 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-02-21 22:50
At 75, my huff and puff is diminishing. So many beginner mouthpieces are designed to "build the embouchure". Well, with my having embouchure dystonia, I don't need a mouthpiece designed to do this as it makes my self-contracting dystonia muscles even worse. 1mm@34 is just too hard for me to play.
I've got a chance to get a Wolfe Tayne 3 mouthpiece which has a 0.033" or 0.85mm tip opening.
Has anyone ever played an ultra closed tip mouthpiece with a 34 facing?
Am I looking in the wrong direction?
My thanks in advance.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-02-22 00:12
I suggest a Mike Lomax Firebird mouthpiece. -a tip-opening probably similar to a Vandoren 5RV, but a mouthpiece that is infinitely better in terms of response and sound to a 5RV. Its sound is not thin and reedy.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2022-02-22 00:39
Dan,
Funny you should mention this as (at 71) I'm evaluating setups to make it easier to get the results I want with less effort.
To this end I've recently been playing a Selmer Echo (1.08 x 23 facing) in hopes that it would be easier than the B40s, BD(5,4,7)s I've played in recent years.
As it turns out, with the same reed (Pilgerstorfer Dolce 3.5, similar to V12 3.0), both my BD5 (1.13xM) and BD4 (1.155xML) mouthpieces are far easier to play than the Echo.
In short, the facing opening/length is hardly the whole story. The rate/location of the facing curve, baffle shape/depth/volume, throat shape/dimensions, chamber (to name only a few things of which I have read) can affect how the mouthpiece performs and the effort required.
For many years I played on a free-blowing Backun Arabesque (modeled after the rather open Vandoren B40). In my (recent) experience, the Vandoren BD4/5/7 and M30(Lyre) are among the more "free-blowing" designs as are most of, say, Greg Smith or Clark Fobes designs, independent of their facings. I have a Fobes Europa 12 that is perhaps the easiest blowing mouthpiece I own.
On the other hand some mouthpieces are (by design) resistant, independent of the facing. Among my resistant mouthpieces are my Echos, a Backun Philadelphia+ and a Ridenour.
I would suggest considering one of the mouthpiece designs known to be more "free-blowing" and pair it with a responsive reed (I highly recommend Pilgerstorfer Dolces or Daddario "Reserve" [i.e., not Classic or Evolution] ) and non-restrictive ligature and you may find a setup you like even though the facing may not be what you would expect.
Good luck in finding a mouthpiece that will allow you to keep playing and enjoy it more!
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-02-22 01:15
Thanks Bob. Yes, I'm familiar with all of the internal dimensions that you mentioned. I was, unfortunately, considering only the distance the reed had to travel to produce a tone and, yes, the internal dimensions either assist or make it harder to move the reed.
I just came from Clark's website and cannot find a Europa 12. His EUROPAs listed only go up to 5. However, there is a C12 mentioned. (His Cicero model). Could that be the one you're referring to?
Longer facing usually have less resistance (depending upon the arc), however, I'm much more comfortable with a 34 or a 36 in my mouth. (Actually, a 32 might even be more comfortable and Fobes C12 has a 32 facing with a 1mm tip.)
I've emailed Clark more than a few times and I hesitate to bother him again.
As I've mentioned to several people, I'm not interested in the Altissimo region, however, the Clarion region is very important to me.
Since I'm primarily a hobbyist on SS, I'm looking for the lowest cost alternative.
However, perhaps that's not really possible.
ruben, I couldn't find the Firebird listed on the Lomax website. I found a used one for sale in the EU. Lomax is closed today (American holiday) so perhaps I'll contact them tomorrow.
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2022-02-22 03:11
Dan, interesting topic! I can't find much information about the Wolfe Tayne clarinet mouthpieces - only what's on the JJ Babbitt site, which recommends that I call my local musical instrument store to pursue the matter further, but here in Australia that isn't going to help. Are there stores in your part of the world that stock Tayne mouthpieces? I couldn't find any.
Cheers!
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-02-22 04:44
I emailed Clark Fobes and received a super fast and friendly reply. I reminded him about my dystonia problem and he suggested his 10K CF model and offered to lengthen the normal 34 facing to 36 to help reduce the low resistance even further. He also offered a trial basis even after the modification which I thought was very generous of him.
