 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: dorusboomen
Date: 2021-02-26 17:56
Hello everyone,
Recently I have bought a Buffet Crampon Prestige Bass Clarinet, but it is an older model. I am really in love with it, it is an amazing instrument, so first of all out of simple interest, but also for the insurance company, I would love to have some more information about my bass clarinet! Or in case I ever want to try out other parts, like a new neck from Blashaus or the Icon Line, it is quite important to know what kind of model I really have.
Sadly the serial number search engine on the website of Buffet Crampon is no longer there and I simply cannot find anything on my specific model.
So if anyone knows more about this and could provide me with a bit more insight, I would really love that!
A bit more about my bass clarinet:
My model doesn't have the groove in the wood on the lower joint, it is just smooth.
The low C valve/hole is on the wood of the lower joint, in contrast to the newer model, where the low C is placed on the metal on the bell. The bell has no holes whatsoever.
The valve on the neck, for the upper duodecime-key, is different to the newer model, so I can't put the neck of the newer model on it, sadly (I've tried...).
The serial number is 30217.
It does have 3 keys for the low D (left pinky, right pinky and thumb)
Thank you!
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2021-02-26 21:53
Does the low D key have a pin going through the wood like on bassoon?
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-02-26 22:25
Buffet started making the current model Prestige around 1999 (it had a few small changes but it's essentially the same since then). According to a Buffet S/N chart, 26xxx was made in 1993. So you're bass is from somewhere between those years, probably the one just before it was changed to the current model.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2021-02-26 23:51
Are there small slot screws that attach the lower notes keywork to the pillars? That would be another relatively clear sign that this model is infact a pre-99 prestige.
Best regards
Christian
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Author: Steve Becraft
Date: 2021-02-27 03:53
I own a Buffet Prestige low C model, # 24569. I had to have extra work done to the instrument to accommodate a new neck. I would be curious to see a picture of your instrument's neck and its interface with the octave mechanism!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-02-27 16:22
That is a late '90s model just before they completely redesigned them if it has the front low D touch and the long lower joint with all the keywork on it (and no bell key). The downside with these basses is they're longer than usual, so you have to make sure you have a decent height chair when playing one, especially if you're under a certain height otherwise the mouthpiece will be at eye level.
The automatic speaker mechanisms on these basses is far more complex than it needs to be, both at the top end and in the RH main action. Just as well Buffet simplified everything with their 1999 redesign as they're by far the simplest low C basses to work on compared to similar age Selmer and Yamaha low C basses.
I know two people with these older (pre '99) low C Prestige basses and I'm glad I held out until 2000 before buying mine as that is of the new design and has slotted adjusting screws instead of the ones they used in 1999 with Allen key heads as flat blade screwdrivers are far more commonplace than having the correct size Allen key to hand should you need to make any on the fly adjustments.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorusboomen
Date: 2021-03-12 21:40
Attachment: IMG_20210312_182833.jpg (735k)
Attachment: IMG_20210312_182853.jpg (867k)
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Hello everyone!
First of all, I'm sorry that I haven't replied sooner. I was under the impression that I would get email-notifications when someone posted in this topic. Apparently I don't.
Second of all, thank you for your insights! That is definitely helpful!
@jdbassplayer
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I don't think so. All the keywork is 'on' the wood, nothing goes through the bass clarinet itself.
@clarnibass
Interesting. Could I ask you where you found this Buffet S/N chart?
@Kalashnikiby (or Christian)
There are, yes. I did not know that the newer (or at least other) models don't have these.
@Steve Becraft
That sound really interesting! I've added some pictures. I would likewise be very interested to see, or at least to read, what kind of work you had done!
@Johan H Nilsson
Thank you, the others seem to agree with that as well!
@Chris P
Thank you for your reply. Of course, I would have loved to have a newer model, because you're right, this one does require some hard work due to the older key system. I have gotten used to it though, and to me it's not a huge problem. I like the sound, for classical, but also other stuff. I'm simply glad that I have my own Bass Clarinet at all!
The thing I'm curious about is your comment about the Allen key heads. There are none of those on my bass, only flat blade screws.
