 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Runhammar
Date: 2023-01-09 15:16
Hello all
A reed question: I have played the clarinet for two years. Still a beginner but enjoy it very much and I have played other instruments before so I know and read music. I play some jazz standards along with friends on bass and guitar.
Now, I am still playing with a 1 1/2 strength reed. Every time I feel it's time to upgrade and switch to a thicker one, I struggle for air and the sound gets less projected and very "leaky". As I switch back to the 1 1/2 gage reed I find it a lot easier and can project again and focus on dexterity and articulation.
Yet, sometimes when we play, especially after a couple of hours, I feel the sound is less reliable and I get more squeeks, it's as if the reed does not keep up and gets tired and chokes some notes. Still, If I were to play on a thicker reed now, my band members would think I have deteriorated.
Now, Should I...
1: Keep on playing 1 1/2 until It doesn't work anymore and I can seamlessly switch to a thicker, or...
2: Lock myself in a secluded space and brace up to the thicker reed and just play until I am comfortable with it and can project and articulate well again?
I realize there may be more elements to this, but it would be nice to hear people's thoughts and experiences. By the way; my struggle with air and "leaks" begin already at 2.0 gage.
Thankfully
Runhammar
Per Runhammar
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-01-09 19:40
Something is seriously wrong with your technique if you’re still on 1-1/2 after 2 years. Your embouchure should have gotten strong enough for at least a 2 within the first few months. You need to get some private lessons to get on the right track.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-01-09 20:37
Do you have a private instructor? What does she/he say about this? What mouthpiece (brand and facing) are you using? I don't like the idea put forth above that the strength of a reed is related to advancement. Reed strength does not exist in isolation. It is part of an equation that involves the mouthpiece and HOW you play.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Runhammar
Date: 2023-01-09 21:07
Well, no, I do not have a private instructor. That would have been optimal, but there is no room for that at the moment. This is a self teaching experiment.
I have two mouthpieces: one Vandoren B40 and one Buffet Crampon that came with my BC E11.
Gratefull for more input.
Runhammar
Per Runhammar
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-01-09 22:10
The B40 is a fairly open tip. It is also a little shorter facing which makes reeds play "harder." The strength you are using for reeds right now is not out of line.....for that mouthpiece. You need to play on what plays easiest for you and gets the results that you want. There is nothing arbitrary about reed strength.
Are you using a rotation system of reeds? I'd having at least four reeds in use at one time, switching to the next reed on the next day. Personally I do that with a box of ten (with six or eight being the most usable and therefore the most used). Reeds will only last a month or two depending on how much you play, so you need to start another "batch" in the third week of the current ones (or seven weeks if you are constantly getting two months of use).
Rotation serves to tell you how an individual reed is doing in comparison to it's peers. The new ones tell you how well the old one are holding up.
Also use a decent reed guard. They don't have to be fancy or expensive. The plastic D'Addario ones are pretty good.
https://www.wwbw.com/DAddario-Woodwinds-Reed-Guard-J25653-J25653000002000.wwbw?rNtt=D%27adario%20reed%20guard&index=1
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-01-09 22:41
I'm not equating reed strength with advancement. I'm only saying tissue paper (1-1/2) is appropriate until you develop some semblance of an embouchure and breath control, usually within the first few weeks of learning. After that, whether you play 2-1/2 or 5 doesn't correlate to skill.
Show me a pro who plays a 1-1/2 on a closed tip with a good tone at all dynamics through the entire range of the horn, and I'll take it all back.
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Author: Runhammar
Date: 2023-01-09 22:54
Right, Lydian, your point has been made.
If there is anyone else with some insight as how to consider my way forward I am all ears.
And, again, I do understand that the proper way of course is to invest oneself fully and get proper training. But I am a 50 year old familly man with plenty to keep me busy, and broke, who has discovered this thing a bit on the side and just wants to make the best of it.
Kind regards
Per Runhammar
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-01-09 23:14
Hi Per,
I'm a 47 year old adult learner, and I also can't play anything stronger than a 1.5.
I do wonder if it might just be harder to get a strong embouchure when we are starting at an older age like this.
Have you tried keeping several reeds ticking over at the same time, as Paul suggests, and just switching over half way through your long playing sessions?
