 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pritishbudhrani
Date: 2021-12-05 12:00
I have noticed that whenever I play, it is very hard for me to articulate fast. Keep in mind that I am a jazz clarinetist so I want to follow the swing articulation where its syncopated so any tips on how I can play faster songs without slurring the entire thing?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-05 16:11
So the standard advice is to say that you should "lighten up" on the tongue and articulate the air more.
I have have a chronically slow tongue (and I've come to believe most clarinet players with a burning desire to be much better than the level they seem to be able to achieve suffer from this issue) and therefore to get most of the "standard" repertoire within workable technique I have moved to double tonguing. I also modify the standard advice on double tonguing in that rather than using a standard "tongue-on-reed" for the "TEE," I tongue both the "TEE" (tip of tongue) and the "KEE" (further back on the tongue) on roof of the mouth. This is because there is a drastic air speed fluctuation between the tongue position for "on-the-reed" vs. further back and on the roof of the mouth that negatively effects the upper register.
And........
Yes, the faster you go, the more subtle the "definition" of the articulation gets. You actually wind up just modulating the air speed rather than causing a "full stop" as you would placing the tongue on the reed in a slower, more defined staccato.
Here is the very best video on double tonguing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoInFr4b8kQ
Please note where he says it will sound to you as if you are NOT articulating, but when you listen back on a recording, you'll hear the definition between the notes.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-05 18:44
Hi pritishbudhrani ,
Now that I'm finally managing to do articulation on muscle memory, I'm finding that I can do it quite fast. However, I'm not doing it fast by using any strategy or exercise, I just find that sometimes my tongue does drum-rolls, without me thinking about it. Also when I get to a place in music with fast articulation, sometimes I'm finding that it just happens, without me thinking about it.
It puzzles me a bit why this happens, because my fingers don't go fast, and I've never been able to run fast.
The reason for it, I think, is that in normal life I talk very very fast (and too much), with a Scottish accent, which includes strongly articulated consonants in almost every word (Mostly "D"s and "T"s).
I wonder if getting into the habit of heavily articulating consonants in speech might be a way to sharpen up articulation?
To give you an idea of what I mean, I have the same accent as Nicola Sturgeon demonstrates in this video below (You can hear her Ds and Ts very clearly, and almost see the articulation as she speaks)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXqLmi3poZk
Conversely, Joe Biden rarely articulates consonants, and you can see that he rarely tongue-articulates in speech if you watch him here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbQOKCWx19M
I wonder if carefully articulated speech habits might be a route to good clarinet articulation?
(I have no idea what kind of accent you have, so I may be talking rubbish)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-12-05 20:52
While some players can single tongue faster than others, all players can or have benefitted from simply putting themselves in front of an etude with 16th notes, and setting the metronome to a rate at which they can play two of the four notes slurred, and the other two notes tongued.
With time the speed at which this can be done will increase for players who haven't reached the physical limits of their abilities; and I'll bet you haven't.
Vary this up. Slow the metronome and tongue 3 of 4 notes, or all 4 notes.
"Slur two tongue two" has become part of the clarinet player's parlance for a reason
https://youtu.be/RVBod2kPAnc?t=5
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-06 04:10
Just to be clear, there are folks who can take a long sixteenth note passage of articulated notes at 140 beats per second.......no problem. This is not big ask in the standard repertoire, but it can be impossible for many (me included) in a single tongued format. I had a practical example of different physical limitation handed to me by a student to whom I was introducing double tonguing. After I outlined what I wanted the student to do, the student came back with the remark, "But how would YOU know if I'm single tonguing or not?" Of course the fact that it didn't matter to the student told me all I needed to know. People who can tongue fast just don't know what it is like for that to be a physical impossibility.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: prigault
Date: 2021-12-06 05:00
140 beats per second ? That'll mean business and put to shame Hindemith's sluggish 640 BPM viola sonata! ;-)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-06 06:48
Oops, yes sorry for the detail error. The point is that those that can, don't understand the rest of us. Nowhere in my education (many fine players) did any of them suggest that I look into double tonguing. They only used the tired old, "lighten up," and such.
But you don't have to look far for repertoire that calls for fast articulation: Beethoven 1st, Beethoven 4th, Rossini Semiramide, Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream, just to name a very few of a LOT.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-12-06 08:02
I won't give "mechanical" advice (there has already been some good advice here).
This is the exercise Russianoff showed me in 1973 that made my weak tonguing into a strong attribute--
Start on low C. Play CCCDEEEFG, hold the G. Go as fast as you can until it's sloppy. Then repeat the fastest "non-sloppy" speed many times. Then go a little faster to the next speed & repeat process.
Next, up I down the scale-- CCCDEEEFGGGABBBCBBBAGGGFEEEDC- hold the C. Then 2 octaves and in all keys.
My theory on why it works---
The idea is it's easier to tongue repeated same notes and you always have 3 in a row the same. But you also have 3 in a row that are different, so you are thinking about coordinating those changing fingerings with your tongue while playing the 3 repeated notes.
I saw a big change in as little as 3 weeks.
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Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-06 09:55
Is double tonguing when you flip the tip of the tongue up and down really fast and touch the reed with the tip of the tongue on the way down as well as on the way up?
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-12-06 19:10
SunnyDaze, flipping the tip rapidly up and down like that would probably be called flutter tonguing. I don't think it's very common among reed players, although I heard of one pro on bassoon who can do it. I can't.
Double tonguing usually means alternating a tongue strike on the reed (articulating "t" or "d") with some other consonant that interrupts the air but doesn't touch the tongue to the reed (e.g. "k").
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-12-07 00:19
Double tonguing alternates a frontal tongue stroke with a back tongue throat or glottal thrust. The syllables du-gu, tah-ka or gha-kuh are often used. To play evenly with this technique requires much practice on the back tongue throat phase. It is a challenge to get the gu, ka or kuh syllable as loud and distinct as the du, tah, or gha syllable.
