 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-08 16:45
Oh cool, I'm ALWAYS on the look out for a way to soup up my clarinet, now all I need is a gold coloured sharpie pen...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-08 17:38
Ok...........here goes:
There is a difference (slight and annoying to some of you to ponder) between silver and gold in ligatures due to the gold affecting HOW the reed vibrates. It is not simply that it may slightly dampen the upper partials, but it also seems to give a bit more support to the over all resonance.
VERY SLIGHTLY
So what would this do to the vent? It MIGHT have some effect on the immediacy and effectiveness of how the clarion notes speak. Some folks have an issue with the "grunt" of the Bb (sitting on the first ledger line above the staff). One prevalent "fix" is to use a pad that has a "spike" that protrudes into the vent hole itself (one can easily see how altering the air flow would have an effect on this process). Perhaps (PERHAPS....just a wild guess) the tamping effect on vibrations of that key may "alter" the feel (one way or the other) of the response for clarion notes.
JUST A GUESS.........NO ENDORSEMENT OR PROCLAMATION INTENDED
Then there is the video's reason #1: The "Bling Effect"
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2023-04-08 19:16
My guess is that it marginally improves the instrument’s financial performance for the manufacturer….
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-04-08 20:57
It's already difficult enough to see how applying a layer of gold or silver with a thickness of less than a micron to a metal ligature will affect the vibration of a reed. And even harder to see how this thin layer applied to a register key would have any affect on the air column.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-08 21:28
One more relevant note:
Yes, plating is typically only 2 or 3 microns thick. This is the case with the Yamaha CSG horns. However, those who have tried both the silver plated key version and the Hamilton plated key version say there is a noticeable difference.
In the case of the above query it is NOT the company (Selmer) who benefits financially but rather the reseller who made the modifications. Also it is only one key, but it brings up an interesting question. Does the plating on a key close to the point of origin of the wave form make most of the difference on a horn plated differently? If so, that would save money for those who perceive a difference and want that modification solely based on sound.
…………..Paul Aviles
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-04-08 21:52
Quote:
However, those who have tried both the silver plated key version and the Hamilton plated key version say there is a noticeable difference.
But there are differences between different models of the same clarinet. That's why professionals insist on trying out as many as possible to find the one that plays the best.
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-04-08 23:50
Shame on you, Donald, for daring to have a sense of humor!
On the other hand, I'm thinking seriously about getting my silver fillings in my teeth redone in gold...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-04-09 00:06
lmliberson,
Would that change the taste of your food to light or dark? Or possibly the timbre of your voice could be darker and if you were a tenor before, you might end up as a contrabass or countertenor?
HRL
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-04-09 00:17
A tricky one to answer, Hank.
I suppose that a preponderance of gold in my mouth might draw me to crave richer foods.
Or, perhaps, with that in mind, it would force me to only eat salads to compensate for all that “installed” richness?
As for my voice? Well, why do you think I play the clarinet?
So I don’t have to talk, of course!
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-09 02:28
I've used a black sharpie pen on a couple of ligatures already, and on the rings of my R13 A clarinet, and in each case it "apparently" improved the tone (when the listener THOUGHT it was some new swanky plating). I've run out of people to try this trick on now, so unfortunately can't check out the GOLD sharpie pen.
Kilo- the funny thing is, I passed over a really awesome Bb clarinet, and a few years later an A clarinet, because they had nickel keys, and I didn't like nickel keys. Now I'm a grown up, I am kicking myself for such stupidity- and have actually tried quite hard to track down that A clarinet (sold to a film crew tech guy who went to work in Ireland in 2004, can't track him down!!!!)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-04-09 21:04
I think that gold plating the speaker key will definitly improve tone if it's done by the Easter Bunny . ( So hurry !......this is a limited offer ).
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ghoulcaster
Date: 2023-04-10 02:46
I doubt even a solid gold register key would change the tone, though it may bend easier. And you could use it to barter for grain after the apocalypse.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-04-10 12:52
In the acoustic guitar marketing world , there is now a tendency to imply that an instrument made with laminates of a given tone wood will sound with that tone wood's characteristics . This is rubbish, especially seeing as these are wafer thin veneers of tone wood over some other base wood which is always unspecified .
This is misleading and esentialy fraudulent marketing that exploits the benefit of the doubt in people's minds to exploit them as consumers. .....It's a notion as superficial as the veneers themselves .
There are definitely quite a few tailors of "The Emperor's New Clothes " out there that deserved to be tarred and feathered .
It's something which gets my tar pot warmed up at any rate .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-10 16:35
I have tried a little experiment given that I think some sort of "damping" could be involved if there it anything to this.
I encircled the top of the clarinet around the thumb plate end of the register key with my right thumb and forefinger and played a series of loud, tongued triplets (G, A, B, C clarion) up and down with my left hand (clarinet propped up on knee). Result? Nothing really. Maybe a hair's difference.
However
Next I encircled the top end of the register key with thumb and index finger. Then I played in the chalumeau (sixteenths C, D, E, F, G) there was a marked improvement in the depth of the resonance. It brought to mind the justifications for the thicker barrels (such as the Backun Fat Boy). I was quite surprised.
Try it yourself. This is easy, cheap, and replicable.
Now, is a thin coat of plating on ONE key going to do this?