Needless to say, I ordered it.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2022-02-22 14:20
Dan, aside from your question about the best kind of mouthpiece for you, and as I understand your embouchure dystonia, I'm thinking that the kind of embouchure that would serve you best would be with as little lip pressure as possible. That would be quite the opposite of what I would recommend otherwise (only lip pressure and all around the mouthpiece, no jaw pressure), since in your case I would suggest a level of lip pressure only sufficient to keep air from escaping around your mouthpiece - but nothing beyond of that.
For the still necessary pressure against the reed (for tone quality and pitch control) I would suggest that you use only your jaw. So yes, basically I'm saying that you should become a "biter" (!) - but only a moderate one. Thus be careful when choosing your reed strength (for whatever mouthpiece you eventually settle on) to avoid any excessive biting, due to unnecessary hard reeds.
You will of course loose the benefits of an only-lip-and-no-jaw-pressure embouchure, but since I don't think you are aiming for a professional career or anything similar, I think this would be of marginal significance. You will still be able to get a decent tone and to sufficiently control your pitch, without hopefully being too much hindered by your embouchure dystonia - and thus enjoy your playing more.
Maybe you are already working along these lines, but if not this would be my suggestion.
I also second the other suggestions about a free blowing mouthpiece, also since this would reduce the amount of lip pressure needed to keep your lips sealed.
Post Edited (2022-02-22 18:32)
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2022-02-22 16:07
Thanks, Dan, for your guidance on where to buy a Wolfe Tayne clarinet mouthpiece, especially the closest-tipped one. If anybody is interested, it costs $US89.99. (Remarkably, I was quoted only $US13.50 as the shipping charge to Australia, which is about a third of what the better-known mouthpiece makers charge - in fact, that's so low a charge that it's possibly a mistake, and anyway I dare say it wouldn't include tracking and certainly not any insurance; seems risky.)
It'd be great if somebody with experience of a Wolfe Tayne clarinet mouthpiece could chip in, but it's looking unlikely, alas.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-02-22 22:41
Dan:
I don't want to come across as snide but question why reed strength isn't being equally if not more factored into finding a setup that works for you here than mouthpiece lay attributes.
If I may make an analogy, to me it's almost as if this post were from the 1950s, and with advanced age, a poster was complaining about the difficult of turning a vehicle's non-power steering wheel while responders suggested a lighter vehicle rather than one with power steering.
Just a thought.....
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2022-02-22 22:44
Sorry I was just tired. My Fobes Europa is a 4 (1.12 x L), not a “12”.
Bob
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-02-22 23:33
SecondTry, no offense taken. When I couldn't play the Debut with a 1.5 Rico reed, I sensed that I had a rather serious problem. So, I did my homework. I did a lot of homework reading comments from users of various mouthpieces. It was a complaint listed on either WWBW or Amazon about a player being so frustrated that he couldn't find a reed hard enough to play the Fobes CF mpc that really blew me away. To me, that meant that the Fobes CF had so little resistance that I felt convinced that this particular mpc might get me playing again without overpowering my dysfunctional dystonia muscles.
Yeah, I could have gone down to a #1 reed, but that would have eliminated the entire clarion region which means a lot to me.
It was after I told Clark that I couldn't play his Debut that he recommended his CF mpc.
I'm not sure if this response clarifies your response since my dyslexia and the beginnings of dementia can confuse me at times.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-02-23 00:02
Clark makes great mouthpieces that are quite reed and user friendly. I hope it works out for you.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2022-02-23 00:27
I think you're on exactly the right track with that Fobes. As soon as I saw the title, I immediately thought of my San Francisco CF, which is remarkably free-blowing and quick to respond and has a beautiful sound. I have found I find a bit more resistance to be a bit more controllable, but I think a Fobes might just fit the bill wonderfully for your needs, Dan.
I have communicated with and purchased from Clark a number of times and he has always been great.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-02-23 01:01
Micke Isotalo, now that Clark is going to extend the facing from 34 to 36, I'll give the circular embouchure a try again. I've tried it before but it was on a slightly larger tip opening and a 34 facing. I believe the 36 facing with the closer tip opening may allow me to use the less pressure associated with the "draw string" circular embouchure to center the tone.