Brass players and flutists routinely use multiple tonguing but it has been considered an "imported" technique on the clarinet. Martin Frost and Amaury Viduvier are known for having perfected double tonguing on the clarinet, and Nicholas Baldeyrou has an especially delicate and even touch with it.
Here are a few demonstrations of double tonguing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHzA3ArHar0
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=michael+rusineck+double+tongue.
Martin Frost at one point double tonguing the Flight of the Bumblebee:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbQwQetKm2g.
The top and bottom alternation of the tongue is another technique, sometimes called the diddle-diddle, paint brush, or side swiping technique.
Post Edited (2021-12-07 01:01)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-07 04:12
To answer SunnyDaze, the up/down stroke is used by some fine clarinetists who can do that technique. I think John Yeh is one (asst principal of Chicago Symphony).
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: sal
Date: 2021-12-10 03:04
I think most rapid tonguing issues are actually embouchure issues.
Set your metronome to desired tempo, and practice ONLY the first note, making sure the first note is started with tongue, AND ENDED WITH THE TONGUE. Add the next note, the second note started by removing tongue(which was placed on the reed to end the first note, and make sure the second note is ended with tongue placed on the reed.Continue doing this until articulated passage is complete.
I never practice rapid articulated passages slowly, I find it a waste of time. People often change their tongue stroke, depending on tempo, so essentially you could use the tongue differently at a slower tempo than at a faster tempo-so what is the point of practicing it slower?
At tempo, one note added at a time, making sure each note is both started AND ENDED with the tongue on the reed.
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-12-10 06:11
One thing that MAY help is to have the mouthpiece enter your mouth at a steeper angle (another way of saying, hold the instrument a little closer, and don't dip your head down like you're looking at the clarinet).
NOW, I can name at least 2 clarinet players who have super fast tonguing, but who have the instrument enter their mouth at right angles (Eddie Daniels and the sexy Ottensamer guy
BUT for many students I've taught (and many of us less insanely talented types) the steeper angle seems to help. Here's why - with the increased angle of entry, the "contact point" with the reed moves FORWARD in the mouth closer to the teeth, and to a more natural spot (similar to where a flute player or trumpet player will tongue).
With the head down, and the clarinet entering the mouth closer to a right angle, that "contact spot" is moved slightly back in the mouth, so tension is created as you have to bunch your tongue muscle "back" rather than being "forward" in the mouth.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-13 16:29
Thanks for explaining.
I just tried, and I can't do the double tonguing technique, even without the clarinet involved. After doing it about 3 or 4 times, my tongue runs out of steam and I can't get the back of my tongue into position.
The flutter tonguing thing really interests me because it's a thing that tiny babies do instinctively. Babies tend to nod of with their mouths open, and if you look in, you can sometimes see the tiny tip part of the tongue fluttering up and down at astonishing speeds (maybe ten up/down cycles a second?). It's funny because the tip looks like the tip of a flag fluttering in the wind, but of course, that can't be what causes it. I looked on youtube, but I can't find a video to show you. The term "fluttering" means something entirely different with baby tongues, confusingly.
I will keep flutter tonguing my clarinet and see what comes of it. :-)
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2021-12-13 16:52)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-12-13 23:12
Anatomically, flutter tonguing and double tonguing are not at all the same. Clarinetists who can double tongue may have difficulty flutter tonguing and clarinetists who can flutter tongue may have difficulty double tonguing.
The speed of double tonguing can be consciously controlled. The virtuoso trumpet player Raphael Mendez on The Virgin of Macarena used to do the equivalent of a drum roll increasing in speed from very slow to machine-gun rapidity--all with double-syllable articulation! taaaakaaaa-taaakaaa, taaa-kaaa-taaa-kaaa, taakaa-taakaa, taka, taka, tk, tk, tk, tk etc, faster and faster. He did this by willfully speeding up the alternation time between front syllable to back syllable. Like speeding up the right and left drum sticks in a drum roll. The Resnick and DeLutis videos show this property of double tonguing pretty well.
Flutter tonguing is very different. The player sets the tongue in a certain position, and pushes air out as the tongue passively accepts a single syllable (dooh for example) and just "rattles in the wind." The player does not have the same direct control over the speed of the flutter or rattle that they would have in double tonguing. The fluttering just happens as an artifact of the "sweet spot" made by convergence of tongue position, single syllable, and exactly the right air pressure.
Double tonguing is a very conscious effect--all active, not passive. The player controls every aspect of it. Flutter tonguing is something that happens of its own accord when the player provides the right conditions. I'm not sure anyone can make flutter tonging speed up or slow down or do a drum roll effect with it. But they can make it louder or softer or more or less nasty sounding.
On the clarinet, most players have to practice double tonguing for a long period before the results are anything like musical. Persistence is required for maybe a year or more. Also the higher the pitch, the harder it is to double tongue. In the altissimo it might never work well for most players.
Post Edited (2021-12-14 07:40)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2021-12-16 00:24
Quite recently I discovered for myself that a "light" approach also to double tonguing can make it significantly faster. That is, by doing both strokes as light as possible and just barely perceivable. Thus I nowadays also favor the describing syllables dah-ga rather than tah-ka. Then if the music asks for a sharper articulation, you would of course need also the "harder" variant - but your speed would probably be less (but perhaps still faster than by single tonguing).
Whenever learning something new, or maybe re-learning something, I would recommend starting slowly. So also with double-tonguing, but once you've got it with speed and in a consistent manner throughout the register, maybe with a specific piece you could try also as suggested above by starting already with the desired tempo and then add notes one by one - instead of adding tempo.
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