It might also help to have a closer tipped mouthpiece. I switched recently from Hite D 1.04 opening to a 0.96 Fobes CF 10k and that helped me a lot. It also cost a lot, but I tried the cheaper Fobes Debut and didn't find it helped me, even though it has quite a closed tip.
Jen
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-01-10 03:14
Runhammar wrote:
> I have two mouthpieces: one Vandoren B40 and one Buffet Crampon
> that came with my BC E11.
>
As Paul suggests, the B40 will take, maybe even need, a soft reed. are you trying to play the #2 reeds on that or have you tried them on the Buffet mouthpiece that came with the clarinet.
There could be a few issues involved besides your embouchure.
1. The mouthpiece
2. The brand reed you're using
3. The condition of your instrument - how well does it seal?
4. Your concept of what a clarinet should sound like
You've already gotten some discussion about mouthpieces. They're all different.
A #1.5 Vandoren Traditional isn't the same hardness as a RICO #1.5. Some reeds are cut for elementary level students and emphasize ease of tone production. Other brands are designed to produce a more robust sound. I've never had even my beginner students play on #1.5, so I don't know how different manufacturers' bottom strength reeds compare, but my beginners were always more successful at the start with #2 or even #2.5 Ricos or Luries than with Vandorens or any of the designer reeds on the market.
Any clarinet, even a brand new one just off the shelf, may have leaky pads. Enough leaks can make any reed/mouthpiece combo feel stuffy and hard to control.
It's hard to know what you mean that the sound "gets less projected and very 'leaky'." It may be that you expect the sound that you've been getting with the 1.5s and just aren't comfortable accepting the sound of a harder reed. To deal with needing more air try, using the #2, taking a little less mouthpiece in your mouth. It isn't so important where the edge of your lower lip is, it's where the pressure from your teeth is applied against the reed through the lip that's important.
Since you aren't in a position to hire a private teacher (even for a single evaluation session?), a friend who plays clarinet could be a great help. He or she could at the very least try your mouthpieces, reeds and clarinet. You also might try a basic leak test yourself or have the friend do it if he knows how. For each section, close all the holes with your fingers and one end with the palm of your hand, put the open end against your mouth and suck the air out. If you can't get a vacuum, there's a leak, possibly a major one, or a lot of little ones. You can also blow moderately instead of sucking to see if you can hear air hissing out somewhere specific.
Karl
Post Edited (2023-01-10 06:58)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-01-10 09:37
I agree with all that you must dump the 1.5 reeds. I started my beginners (6th grade) on Rico 2s. I've used Vandoren 2.5s now since about 1974. Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece. I once had the air leak problem-- was mental.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-01-10 17:17
Hi Tom and Karl,
Does that mean that Rico #2 is kind of "easier" for a learner to play than a Vandoren classic #1.5? I had no idea about that.
That sounds like a really important thing to know.
Per: I also have run up against the leaky clarinet problem and it totally destroys my playing without my even realising it's happened. That's definitely a thing that's worth looking very hard at.
Jen
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-01-10 17:54
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Hi Tom and Karl,
>
> Does that mean that Rico #2 is kind of "easier" for a learner
> to play than a Vandoren classic #1.5? I had no idea about that.
>
Too soft a reed can cause bad habits to form right from the start. You can get away with almost anything and still get a full sound in the chalumeau on a very soft reed. My beginning students were almost always playing on the mouthpieces that came with rental instruments. So, there was never any mystery about what kind of facing they were using. I always started them with #2 Ricos and moved them to #2.5 fairly soon during the first year. I found it much easier to get them into the clarion successfully with the slight bump to #2.5, not because it isn't possible to play clarion with a soft setup, but because the bad habits that can form in the lower register make altissimo hard to impossible.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-01-10 22:38
There is also the issue of quality to the cane and cut (similar to the difference between a cheap clarinet and one that was built properly). I always found the Lurie reeds to produce a thin, lifeless sound. The Ricos were not much better, but at the time I played them they had a model called the Rico Royal which was ok. Once I tried the Vandorens I never played anything else. I think it's worth the price difference and the inconvenience of perhaps not getting the exact strength you want to use a cane reed that, for lack of a better term, works.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-01-11 01:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> There is also the issue of quality to the cane and cut (similar
> to the difference between a cheap clarinet and one that was
> built properly). I always found the Lurie reeds to produce a
> thin, lifeless sound. The Ricos were not much better, but at
> the time I played them they had a model called the Rico Royal
> which was ok. Once I tried the Vandorens I never played
> anything else. I think it's worth the price difference and the
> inconvenience of perhaps not getting the exact strength you
> want to use a cane reed that, for lack of a better term, works.