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-03-13 03:24
That's more or less the same register mechanism as on my 1930s Buffet bass... Works fine once it's set up (as long as Cork doesn't compress or screws turn). Dn
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-03-13 09:45
The S/N chart is on Clarinet Perfection. Scroll down to the Harmony Clarinets list. It only goes to 26xxx in 1993 though, but that tells you yours is newer. I also used to have a Buffet bass from the first year of the new/current model so know it was 1999, and yours is clearly from before that.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-03-14 00:43
With ALL interlinked mechanisms with levers and adjusting screws, cork is the worst thing to use as a silencing material under them as it compresses too much and feels spongy.
Use much more durable materials like tech cork (gasket cork, rubco, gummi-kork, etc.) and to reduce friction if there's a fair bit of sliding, coat it with graphite from a soft pencil (2B to 6B). You can always stick self adhesive Teflon tape to it if you want, but that doesn't always like to stay put.
In some places you can fit nylon tips to adjusting screws provided the monofilament is domed and polished instead of cut square as that doesn't allow for good adjustment or can even make things feel clunky. Drill the screw tips out and glue in a piece of nylon monofilament, cleanly cut the tip to around 1mm long and using a fine file (with the screw mounted in your bench or lathe chuck), shape the protruding piece of nylon into a dome so it resembles a rivet in profile.
Commercially available teflon tipped adjusting screws often have square or unevenly cut tips that need to be levelled and domed for better action and adjustment, but teflon can crumble if subjected to too much pressure.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorusboomen
Date: 2021-03-14 01:28
@donald
I recently had the whole bass set up, and everything works as it should I believe. I have only two problems actually, and that's the middle B (everything closed, with register key) is quite sharp, and the lowest C# as well. I was wondering if the middle B being sharp could have anything to do with the register mechanism... Do you experience the same thing on your 1930s bass?
@clarnibass
Thanks, that really narrows it down!
@chris
Thanks for your response, I will definitely keep this in mind.
Just to be clear, as English is not my first language, did the photographs of my bass give you a reason for pointing this out? The system around the two register keys on my bass actually has quite a lot of teflon/nylon/other plastics, instead of cork, but I can imagine that on the pictures, it kind of looks like cork.
Or was this more of a remark in general? I would be grateful for any clarification.
Post Edited (2021-03-14 01:32)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2021-03-14 10:26
>> and that's the middle B (everything closed, with register key) is quite sharp, and the lowest C# as well. <<
These are common problems.
The former on almost all bass clarinets, some being better than others. I've tried a couple of basses same model as yours and it was sharper than on the current model, where it's also a little sharp.
For the latter, it can happen particularly when the last key is on the body, because it is pretty much as low as it can be (above the tenon). A design solution would be an even longer bottom section, with a shorter bell to not have low C too low (or a bell vent hole, possibly, since that's not always a good solution). The reason they do that is to use the same bell on low Eb and low C models. At least that's the case for some basses, not sure about this model specifically, but probably it is.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2021-03-14 13:08
>> and that's the middle B (everything closed, with register key) is quite sharp, and the lowest C# as well. <<
There is a work-around that some people use to flatten the middle B. I think I remember reading (maybe on this board?) that people have used it on one of the older buffet models, so it may work on your instrument.
Glue a thick block of cork under the thumb low-D key, so that it doesn't close fully. This means that when you press the key, it will rest on the cork and the pad cups will come near to the lower tone holes, without completely closing them. Then, if you have a middle B that needs to be flattened, just finger middle B as normal, while pressing the thumb key. This will reduce the venting, and the middle B will be flattened... obviously don't press the thumb key when you play low E, as that note is usually not sharp. The compromise is that you will no longer be able to use the thumb key to play low D as it won't close the holes properly, but you should be able to play it using the pinky keys: BTW this depends on how the thumb key is linked to the other keys---I think it works on those buffet instruments.
