13" series is for a 442 level). If it still isn't enough, you could consider shorter than standard barrels, and perhaps some customized tuning work on your clarinet (especially for the throat tones).
As a former biter myself, I'm definitely not advocating reeds harder than "necessary" (mainly tonally). Still I believe that a 3.5-4.0 recommendation for a M15 mouthpiece is a most moderate one. It would probably also allow your clarinet to work tuning wise as it is intended to do.
By the way, concerning your Jupiter 700 clarinet, though I'm not familiar with that particular model, I know that at least earlier beginner level Jupiter clarinets were tuned higher than normal. That way beginners could avoid playing flat in an ensemble. If that's true also about your clarinet, it could actually be helpful for you in case you decide to stay with softer than usual reeds.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-04-11 19:55
Hi Micke,
Thank for explaining about the 5JB. I had no idea it was so open, or that a mp could be that open. I just reread Klart's post and I understand it now.
Thanks also for the explanation of diaphragm breathing. I actually started the clarinet partly because I was not physically able to breathe with my diaphragm, and was a habitual chest-breather, which was causing health problems. I'd had physio and exercises for 20-odd years which hadn't helped, so decided to ask a musician to help me instead of a medic.
I'm happy to say that it worked and I am now a habitual diaphragm breather, which is pretty amazing. I think it might still take me a while to get past a 1.5 reed though. I just look on in wonder when people say they can play a 3 or a 5.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-04-11 20:24)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2023-04-13 14:13
Klarnt wrote:
> My current setup is a Jupiter 700, Vandoren Size 3 reeds,
> and a Vandoren M15 (CL5 Serie 13).
What is it: a M15 or a CL5? I thought these are two different mouthpieces.
Anyway, you could better use the standard version and not the Serie 13 version which can give intonation problems (too low throat register).
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