I'm for whatever embouchure method produces the least strain on my embouchure muscles.
I can still remember my first clarinet teacher back in the late 50's telling me that "I'm not smiling enough". The more I smiled, the more leakage I got on the right side of my mouth. He was hired by the music store and I had no idea as to his clarinet teaching background. Obviously, it was the wrong method but I didn't know that then.
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Author: rgoldem
Date: 2022-02-23 13:25
A free blowing horn can be of great help for people with dystonia or related difficulties. It is not just a matter of mouthpiece and tip opening. It is more complicated than that.
Please, see https://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?topic=1864.0 where the discussion is about an user-friendly clarinet.
Post Edited (2022-02-23 16:53)
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2022-02-23 19:11
Dan Shusta, I read your post with interest because I am also looking for something that is very easy to blow. I'm mid-60s, have returned to clarinet after a break (I wasn't very good before the break anyway) and have been playing recorder for the last 5 or 6 years which requires nothing at all in the way of an embouchure, which works for me.
You've probably seen this thread: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=431610&t=431610 I thought this sounded very promising. I haven't had a chance to try the Viotto yet but I plan to do so fairly soon. In the meantime, I've been playing on an old mouthpiece that came with a clarinet I bought. It's a German mouthpiece, so no use to you per se, and it's not a very good one anyway. However, I can say that it is very easy to blow. I'm using it with a Fiberreed (S) which I learned about in the user-friendly clarinet discussion that rgoldem refers to above. The mouthpiece is stamped 8822 which I believe indicates that it has a 0.88mm tip opening and 22mm length (similar length but smaller opening that the Viotto). The whole setup is how Paul Aviles describes the Viotto with WM 2.5 reed - it's just effortless to blow, all you really have to do is form a seal with your lips. I've always played double lip embouchure, it's more comfortable for me, so no biting and little pressure.
You might have already solved the problem as you have already ordered a mouthpiece. I hope that works out for you - good luck with it. However, if you do feel like exploring further, maybe the Viotto would be worth a try.
Edited to add: no problem at all with the clarion register and I can get the first few notes of the altissimo without difficulty and, as I said, I'm not very good.
Post Edited (2022-02-23 19:24)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-02-23 20:05
kerryklari,
So now you've peaked my interest. You mention that the German mouthpiece you have is effortless to play but you also say it is not very good. What is it about that mouthpiece that you don't like?
And........
If anyone finds a German mouthpiece, you can make it Boehm friendly by reducing the tenon diameter by only 1.00mm and shaving 1.00mm off of the tenon's length.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2022-02-23 21:51
I suppose I'm just being unfair and judging the mouthpiece by reputation rather than experience. It's a Lebü which I gather were common on instruments from the old DDR. Someone - I think on this board - said something along the lines of the clarinet being fine, but be sure to replace the mouthpiece, and I've read other comments about them not being all that good.
It is easy to play, in the way you described in your post about the Viotto. The tone isn't particularly great but it's hard to tell how much of that is the mouthpiece, and how much is me, which is why I thought I'd try the Viotto. In response to an earlier query of mine about these things, you said a Wurlitzer M3+ was a sort of benchmark German mouthpiece, and I actually bought one via ebay to try it but sadly it went missing in transit so I still haven't. I could get one from Thomann as they will take things back if you don't like them, but the Viotto sounded so good (and is also returnable) that I thought maybe I would try that first. The Viotto is actually a lot more open than the M3+ or the Lebü though - I presume other aspects of the geometry make the difference.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-02-23 22:53
rgoldem, thanks for sharing the article which I found to be very informative and interesting. Here it is again as a clickable link: https://clarinetpages.info/smf/index.php?topic=1864.0.
I've been in electronics all of my life and even taught electronics for a few years at a small university in Indiana. I like to think that I'm familiar with "impedance matching". Hopefully, "impedance matching" in electronics is somewhat similar to "impedance matching" with vibrating sound waves.
To me, the entire clarinet and player are like an intricate microwave oscillator. All it takes is for one part to be "out of tolerance" and the circuit simply won't work right or may not even work at all.