I agree with you in the abstract. But the problem with beginners' using Vandorens is that, whether the it's the cane itself or the profile, my beginners always had a harder time getting them to vibrate and fewer from the box played easily. You would never have encouraged a student to go to the local guitar outlet that sold reeds and buy one or two Vandorens of any strength. They were just too variable. If Mom bought two Ricos, #2 or #2.5, there was a decent chance one would play easily and the other acceptably.
I think it was a similar principle to the one offered by Vandoren's Juno reeds. They're cut to vibrate more easily, at some sacrifice of tone quality and reed longevity. There's not as much wood in them. Who knows if the quality of the cane is the same.
I also think that a student who has reached the point of realizing that a reed brand consistently produces a "thin, lifeless sound" is at a point where moving to something that sounds better despite a higher price point makes perfect sense.
Karl
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Author: Runhammar
Date: 2023-01-11 19:55
Ok, My conclusions are this: I am playing at the wrong strength. I am obviously correcting in some way for the week reed and this may be developing into bad habits. I should start playing on harder reeds, one increment at a time, and work on embouchure to bring them up to the same "level" as I now play the 1,5. I will get both Rico's and Vandorens and keep a batch going, as suggested.
Will also look into finding a private instructor. I do have a contact here in Stockholm/Sweden and might try to get hold of him again.
A development of this issue: when I practice in the evenings (I live in an apartment), I do not want to give full blow and disturb my neighbors (although they are being very kind about it, and during daytime I do make plenty of noise) and I wanted to know about tecniques for more quiet practice. Mutes aside ( I am looking into them as well). I find playing in the low register and, again, with a thin reed is the only way I can play quietly. Does anyone have any tips and tecniques for playing quietly in higher register and with thicker reeds? Perhaps that comes with better tone control and practice....
Thanks for all advice regarding reeds. I now know where I must go...
Per Runhammar
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2023-01-12 01:07
Hello Per. I'm an older amateur like you, so not at the same level as some of the other posters, but I can offer some advice based on what has helped me.
Reeds are more resistant if they are not well balanced side-to-side, and most reeds in a box are not that well balanced. You may find that 2.0 reeds are not so tiring to play if you correct their balance.
There are online videos about this that are easy to search for. If you're not doing it already, just perform the following simple test- while playing an open G, rotate the instrument clockwise and counterclockwise in your mouth. The G should speak equally easily both ways. If it doesn't, remove just a little cane with fine sandpaper from the stiff side. I do that roughly 1 cm back from the tip, but you can get more detailed guidance from the videos.
Regards,
Ken
Post Edited (2023-01-12 05:08)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2023-01-12 07:21
Runhammar stated: "Does anyone have any tips and techniques for playing quietly in higher register and with thicker reeds?"
Back in the day when I was still playing, I used the following technique:
After forming your embouchure and setting your fingers for the note that you want to play, start blowing softly into the mouthpiece. You should only hear a hissing sound. Now, start increasing the pressure on your bottom lip to push the reed closer to the facing. As you keep pushing harder, a point is going to be reached where the hissing sound will turn into a low level tone output. With your B40 which has a 1.195mm tip opening, you'll have a fairly large distance to move the reed because I suspect the reed probably won't start vibrating until it's somewhere around 1mm or even less.
Anyway, this worked well for me. I'm confident it'll work as equally well for you.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2023-01-12 11:09
I used to play the B40 with a Vandoren Tradition (Blue Box) #3 and it took some effort. A 2.5 would be possible, but even for this mouthpiece a 1.5 is probably too soft to get good results. A closer, medium facing (eg, 5RV or 5RV Lyre or similar) would probably be a better choice.
Since then Vandoren has released the Juno reed which I tried on Alto Sax with a #3 reed on a Fobes Debut mouthpiece. It worked great. This reed has a much more flexible and forgiving design and may be a good choice for getting good results. I would try a 2-2.5 on something like a Fobes Debut to start. Pilgerstorfer Dolce (my favorite) and Behn Aria reeds are also more responsive and forgiving (as well as 1/2 strength softer) than other reeds so they might be worth a try.
