 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-01-29 13:41
I know several players who assumed they got the ideal Buffet A clarinet to match their Buffet Bb, but have been sadly disappointed with them. The only reason they went with the same model A as their Bb was for what they assumed would be a sense of familiarity and as near to the same playing characteristics.
I have tried to steer some players looking for an A clarinet to try as many other make and model A clarinets besides the same model Buffet they already have as they might be surprised another make/model A clarinet will offer them more than the matching Buffet A clarinet does.
Admittedly all factory fresh Buffets aren't exactly ready to play from new unless they've had a proper set-up done either by the seller or at the cost of the owner. Some of the players I know bought their Buffet A clarinets mail order without trying them first (and this was pre-Covid), so they haven't exactly done themselves any favours in settling with the only one they had delivered when they could've tried several and picked the best one out of them all.
Are you disappointed with your matching Buffet A clarinet?
If you found a better match to your Buffet Bb in another make or model A clarinet, what make/model A clarinet do you play and would you recommend?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2022-01-29 22:56
Chris: from my experience, you have it backwards. I bought a pair of R13s new in 1983. Right from the start, the A was a gem: a great balance of mellow tone quality but still enought freedom to project. Well in tune, and homogeneous, with no stuffy notes. The Bb was never as good. I played on it for many years, but always felt I was having to fight to get the results I wanted. Finally, in 2016 I bought a 1979 RC Bb (used by the principal of a UK military band), and at last I felt I had a pair of equal quality in terms of tone quality and response.
I don't know that one learns a great deal from this, as individual instruments vary so much. I've played a few Buffet A's of similar vintage to mine and they were not as good. Similarly, having found the 1979 RC Bb to play fantastically well, I very soon tried to buy another - as the keywork on mine was rather worn. I trialled two RCs of similar vintage to mine, and they were hopeless - less good-sounding than my original R13 Bb.
I own a few other instruments, and if my Buffet A was unavailable, the next best I have is a Howarth S2.
But based on instruments I own or have trialled, I would say that it is the Bb that is more often problematic: it's hard to find a Bb that has the warm sound of a good A, and they are often just too bright for my taste.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2022-01-30 01:10
No systematic difference in my experience - although where there’s a choice of instruments to pick from, there are likely to be more Bbs than As, so may limit the ability to find the elusive perfect match.
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2022-01-30 01:48
I guess this also touches on the question of how pairs of clarinets are selected. Often a first A clarinet will be bought to “match” and existing, familiar and played-in Bb, which poses obvious practical challenges. Buying the two instruments together presents different opportunities and challenges. If you have the luxury of a selection of both you might pick the “best” Bb and A instruments and find that although they’re individually great they may not match very well in terms of response, resistance, intonation etc. Ideally, you’d approach the selection with matching as an equally important part of the process, which might lead to a different result.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-01-30 08:36
Chris P. wrote:
"...Are you disappointed with your matching Buffet A clarinet?"
I am not disappointed but I think my Bb Buffet is "better" than my A Buffet.
However, I recently changed Bb from R13 Prestige to RC Prestige becuase I like the tone of the RC better. Two very good pro players told me they were equally good and it was a personal preference which to choose.
So now I am considering changing my A R13P to an RC Prestige also.
I recently tried a 'regular' RC in A and it was very good, almost on par with my R13 Prestige, but not better.
I have not tried many clarinets but those few I tried recently were pretty consistent with tone quality and tuning.
Regarding matching an A to a Bb: my teacher said once: ""Bb and A are different instruments".
It is probably impossible to find an A clarinet that would feel exactly like a Bb in tone quality, resistance, and overall feel (balance between registers, tuning, etc.)
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-01-30 12:54
Actually one of the main reasons buffet beating selmer in competition in the 1970-80's was that buffet's A clarinet was better by far than selmer's. And a matching pair is a absolute necessity for an orchestral musician, to be able to play both instruments with the same mouthpiece-reed-setup.
In those days me and one colleaque of mine began to test each other's A clarinets and we ended swapping them! Both of us happily played those instruments decades, i still do today.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2022-01-30 12:56)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-01-31 07:03
Jarmo Hyvakko wrote:
> Actually one of the main reasons buffet beating selmer in
> competition in the 1970-80's was that buffet's A clarinet was
> better by far than selmer's. And a matching pair is a absolute
> necessity for an orchestral musician, to be able to play both
> instruments with the same mouthpiece-reed-setup.
>
> In those days me and one colleaque of mine began to test each
> other's A clarinets and we ended swapping them! Both of us
> happily played those instruments decades, i still do today.
>
Apparently, I was wrong when I said it probably would be impossible to find an A clarinet exactly matching a Bb.