I sense that part of my problem is that I play on a rather small bore Vito 7242 Classic clarinet which has a bore size of 0.575" or 14.6mm. From this now defunct ad, the 7242 benefits and adverse side affects (primarily resistance) is described: https://www.musiciansfriend.com/woodwinds/vito-usa-7242-clarinet-outfit
To restate the ad: "The Vito 7242 Bb clarinet provides a superb tonal focus with its smaller bore (.575" / 14.6mm), providing greater resistance and control. Teachers who prefer this smaller bore design will be thrilled with the ease of centering and better response in the upper octave."
When I told Brad Behn what clarinet I had, he told me that the resistance would be equivalent to playing a Buffet B12. I love the intonation but wish it didn't have the greater resistance. Hopefully I won't have to change instruments because I bought it used in pristine condition.
I want to let everyone know that all of your comments are very useful and informative for me. Thanks.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-02-24 02:49
Hwy kerryklari,
Thanks for the extra explanation. I don't know how helpful some generalizations are from "the collective." One stock Buffet mouthpiece I tried was pretty amazing but it came with one of the horns owned by the Army and I was not quite familiar with their policy on "expendables" at the time (they probably wouldn't have cared a whit if I wanted that one).
If a mouthpiece WORKS for you, that should be the standard.
You are correct about their being "other geometries" with the Viotto. The fellow who actually makes them is getting on in years and they are pretty individual looking from one to the other. He plays them and adjusts to his sensibilities so the end result is in his ballpark. The one I have has pretty thick rails and is correspondingly a bit "thuddy" but it produces a pleasing sound and sent me on the right track as far as "easy playing" goes. I don't regret using that one as one would a bicycle with training wheels. I'd do it again in a heart beat!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2022-02-24 11:05
Paul : of course you are right, I'm not going to discard the Lebü just because it's not a "top brand". I wasn't able to use it when I first got it because the cork didn't seal properly. I had it re-corked as part of having the clarinet serviced and it was a bit of a revelation, much easier to play than the branded mouthpieces I had acquired. I'd still be interested to see if something like the Viotto gave me this plus improved tone though.
Can I be a bit cheeky and ask you an extra question: what does an Automatic Twelfth Key do? It links the speaker key to the ring for left hand first finger (on more expensive German system instruments at least). Is this just an intonation improvement thing?
Dan: apologies for hijacking your thread slightly.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-02-24 17:59
There are 4 aspects of a facing curve that determines its resistance (the baffle shape does some too). It needs to be symmetric to have low resistance. Longer facings and smaller tip openings have been mentioned already.
The facing curve will have the lowest resistance if it has a radial shape between the tip and facing length. Most clarinet facings are elliptical or close to a power curve (parabolic like). This helps provide some “good” resistance for tone and altissimo response. Since you are willing to give up on altissimo, I think you need to try a radial facing curve.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: ISM
Date: 2022-02-24 19:06
Dan,
As far as modern clarinets go, a bore of 0.575” isn’t all that small. I have read that nominally the Buffet R13 has a bore of 0.574” and that the Selmer 10S II had a bore of 0.567”.
Imre
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2022-02-24 22:02
Mojo, I have no idea what kind of curve Clark uses on his CF model.
However, given that the tip is 0.96mm with a 36 facing, for a radial curve, would you please tell me where on the measuring gauge the other two feeler gauges should read?
ISM, thanks for informing me about the small bore measurements of the R13 and the Selmer 10S II. Now, with those smaller bore measurements in mind, doesn't that automatically mean that those clarinets themselves would be slightly more resistive? Or, would tone hole undercutting negate or cancel out that aspect? My Vito 7242 has no undercutting of tone holes.
I ordered one of Clark's synthetic barrels because of the advertised "improved response" mentioned. Everything is being sent today, so it may be Saturday or Monday before the package arrives.
I'll let everyone know how it goes.
