 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Klarnt
Date: 2022-08-30 20:08
1. Why does the Clarinet require such a high voicing and/or tongue position? I know it's needed for tuning, tone, and notes speaking... but what is the fundamental, acoustical, and/or scientific cause for needing such a high air speed?
2. Why don't other instruments need such a high tongue position?
3. Are there other brass/woodwind instruments that require such a high tongue position, or is it exclusive to the Clarinet family?
4. Hypothetically (NOT ADVOCATING THIS - JUST CURIOUS), could the Clarinet's design be changed to be more responsive, in-tune, and possibly in-tone with a lower/less-high voicing? Is the instrument's design a significant reason behind the Clarinet's need for such a high voicing?
5. How does voicing differ on the Alto, Bass, and Contra Clarinets? How is voicing on those instruments similar to the Soprano?
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-08-30 20:44
It makes the airflow much faster and less turbulent as it enters the mouthpiece which I guess helps the higher partials come out.
One thing I have done to experience this, is try (or pretend) to blow out a candle with your mouth all the way open (no clarinet of course). If you tongue is in the right spot there will be a narrow high speed stream of air coming out of your mouth just like if you had your lips together like you were whistling.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-30 20:53
The concept of "voicing" as far as I can discern is based on changing the VOLUME of the air in your oral cavity to affect the air speed (more volume = slower air, or less air pressure; less volume = greater air speed or more air pressure). Personally I modulate air speed at my mid-section (all interaction between abdominal muscles and the diaphragm used in opposition).
Further I would suggest that ALL wind players must use the appropriate amount of air pressure for any given note, register, volume, OR the sound will be thin, weak, uncentered and/or lacking in the appropriate overtones.
And yes, the bass clarinet requires a bit more effort.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2022-08-30 23:01
Different take - more intuition than fact on my part.
The vibrations happen on both sides of the reed. The mouth cavity helps/hurts the current vibration. The tongue making a small cavity in the mouth helps the small part of the vibration going on inside the clarinet bore for high pitches.
High frequencies need more energy (air speed) than low frequencies.
Test it this way;
Play low E softly with low energy (speed) air and press the register key and B will not play.
The 2nd register needs more energy to work. The B is not strong enough in the overtone series of the low E.
Play low E softly with high energy (speed) air, The E sounds more ‘clarinetish’ because B is present in in the overtone series. Press the register key and the B sounds.
Similarly, the 3rd and above registers need even more energy.
Playing all registers with the same high energy (air speed) helps playing each register without having to change other elements, for instance biting for high notes.
Playing the full range on the clarinet’s four plus range can be played on the softest reeds with fast air, and only changing the mouth cavity size (voicing).
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-09-01 08:51
1,2,3:
Saxophone, flute, clarinet, and recorder all require different voicing. They also require you to change voicing depending on what range you are in.
The air in your head (not just mouth) is either part of the resonating body, or acts on the air resonating in the instrument. So it's necessary that good voicing is required for good tone.
It seems to me that the placement of the soft palate is more important than tongue position. I find that once I nail the soft palate and throat I sound good. The tongue doesn't get it there, especially on high notes. I can do different things with my tongue and still get a good result, but if the palate and throat are off I won't sound good at all.
The speed of the air (IMO) is not as important as the shape/direction of the air or other factors. Watch some videos on flute playing that discuss this. Clarinet will be different, but similar things are going on. It's not just the amount space you send the air through, but the shape. Flutists are just more aware of it because it's extremely important for them.
The main thing is that you have to experiment with the instrument. Directions like "keeping the tongue high" are helpful for students, but ultimately you have to experiment, listen, and feel what works and what doesn't. What you are really doing is figuring out how to get the most resonance, and how to bring out certain overtones for the best effect.
4:
You could design a clarinet that required a somewhat different voicing, but the voicing is determined by the instrument and your own physiology. It would just be different.
It seems to me that the more uniform an instrument is to play, the more bland it sounds. I'm not talking about real defects like poor design or leaks, but the inherent qualities of the instrument. The things that give it more "character" or "personality" can also make it somewhat more demanding to control.
It's like the difference between a Steinway or Boesendorfer, and a Yamaha piano. Yamahas are very uniform (good for jazz), but they don't have the same character as a Boesendorfer.
Comparison: https://youtu.be/LvekkZnE8BU?t=100
Comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2GYYV8JSqM
Andras Schiff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr5Dbe2ASyw
Schiff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05CHQltxifo
Listen to Wezel Fuchs. He plays a German system, which has a bit different character than the French clarinets you may be used to. German clarinets are more uniform over the scale than French ones. Certain notes don't "stick out" as much. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFlC5u8ESMk
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2022-09-01 09:23)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-02 19:07
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> A previous thread also discussing tongue position/voicing had
> references to x-ray and similar studies, showing that the
> tongue is actually lowered and not raised when ascending a
> scale. It included the following two links, one about a study
> in 1973 (originally posted by Tony Pay) and the other one in
> 2017:
>
As I remember without going back to re-read that older thread - maybe later - one point, based on those imaging studies, was that we often misunderstand/misinterpret what we're actually doing when we play. What we think we're doing is sometimes not really what's going on. "Throat" position is one, tongue position is another instance of discrepancies between what we claim good players "must" do and what they actually do when playing.