I think a good professional player makes minute adjustments when switching from a Bb to an A without thinking about it.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-01-31 10:13
>> The only reason they went with the same model A as their Bb was for what they assumed would be a sense of familiarity and as near to the same playing characteristics. <<
Anyone who tried many Buffet clarinets knows they vary a lot, even between the same model from about the same time. A lot of players who play Buffet Bb and A clarinets use different models, especially if they didn't buy them at the same time. They try an A clarinet and buy the one that is best, and it's not necessarily the same model as their Bb.
>> Some of the players I know bought their Buffet A clarinets mail order without trying them first <<
Probably one of the main reasons for the problem. They can be different enough from the same "batch", but from different times they can be even more different.
If I try to remember the best Buffet clarinets I've tried, the models vary a lot.
Though mail ordering clarinets is a lot less common here. Anyone who got to the point that they buy a good A clarinet doesn't just order one without trying.
I haven't found Buffet A clarinets on the whole worse than Buffet Bb clarinets, or that anyone playing a Buffet Bb and looking for an A should (or shouldn't) try a Buffet A.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2022-01-31 12:09
For someone seeking a playing experience and sound as similar as possible between a Bb- and A-clarinet, Lohff & Pfeiffer recommends the Buffet Vintage model. Personally I haven't ever played those, so I can neither confirm nor deny.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-02-07 18:13
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I just had this recent RC A clarinet come in for a service and noticed some things I've not seen before - they split the baseplate for the combined C#/G# and LH2 pillar and angled the C#/G# tonehole drilling UPWARDS. They have at least angled the adjusting screw on the RH F/C key in towards the key barrel but have in turn rounded off the end of the linkage piece on the LH F/C key so it still has far more travel than it needs. And that cork speaker key pad has been shaped poorly. See attachments.
It's still the same old, same old with the nylon pins in the LH levers, point screws, the LH2 ring key not fitted between the point screws, the poor RH F#/C# key springing with the spring on the key instead of in the pillar, those dreadful peel'n'stick foam shapes on the keys which don't stay put as well as the double case insides which means the bells still have to remain on the lower joint tenons with a slight bit of room to undo them a bit to allow the top quarter of the tenon cork to recover. The case is large enough to have all the joints separated and room for four barrels and two mouthpiece as well as an accessories compartment for a few odds and ends - Yamaha manage to do that in a much smaller case, so why not Jakob Winter who make the cases for Buffet?
And now I just noticed the trill key guide was loose and when tightened, it was 90° out so I had to shim it so it won't move.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-02-07 20:56)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2022-02-08 17:21
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> For someone seeking a playing experience and sound as similar as possible
> between a Bb- and A-clarinet, Lohff & Pfeiffer recommends the Buffet Vintage
> model. Personally I haven't ever played those, so I can neither confirm nor
> deny.
I have a pair of Buffet R13 Vintage clarinets. I can confirm the A is very nice, not that stuffy and resistant as many other Buffet A clarinets seem to be.
However, even then there is difference with the Bb. I have tried many Bbs but they were all a bit more open and less resistant than my A.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-02-09 19:04
Please see my post below
Post Edited (2022-02-09 19:23)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-02-09 19:21
Attachment: 20220209_095814_DxO.jpg (898k)
Hi Chris,
I have in my possession a brand new RC A.
I checked the F/C key and it is not rounded like the one in your picture, but the adjusting screw barrel is too far out so the left F/C lever travels a lot, albeit with little effort.
I also have an R13 Prestige A, in which the F/C key has the shape similar to the one in your picture- rounded.
However, the adjusting screw barrel is much closer to the right F/C key axis so the left F/C key on the Prestige has less travel compared to the one in RC...
The RC is a more recent instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-02-09 19:43
I also had to replace the lower joint tenon cork on account it was compressed and loose due to the bell remaining fitted whilst in the double case. The last new RC clarinets I had to replace tenon corks on had nice flat tenon slots which offer maximum contact with the cork strip, only the tenon corks failed due to the type of cork grease used (the cheapo lipstick-style stuff supplied by Buffet). I thought Buffet had done the decent thing and ditched those dreadful grooved or waved tenon slots, but this RC A clarinet has the dreaded grooved slots which I machined smooth in due course.
Key fitting has left a lot to be desired - the trill keys don't line up with the trill key guide meaning the top trill key catches on the inside edge of it when at rest, the LH2 ring key wasn't fitted so the long point screw was left loose, the edge of the LH E/B lever makes contact with the side of the LH F/C key rod and the RH E/B key is incredibly noisy on account the top end has been countersunk too much and the point screw can't be countersunk any deeper into the pillar as there's hardly any thread there anyway.
I've increased the ventings to free up the stuffy lower register notes and also added a Hasty pad to the speaker key to see if that helps, although it's down to the owner to see if this has improved it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MarkW61
Date: 2022-02-09 20:55
I would second John Peacock's experience, my A clarinets have always been better, certainly tone wise. I had Buffets for years and now I play on Eaton Elites and it is the same with them, the A has the sound I want, the Bb not so good.