Post Edited (2022-02-24 23:06)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-02-25 20:10
I use a feeler gauge set that has closer spacing intervals, which I like for more detailed work. Here are my calculations for a low resistance .096mm/36 facing curve using my feeler set and also the traditional E.Brand set:
Radial Facing - Mojo Feeler Set
Feeler L R
0.0015 36.0 36.0
0.005 28.9 28.9
0.010 22.4 22.4
0.017 15.6 15.6
0.026 8.8 8.8
0.037 1.9 1.9
Tip Opening 0.960 mm
Tip Opening 0.038 inch
Tip Rail Width 0.028 mm
Radial Facing - Brand Feeler Set
Feeler L R
0.0015 36.0 36.0
0.010 22.4 22.4
0.024 10.2 10.2
0.034 3.6 3.6
Tip Opening 0.960 mm
Tip Opening 0.038 inch
Tip Rail Width 0.028 mm
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-02-27 01:01
Mojo wrote:
> I use a feeler gauge set that has closer spacing intervals,
> which I like for more detailed work. Here are my calculations
> for a low resistance .096mm/36 facing curve using my feeler set
> and also the traditional E.Brand set:
>
This is very useful information to have. Do you have an elliptical/parabolic curve for the same tip and length, or do they not go well together? What does an elliptical curve look like for a tip somewhere close to 1.00 mm?
Karl
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-02-27 18:15
I don’t have curves until I calculate them using an Excel spreadsheet. Given a tip opening and facing length, there is only one radial curve that passes through them and is tangent to the table. For elliptical and power curves, there is an additional parameter that controls the degree of curvature.
For ellipses, it is the aspect ratio of the ellipse. The length of the major axis (A) over the minor axis (B). If A/B = 1, the curve is radial. A 4 is a medium amount of good resistance.
I have a few videos on how to use my Excel spreadsheets to generate facing curves. I also have links in the videos on where you can download them for free.
Here is one: https://youtu.be/JbCqr12elno
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-02-27 19:43
I have seen a few excellent mouthpiece folks do re-facing. My question is for those of you who do this work. How do you impose all these intricate measurements while pulling a mouthpiece across a piece of sandpaper?
.........................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-02-28 10:06
Actually, it's NOT rocket science. If you've watched it being done, I'm not sure why you'd need an explanation as it's a very simple process (even if it might be guided by a more intricate knowledge of facings, the actual process is straightforward).
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-02-28 18:24
Small adjustment, measure, repeat. With practice you learn to get the right spot. I put paint marker dots on the side of the mouthpiece to help locate high and low spots. I clean them off when I’m done.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-02-28 23:34
Just wondered. The explanation of the different curves and measurements makes it sound like you would need a CNC to get all that correct. But I know you guys have been doing it “the old fashioned way” for eons.
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-03-01 18:40
CNC can beat many hand finishers. But good hand work can measure and correct irregularities in CNC-made facings. Machine and tool wear, vibration, fixturing issues, material thermal changes, etc. It does not take much to create some blips on a facing.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-03-02 02:11
Vitos are not resistant horns (at least compared to other modern horns). You have to take advertising statements like that with a giant heap of salt.
I'm sure that what Mojo says about facing curve shape is correct. It makes sense that if the facing is shaped the way the reed wants to bend, it's easier to play, and if you force it in some other direction it's harder. That's why balancing the reed is so important. It's also true that a harder reed on an open piece is harder. That said, I think much of the intrinsic blowing resistance (as opposed to control resistance) is due to the chamber size.
Blowing resistance seems to be caused by the size of the chamber. Large chamber pieces are harder to blow. Small ones are easier, as are high baffles. IMO this is caused by the constriction of air in smaller chambers. My theory is that a small chamber creates back pressure in the oral cavity, like a pipe that narrows. That back pressure pushes on the reed and reduces the apparent pressure needed to blow. On the contrary, a large chamber reduces pressure in the oral cavity, because there is less constriction. The player then has to work harder because they aren't getting any assistance.
In any case, I think larger chamber pieces are more stable, as are close facings. They're easier to control, and may require more air, but not necessarily a stronger embouchure. I always struggle with set-ups that are easy to blow because I don't have a lot of natural control. Easy to blow usually means hard to control.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-03-02 16:52
My theory on the effect of chamber suze and baffle is that it is an acoustic phenomenon not a fluid flow one. Smaller chambers and higher baffles sound brighter. So the sensation is that they generate more volume with less effort.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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