 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2020-11-21 09:42
If double lip is so great why isn’t it the norm?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2020-11-21 23:14
Most who learn what double lip is are already trained to use single lip. Also, double lip is different enough that switching isn’t exactly easy. You also have to consider slot of the bad habits that players have adopted. Using unbalanced reeds, mouthpieces with crooked facings, very hard reeds, biting, and an obsession with a dark (deadened) sound. All things not compatible with double lip playing. Then you have the simple fact many players who are aware of double lip playing, have tried it and respect what it has to offer...still prefer performing long concert with single lip.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-11-21 23:30
It isn't that double lip is "so great." It's that some players are more comfortable and feel more in control than they (we) do with single lip. Chacun à son goût.
Why the challenging tone? Is someone trying to force you to switch?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-11-22 00:01
It offers different results. Listen to Harold Wright (the Shubert Octet particularly) to hear. It is light and flexible in sound. But if you need more of a "power" approach, you cannot do that easily with double lip.
Many good things; some drawbacks.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2020-11-22 03:30
I didn’t mean to be challenging. I had just watched another Tom Ridenour video as well as listening to Harold Wright.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-11-22 04:16
Ah!
Tom is of course a well-known proponent of DL - somewhere in one or two of his videos he must explain why he prefers it. Harold Wright was a student, like Kalman Opperman (another DL promoter), of Ralph McLane, whose clarinet lineage went back to Hamelin and the French school.
Paul Aviles wrote:
> It offers different results. Listen to Harold Wright (the
> Shubert Octet particularly) to hear. It is light and flexible
> in sound. But if you need more of a "power" approach, you
> cannot do that easily with double lip.
Funny thing is, I'm not really sure that Wright always sounded "light and flexible." He did in any of the chamber music recordings I've listened to. But I also heard him play live twice, once at a one-off lesson I took while I was stationed at Ft. Meade and he was teaching at Catholic U., and once in a Boston Symphony concert in Symphony Hall. As I remember, he played quite powerfully in those two instances.
There have been other American players, particularly among Bonade's students (and including Bonade himself), who described their single lip approach as an attempt to mimic the action of a DL embouchure without actually tucking the upper lip under the teeth. I'm pretty sure I've heard Ricardo Morales say the same thing in at least one of his videos.
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-11-22 04:29
I suppose just like all the equipment discussions, it may be about what is right for you. There are things about double that are somewhat different and need to be approached as such. Often I find discussions about double lip that are filled with myths and various word of mouth information.
I learned and played single for many years. A number of years ago I switched to double for a variety of reasons. For me, I found it to be a positive change.
While double lip may have contributed to certain aspects of Wright's playing, I would find it hard to determine the proportion that contributed to his unique approach vs his incredible musicianship. I doubt that his approach was dictated by how he played or what equipment he played, a sort of chicken or the egg argument.
FWIW- after I changed to double I don't think there was any change in my power or projection as I continued to play in various settings. I don't believe my colleagues detected any change as well.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-11-22 07:14
Maybe not volume per se but listening to Wrigth live vs. Marcellus or Combs there was a CLEAR difference in style. The later being more oriented to big chunks of sound coming at you. It's hard to describe the Wright, Yeh sound............just more flexible in dynamics somehow.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Nelson
Date: 2020-11-22 14:09
The first teacher I went to back in 1958 was a fine player in the Central Band of the RAF. He advised me to try double lip saying "you'll never regret it". I took that advice and that's the path I've followed for 60 years. Happily, I get generous comments on my tone which is satisfying but I can't be absolutely sure Double Lip is one of the contributing factors. I have never used single lip.
I still believe I made the right choice at that time but the path to a 'comfortable state' playing in that fashion was filled with a sore lip, a wobbling instrument and temptation to stop the struggle and be like all my fellow players, and it can still be rather painful when things are full on. I'm told that my tone is 'broad, rich and creamy', but with the wonderful sounds I hear coming from one of our local pro orchestras, all Single Lip players, I'm feeling that DL can't lay claim to being the path to anything vastly different to the listener from that achievable using SL.
If playing with DL helps us to achieve our own ideal in terms of sound, then it's a great result. I believe it opens the oral cavity with the advantage of resonance (not loudness). Perhaps it allow a more direct 'oneness' with the instrument while at the same time avoiding those conducted vibrations through the resting teeth and gets rid of the need for the intervention of a protective patch?