Mark
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-02-09 21:26
I just gave it a play test and the lower register C# is still stuffy. I don't know why they decided to angle the C#/G# tonehole towards the top end of the instrument when that only takes it even further away from its ideal location when it should really be angled towards the tenon if anything. Also the regular F# fingering (LH1 only) is sharp against the side/chromatic F# key fingering.
Standard fingering throat Bb isn't all that great either (even though it's not the greatest of notes with that fingering on most clarinets), although the Hasty pad definitely reduces the hiss. The lower register E (xoo|ooo), C and G (xxx|xxx) are much clearer now the ventings have been opened up more as well as the open G where I used a cork pad in the LH1 ring key pad cup as well as opened up the venting.
I also noticed the bell is only stamped 'RC' on the back instead of RC A as they used to be and isn't chambered below the socket as they once did. I thought RC clarinets had different bells for both Bb and A (as R13s have), but this seems to suggest the same bell is used on both RC Bb and A clarinets. The inside of the bell was rough as anything and very dry looking as though it had only just been machined, so I papered it up smooth and gave it a good oiling. They're also using a completely flat bottom to the bell flare instead of radiusing it as they used to do.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: prigault
Date: 2022-02-09 22:44
I have a set of Bb (1985) and A (1992) RCs, both purchased new at the time. The bells are different (the A one is slightly longer and flatter at the bottom, although not completely flat). None of them is stamped (no model, nothing, except the brand logo of course). And they are not rough at all.
I have had both clarinets repadded with gore-tex and cork (register key) pads.
I love my RC in A, its homogeneity, tone and intonation. For the Bb, I generally play my more recent Festival (which is a little more resistant than my RC, especially in the altissimo), and each time a little voice tries to convince me that I should buy a newer Festival in A, I grab my A RC to play a bit and the answer comes quickly: no, that is not happening.
I don't care much about the matching of Bb and A models, and I often use a different mouthpiece on the A (alternate between B45 lyre and B40) than the Bb (B40).
Post Edited (2022-02-09 23:08)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-02-10 02:17
prigault wrote:
"I often use a different mouthpiece on the A (alternate between B45 lyre and B40) than the Bb (B40)."
That's a more practical solution to using the same mouthpiece on both clarinets, especially as the ligature and reed could come off when switching mouthpiece from one to the other. At least with old Selmers the same barrel and mouthpiece can be used on both which offers more security as well as having more of the instrument at playing temperature.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: prigault
Date: 2022-02-10 03:01
Chris P wrote:
> prigault wrote:
>
> "I often use a different mouthpiece on the A (alternate between
> B45 lyre and B40) than the Bb (B40)."
>
> That's a more practical solution to using the same mouthpiece
> on both clarinets, especially as the ligature and reed could
> come off when switching mouthpiece from one to the other. At
> least with old Selmers the same barrel and mouthpiece can be
> used on both which offers more security as well as having more
> of the instrument at playing temperature.
>
Indeed, switching mouthpiece from one to the other is rather risky (even with a sturdy ligature like the Vandoren Optimum), and switching at the barrel level is not possible thanks to Buffet's strange design decision (which I never understood) to have barrels of different lengths between their Bb (66mm for A440, 65mm for A442) and A (65mm for A440, 65mm for A442) models. The Buffet double case has two mouthpieces spots for a good reason it seems.
It is good practice anyway to have two copies of each mouthpiece model (even if one owns only a single Bb instrument) as a cheap insurance policy against a fall that always happens at the worst time.
Philippe
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-02-11 05:48
Chris P wrote:
"...I just gave it a play test and the lower register C# is still stuffy. I don't know why they decided to angle the C#/G# tonehole towards the top end of the instrument when that only takes it even further away from its ideal location when it should really be angled towards the tenon if anything. Also the regular F# fingering (LH1 only) is sharp against the side/chromatic F# key fingering..."
I found that increasing the C#/G# pad opening height/ clearance in combination with a cork pad makes the lower C# less stuffy, also helped by rounding the edges of the cork pad.
Also, on a very stuffy instrument, I once used your advice and made a small depression in the miIdle of the pad, which I believe also helped to clear up the note.
The chromatic F# (LH1) can be easily improved by allowing more opening or, in the worst case, opening the tone hole. The problem with new instruments is that they change and what is out of tune now can become in tune after a year of playing the instrument and the opposite is true as well. A very good tech (and an excellent performer as well) told me he does not touch tone holes on an instrument less than 6 months old.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2022-02-13 17:44
My Golden Era (1967) Buffet A is stuffy. My 21xxx series (1936) is as easy to play as a Bb (and the most prized instrument in my collection). My M series Selmer (1939) is fun; a little tricky to play sometimes (has that extra ring on the top joint).
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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