Not sure. But is the Easter Bunny known for executing gold plating????
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-04-10 20:24
Years back I was utterly skeptical about different platings of any kind having audible effects on clarinet gear.
At the time I used the BG's "Super Revelation" ligature, with either a brass, silvered or gold plated metal rail in contact with the reed. Since the brass one was the cheapest, I saw no reason to waste money on the more expensive silver or golden ones, and didn't even bother trying them out. Finally however, I did try those, and to my great surprise I found they indeed sounded different - and the tone of the gold plated one turned out to be the one most in my taste (nowadays however, I'm using mostly string, or "stringlike" ligatures).
Concerning the actual topic, I also find the Buffet Tradition clarinet with unplated posts of interest. When releasing it, Buffet stated that a lot of testplayers had compared both plated an unplated versions, and most of them preferred the unplated ones - on tonal grounds. I haven't made such a comparison myself, so can't either verify or deny - but I can hardly imagine any reason for Buffet to "make up" such a thing, or that leaving those posts unplated in itself would be some kind of booster of sales (also considering the less appealing visual appearance of unplated posts compared to plated ones).
How then about a gold plated speaker key? Contrary to years back, I would no longer just rule out a possible audible effect. However, before rushing into a purchase I would insist on making a comparison of the same instrument, with both a regular and a gold plated key. I would record the entire chromatic scale on each, and then make my comparison from a playback of just three notes at a time on each, in instant succession (yes, my tonal memory is that short). Then, maybe a purchase - or not.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-04-10 22:35
Nice one Paul,
Now that IS the sort of interesting physics experiment that leads to genuine improvements in speaker key design .
Either the damping effect of your finger on the key improves chalumau tones.....or else your fingers have a high gold content . Ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-14 06:31
"Speaker key" and "Register key" are the same thing. Just don't, for the love of god, call it an "octave key".
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-04-14 08:19
>> However, here's a picture of "lesser known?" clarinets which actually have a "separate" speaker key <<
In the page you linked to it's not a separate speaker key. It's the register key and it's just called the speaker key, the same as this thread (unless there is an obscure section there without a photo that explains about the separate speaker key, I haven't read that whole page, but the speaker key marked in all the photos is the register key).
>> I encircled the top end of the register key with thumb and index finger. <<
Let's say that wrapping/damping the register key improves something (which is suspect at best but going with it...) it's entirely possible that a key with thicker metal, a specific shape or thicker plating would make a lot more difference than a tiny thin layer of gold plating. Point is this experiment doesn't show anything to do with the gold plated key.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-14 12:27
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to say Dan- the examples you give have a single key that is separating a "register hole" from a "throat Bb hole". Two functions- "getting the upper register to speak" and "being a tone hole"
To distinguish would be pointless, as the standard register key is also fulfilling those two functions (with just one hole)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-14 23:26
Speaker key = register key
Stave = staff
Hemidemisemiquaver = 64th note
Bar = measure
Aubergine = eggplant
Coriander = cilantro
Pavement = sidewalk
Bonnet = hood
Trousers = pants
Crisps = chips
Chips = fries
1st floor = 2nd floor
Primary school = elementary school
Public school = private school
...
Divided by a common language and all that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-15 08:10
it quite clearly IS NOT an octave key so ignore that rubbish.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-15 13:14
A heart of gold produces a better tone than a gold-plated ligature or speaker key.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2023-04-15 20:49)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-15 17:07
I can't remember how long I've been on this messageboard - probably around 20 years or thereabouts now I think of it, but I've always used the term 'speaker key' on here since whenever.
I've even seen some official literature and other cases where it's been called an 8ve key, when it clearly isn't - although that's probably convenient to some to lump sax and oboe 8ve keys all in with the same function as the speaker key on a clarinet as it helps produce the upper 8ve of the instrument. Or more precisely the 8.5ve key on clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-15 20:52
speaker key is British English and register key, American English. Just as the British say, when speaking of bassoons, a crook (not in reference to the person playing the bassoon!) and Americans say bocal.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-15 22:04
Of course "octave key" is inaccurate...but would any of us picture a key other than the register/speaker key if someone were to erroneously use the words "octave key?"
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-16 05:27
In the UK, we use the word 'crook' for both single and double reed instruments, whereas in the US it's 'bocal' for double reeds and 'neck' for single reeds.
Hence basset horns, alto clarinets, bass clarinets and contra-alto/bass clarinets have crooks, as do saxes from two-piece sopranos through to contrabass, as well as oboes d'amore/d'amour (or oboe d'amores/d'amours if you like to do that), cors anglais, bass (baritone) oboes, mini bassoons/tenoroons, bassoons and contrabassoons.
And Heckelphones, lupophones, Sarrusophones, Rothphones and contrabass a anche (is that pluralised as contrabassi a anche?) also have crooks. Not entitely sure why I capitalised Heckelphone, Sarrusophone and Rothphone when I spelt saxes all in lower case.
Flutes (short reach concert, alto and bass flutes) have curved headjoints - no crooks with flutes, although bass and great bass recorders usually have crooks, as do larger shawms and other large (or deep) renaissance or Baroque woodwinds with some from of tubing fitted into the top end of them to make them physically possible to play (Baroque racketts are deep as opposed to being large instruments given their compactness).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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