For the sharp low C# you can put some "blu-tak" or wax on the upper inside surface of the lowest tone hole on the instrument. It will flatten low C#, though it might also make it sound a bit stuffy. It will also slightly flatten low D.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-03-14 21:28
It appears to have plenty of teflon sheet and heat shrink plastic used in the linkages, so that will keep the friction down. Natural cork is alright as stopper corks in some places, but not everywhere - sadly there are still some dinosaur repairers out there that haven't progressed to the 21st Century and still insist on using cork everywhere regardless of how spongy, noisy or unsuitable it can be. That might have been the best material back in the dark ages, but there are much better suited materials for use in specific applications that are available to everyone instead of sticking to 19th Century and other outmoded principles.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorusboomen
Date: 2021-03-17 01:46
@clarnibass
Thank you, quite weirdly it does feel better that it is not only me experiencing this. Really good to have some background.
@ebonite
Wow, those are some really creative solution. I haven't had time yet, but I wil definitely try these things out! I'll get back on wether it worked for me or not. But thank you for providing these options!
@Chris P
Thanks for the clarification. I think you're right. I've luckily experienced this only once, a really long time ago, that some cork was in places It really shouldnt have been, so I was back at the shop within a few weeks. He fixed it for free though.
Luckily everyone else in my area has progressed!
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-03-17 02:42
Yep, the sharp B is a pain on most basses. I got to use a bass with a customised register mechanism (by Rene Hagman) and the b was in tune, quite a shock, and made playing bass significantly easier...
Solutions on a standard bass
- an extra thumb key so you can use the b flat trill key as a 2nd register key (Buffet did this for a friend in the 1990s,don't know if they still offer that service). Works for one note only, the b, so not that convenient..
- use your right thumb to open the b flat side key to use as register key (only works when playing with a floor peg)
- keep a beanie nearby to stuff in the bell when you have an exposed b coming up (only works for e flat bass)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-03-17 02:48
I had a Selmer bass in a few years back with cork used everywhere as well as all the ventings set way too low. After replacing all that cork, reseating the pads, opening up the ventings and balancing the spring tensions much better to make it much lighter and more positive under the fingers, it really came to life.
Similarly with the same model bass you've got which didn't have enough 'throw' in the RH3 to make the speaker mechanism function well, replacing all the natural cork made a massive difference. At some point I'm expecting another pre-'99 Prestige low C bass in which had a tough life as it was a military band instrument sold at auction along with others in far worse condition - this one was missing a point screw, although it was replaced after it was bought it still remains to be seen if it's a good fit or not.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorusboomen
Date: 2021-03-17 14:06
@donald
Thanks for your solutions as well! I think your second point is a good option at times, I'll try that out. It is still manageable to correct with my embouchure, so at times when I need some agility, I can adjust that way, but with long notes this could definitely be a good solution, because correcting with embouchure doesn't do the sound a lot of good...
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-03-18 03:06
I played a contemporary music concert with Auckland Chamber Orchestra in 2019 where I did an entire program of pieces utilising bass clarinet in chamber groups. I was the only sucker playing in EVERY piece, and had multiphonics/altissimo range etc all thrown at me.
I played a Buffet low C bass for most pieces, but for one piece used my 1930s bass as it only goes to E flat, this meant I could use the "hat trick" for a couple of exposed Bs. Very luckily that piece didn't have any low range notes (ie Ds and Cs) so I could use the Eflat bass, as the Bs really needed to be in tune (unison pitches with piano, tuned percussion and open notes on the strings). I tried to be inconspicuous, pulling out a beanie and putting it in the bell during a few bars rests, then removing it while holding a long note with my left hand!!!! One audience member asked me about it later, but it WORKED! (in that piece at least).
Post Edited (2021-03-18 08:08)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2021-03-18 12:09
dorisboomen: you could try the beanie trick to see if it will flatten your low C# (of course, low c will become unavailable....)
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Author: dorusboomen
Date: 2021-03-18 15:33
@donald
That sounds like a tough day! But fun too. Really awesome that the beanie trick worked for you! I'll definitely try these kinds of solutions, of course depending on what the piece requires of me, like you did. With me, the 'beanie' note (low C#, like 'ebonite' suggests) does have better intonation, but also becomes quite stuffy. Did you experience this as well? Or do I maybe simply need to find a smaller beanie..?
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