We verbalize what we *feel* and then so often leap to assuming that what we "feel" must take place to produce good playing. Moreover, when we get actual evidence of the real activity that's involved in good playing, it turns out we really don't know how, or are even anatomically unable, to control it directly.
What, specifically is a "high tongue?" How are we sure that the "high tongue," whatever it is, results in "fast air?" And to what extent do our individual concepts and prejudices about clarinet playing influence or even dictate our actions and what many insist are "musts?"
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-02 19:45
I believe one of Tony Pay's points was that because we don't have a sure and scientifically accurate direct perception of our anatomical positions and movement while playing, we have to rely on an indirect metaphorical route to get results. Our bodies are more subtle than our conscious mind in assembling the postures and pressures necessary to achieve a certain result. So rather than trying to move our tongue to a certain position to, say, get a focused tone, we need to IMAGINE that focused tone, and the body will do what is necessary (and quite beyond our direct consciousness) to produce the desired effect, including effecting changes in palate tension, air flow, and glottal movement. In some ways, our bodies are smarter and certainly wiser than our minds.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-02 20:14
seabreeze wrote:
> I believe one of Tony Pay's points was that because we don't
> have a sure and scientifically accurate direct perception of
> our anatomical positions and movement while playing, we have to
> rely on an indirect metaphorical route to get results.
> Our
> bodies are more subtle than our conscious mind in assembling
> the postures and pressures necessary to achieve a certain
> result. So rather than trying to move our tongue to a certain
> position to, say, get a focused tone, we need to IMAGINE that
> focused tone, and the body will do what is necessary (and quite
> beyond our direct consciousness) to produce the desired effect,
> including effecting changes in palate tension, air flow, and
> glottal movement. In some ways, our bodies are smarter and
> certainly wiser than our minds.
Well, yes, and I was too time-pressed and lazy this morning (and still am) to look any of that up and besides, I'm not anxious to try to speak in any way for Tony. But he does, as I remember, stress images (metaphors) that will produce the result we want, not so much images of the result itself, but of things we can control that end up producing the desired result.
You have to be careful about coming too close to Professor Howard Hill's "Think SYstem." Just imagining the result itself that you want won't necessarily produce it. It takes some experimenting to discover *reproduceable actions* that lead to the wanted result, anatomical actions you can reliably control, like pronouncing "ee" or, for many players, the age-old "rubber band" or "gasket" description of the embouchure. Tony's description of the jaw position as a wrench (with a set opening) is also more likely to be effective than "don't bite" or "only apply the jaw pressure you need."
And I think it's more important for teachers who try to convey ways to produce specific qualities to their students. Just telling a student to "raise your tongue" or "open your throat" or "lighten your tongue" or "keep your tone focused" may not suggest the same physical actions to the student that the teacher has in mind (which may indeed be themselves misinterpretations of his own habits). A metaphorical approach involving actions or concepts that teacher and student both understand in the same way, like the pronunciation of "ee," may enable the student's understanding much more easily.
For the OP: I'm not sure whether oboists think about tongue position or not. That would be a question for the folks on the Oboe BBoard. I know, having a son who is a trumpet player, that brass players do think about tongue position as a component of range, which is essentially how it was brought up in my own clarinet training. To ask "Why does the Clarinet require such a high voicing and/or tongue position?" implies that it *does* need a high "voicing" or tongue position as a general condition of playing. I'm not sure that isn't very closely connected to style and specific sound concept more than it is a general requirement.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-09-02 20:25
Exactly, the trick is to find the right image or metaphor to kick start the process. In addition to Tony's plumber's wrench, another example would be Brad Behn's "imagine you are blowing through a narrow straw." Of course the mouthpiece is not a narrow straw, but if the image gives you what you're looking for, then you don't worry about that. Remember the old saying, "don't look a gift horse in the mouth." Don't look too analytically into the mouth of a good metaphor either. It's not what's in the metaphor that counts but rather how well your body picks up the metaphor and where it takes you. Finding transportive metaphors is an important part of the pedagogy of teaching.
Post Edited (2022-09-02 20:51)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2022-09-02 20:53
Klarnt wrote:
> 1. Why does the Clarinet require such a high voicing and/or
> tongue position? I know it's needed for tuning, tone, and notes
> speaking... but what is the fundamental, acoustical, and/or
> scientific cause for needing such a high air speed?
I suspect there isn't a "fundamental, acoustical, and/or scientific" cause for **needing** a "high tongue position." I never heard in my own studies or through a good deal of my playing experience any discussion of "high tongue" or even air speed except as a way to make the altissimo range more reliable. I had no problem with tuning or notes speaking (unless I was pinching off the reed) and others' opinion of my tone seemed favorable (I always liked what I heard when I listened to recordings of myself).
A constantly high tongue position seems to be an element of the old "French school" but even then I don't think in my student days (mid-1960s to early '70s) it was much of a feature of the playing I heard locally. I read in one place a suggestion by Bonade that the mouth should pronounce "oo" with the lips and "ee" with the inside of the mouth (a nasal "u" in French, an umlauted "o" in German). Maybe other French players wrote the same thing, but I never saw it (this was very, very pre-Internet and pre-Google). My early teachers were all stylistically descended from French players, and I never heard anything but "open your throat."
I would concentrate less on "high tongue" and "fast air" and maybe think more about the musical quality of what's coming out.
Karl
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The Clarinet Pages
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