I find that good tone and good technique are more dependent on a strong, focused air stream than a stiff(er) reed. I would advocate using the softest reed that yields the tone and performance you want. Long tones and slow scales/intervals help build an embouchure sufficient to allow the reed/mouthpiece combination to produce the desired results.
Finally, it is important to have a good idea of how you want to sound and play. Emulation is a great way to improve. A good teacher can help to make the right choices and correct problems.
Hopefully the suggestions offered on this thread will help you improve and achieve your goals.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-01-12 11:52
Runhammar,
All the advice above is great advice.
I, too, love to play early 1900s jazz (or vintage pop tunes).
I have two thoughts:
1. Try a #2 reed for a week or two of daily play and then look back and evaluate how it worked for you (maybe switch back to a 1 1/2 after the first couple weeks to see if it "now" feels too soft). This would be the easiest thing to try, and avoids changing too many things too quickly.
2. Realize that most of the advice offered here on the bboard is well-intentioned and quality advice - but it will most likely come from a perspective of classical education for classical music. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - but it doesn't necessarily always fit the mindset/style/technique used in jazz or other styles.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-01-12 14:13
Runhammar,
I'm also in Sweden. Here, as well as in most other European countries, the tip opening of the B40 is considered "medium" - while in the US it's considered wide (or even ultra wide  ). Here the B40 is also by far the most popular of all kinds of mouthpieces (ask any vendor).
When I still had pupils, they started on a Vandoren Traditional 1.5 reed on a B40 (or in some cases a Rico Royal #2.0, which matches a Traditional #1.5). I never hastened moving up in strength, and usually waited until the altissimo notes (above ![[C6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c6.gif) ) - to get those easier and for tuning reasons.
I'm not aware of what bad habits this could have led to, but on the other hand, they gained a more relaxed playing experience for longer and definitely didn't risk developing such bad habits as biting. Often other teachers also commented on the nice tone of my pupils.
I don't have a B40 (only the bass equivalent), but just before writing this I tried an old Selmer C85 120 with at least a similar tip opening as on the B40. As a classical and experienced player a Legere European #3.0 was too soft, a #3.25 was comfortable, and a #3.5 a tad stiff for me (the Europeans matches the average strength of Vandoren Traditionals quite well, at least around the #3 mark). An experienced jazz player may well prefer a 0.5-1.0 number softer.
I agree fully with Fuzzy about giving a .5 harder reed a try for a few weeks, and after that comparing how your previous softer reeds feel.
At least in the long run, with your embouchure fully developed, I would recommend you to allow yourself some variety in reed strength. In my practice reed (cane) rotation I keep reeds at least .5 both softer and harder than my "optimal" strength. Besides maintaining some flexibility in my embouchure that way, sometimes I just feel for a more relaxed playing experience and thus choose a softer reed - and to make less noise for my neighbours at a late hour, I would also choose a softer reed. In ensemble settings, I often choose a softer reed for a smaller ensemble compared to a larger one.
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Author: manuel78
Date: 2023-01-16 21:45
You are indeed playing with a very soft reed, youn should check your techniche, as well as your mouthpiece not being that open.
What worked for some of my students is to use brands that have intermediate strengths, like Gonzalez Reeds, so the gap is not that big. I play the GD ones and I know they come in quarter strengths.
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Author: philmooremusic
Date: 2023-01-16 23:14
Benny Goodman played on a 1.5 reed and sounds great. Find a reed a size that you like the sound of. Done. A friend of mine used a 2.0 soprano sax reed for about a year. He sounded amazing.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-01-18 05:59
According to those who knew him, he did not play 1.5. They would have made his range impossible to play.
Post Edited (2023-01-18 22:39)
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Author: Runhammar
Date: 2023-01-18 21:50
Thanks everyone for the good and solid advice, including tips on how to play more quiet. I have now fired up a batch of 2,5s and 2,0s which I have been playing for a few days and I will keep at it with these to evaluate after some time. It already feels like I have some more "muscle" to play around with tones with these reeds. Stiall keep the 1,5 at had for quiet evening practice...
Per
Per Runhammar
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