But can DL lay claim to being 'better' in any way ? I believe it may have helped me to get close to what I once held as my ideal .....but now, 60 years on, I stand in awe at the superb sounds achieved most splendidly by fine SL players. Each of us will decide on the tone we want and, perhaps with help, how best to find a way to work towards it and what methods unlock the door for us.
I wouldn't imagine it isn't being introduced and taught by too many teachers which is probably why it's not the 'Norm'
Nelson
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Author: andy63
Date: 2020-11-22 17:26
Hello
I found this link to an article on this subsect.
Regards /Andy
https://www.dansr.com/vandoren/resources/the-vanishing-double-lip-clarinet-embouchure
Buffet Tosca ,Buffet Rc Greenline ,Yamaha YCl-881 Eb
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-11-22 18:01
andy63 wrote:
> Hello
> I found this link to an article on this subsect.
> Regards /Andy
>
> https://www.dansr.com/vandoren/resources/the-vanishing-double-lip-clarinet-embouchure
>
Interestingly, he doesn't tell us directly whether the clarinetists polled for Gold's book were all American or not. I suppose we could assume, since the book's title is Clarinet Teaching and Performing Practices in the United States and Canada that he was polling North American clarinetists. I wonder what a poll, either in 1973 (when Gold's book was published) or now, of an international selection of players would have shown (or would show).
I would only quibble with Estrin's conclusion that "double lip is more difficult for younger players to learn and achieve, as it initially has less embouchure stability and requires greater muscle control of the upper lip." I currently have two students who as beginners started out with (and still use) double lip and it doesn't seem to have occurred to either that the embouchure was difficult to achieve. They did need some help refining it, but that's true of students who learn to play single lip as well. It's true they didn't know there was an alternative when they started, so it wasn't a choice, but they have since become aware of the single lip approach and, now having the choice, still prefer DL.
This isn't to demonstrate anything about which is "better." But DL isn't, apparently (I can't say from experience because I became a "switcher" in my 20s), a real obstacle for young players who start out that way.
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-11-22 19:12
Quote:
Maybe not volume per se but listening to Wrigth live vs. Marcellus or Combs there was a CLEAR difference in style. The later being more oriented to big chunks of sound coming at you. It's hard to describe the Wright, Yeh sound............just more flexible in dynamics somehow.
I would tend to believe that was more due to Wright's concept and approach to music. For example, David Weber was a double lip player, but his sound was unlike Wright's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhhta2FlXls
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-11-22 19:39
The question of positional control is interesting. The mechanical stability SL provides comprises a system of muscular effort that is a separate thing from sound production. It doesn't necessarily interfere with sound production, but there can be overlap if one isn't careful or aware, especially in the use of the jaw (i.e., biting etc.)
Playing SL, I was formerly somewhat of a biter, and I needed a mouthpiece patch to protect the mouthpiece. With DL, that went away, and an unexpected side effect happened. My tongue noticeably freed up. Apparently the varying tension in the lower jaw had been also expressed in the tongue, since the two are physically connected. Again, that wouldn't necessarily be the case if someone was careful and aware enough to avoid it. When DL forced my lower jaw to relax, it stabilized to a degree, and my articulation muscles seemed to clearly appear as a separate system for the first time. My articulation rather suddenly improved. That was an additional benefit alongside the sense of a more intimate feel for the mouthpiece that DL gave me.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-11-22 22:59
I played double-lip for nearly 30 years professionally but only use single now in my old age.
In the last few years, I have asked fine clarinet players to tell if they could tell which of two excerpts I played were single or double-lip and, usually got wrong answers or 'can't tell'. I bet the best single-lip players today are playing the 'double-lip' way, correct muscles, oral cavity, jaw pressure, etc.
Try it just to learn what it is, It would be a valuable educational experience.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2020-11-23 04:55
Well the David Weber clip is fantastic. If double lip is a contributing factor it’s worth doing!
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: duxburyclarinetguy
Date: 2020-11-24 01:48
I studied with Harold Wright for 5 years and heard him up close in lessons and in Symphony Hall and Jordan Hall many many times. I would say that he was absolutely capable of playing with a big sound when necessary. That said, playing in Symphony Hall with its enviable acoustics, never required him to force his sound to be heard. For those in playing in Chicago and Cleveland, the concert hall (and conductors) may likely have had some influence the sound of the principal clarinetists.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-11-24 02:59
duxburyclarinetguy wrote:
> I studied with Harold Wright for 5 years and heard him up close
> in lessons and in Symphony Hall and Jordan Hall many many
> times.
I'm interested in what he said to you about how much upper lip to take in.
When I took the one lesson lesson with him in D.C. that I mentioned, I hadn't yet even thought seriously about double lip, but he talked about it. He mentioned taking in a "thin membrane" over the top teeth, which is advice I've carried in my memory but could never really execute, or at least as far as I understand what a thin membrane of lip should be - it was too painful.
I'm doubly interested now in view of Tony's reprise of his 2006 post about symmetry. When Wright said that to me, I was still 4 or 5 years away from finally changing and I never really thought of the relationship between my upper and lower lips. Even when I switched, I took in what felt comfortable to produce the result I was after. Do you remember any more details of his approach as he taught it?
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-11-24 04:26
Attachment: Ginastera high bit mp3.mp3 (296k)
I played double lip until after my grade 8 exam in 1983, and can still swap between them with ease.
I pretty much agree with the comments made by Tony Pay (I was at CCM when Campione taught there but never spoke with him about double lip. My friend studied with him, and on her own initiative played double for about 6 months but in the end changed back to single. I only read his book many years later and found his comments edifying).
In "the old days" when I had a poor embouchure I used to notice a difference in tone quality, and would play double in practise sessions to correct flaws. This was very effective, and I've found it has also helped students to experiment with this a number of times over the years.
These days (I hope) I've improved my embouchure to something more ideal, and find the difference between the two much less noticeable. Like Mr Pay I've used double on historic instruments, and found it advantageous.
I don't personally have a problem with upper lip pain when playing double lip, but do find the instability of the instrument (even with a steeper angle) a bit irritating, this would really be my only reason for making single lip my choice.
So, long and short of it is that I would mainly use double lip embouchure as a teaching tool with select students.
As for using it in concerts, I sometimes switch to it in the middle of a piece, you're not going to believe this, but the last time was for the passage attached..... (I find it easier to voice the altissimo with double lip, the lack of fff is just me being cautious in rehearsal)
Post Edited (2020-11-24 12:22)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-11-24 05:08
I think the concept of practicing double and then applying the "feel" to single. It is possible to optimize single so you are using the advantageous aspects of double to improve your embouchure. When I played single I tried to play as some describe- single with a double lip concept. Many who observed me play often thought I was using double. One of the things that led me to move to double was an unevenness in my front teeth that made it easier to have my lip on the mouthpiece rather than the teeth.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2020-11-24 14:01
Does anyone use a double lip embouchure on bass clarinet?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-11-24 19:47
I do, for what little bass I play. I still find that the painful vibrations I feel in my upper teeth when they're resting directly on the mouthpiece, even with a patch, make DL more comfortable.
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-11-24 22:09
Once I made the switch to double I played everything that way-Eb, bass, saxes. It made more sense for me that way
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2020-11-25 05:55
As Ed says, players comfortable with double lip can use it on all the clarinets and sax. While many double-lip players may tend toward a demure, understated style, it is a myth that that embouchure will not support a large, loud, and aggressive sound if that is desired. Tenor sax great John Coltrane played double lip, and when I met James Carter a few years ago at a masters' session he told me he plays tenor and soprano double lip. Carter has one of the most rambunctious sound sets imaginable on the sax. He can scream, shout, bellow, weep, squeal, rant, testify, lament, wheeze, explode, slap-tongue, excoriate, yakety-sax, and execute multi-phonics at all dynamic levels and in all registers of the instrument, and his double-lip doesn't get in the way. Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qasXXzsDpPk
Post Edited (2020-11-25 06:05)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2020-11-25 23:35
I've started all my beginner students on double lip for the past handful of years. Nobody has had any issues with it, and it's made embouchure a matter of much less discussion in the first few years of study, much to the better. I do tell beginners about single lip embouchure as well, as I know that is what their band directors will instruct them in. I ask them to stick with double lip for the first months of study and then experiment later if they would like. Almost all stick with double lip, including for marching band.
I've used double lip as a tool for helping older students correct embouchure issues for far longer, almost always with positive results. The only exceptions were one or two with short top lips/long top teeth and we just used a different approach. I've also had a surprising number of older student come to lessons already playing double lip, an adaptation they made themselves as beginners not liking the feeling of the top teeth vibrating on the mouthpiece.
I grew up as a single lip player and that is still my primary approach, although I do use double lip regularly in my warm-ups and occasionally in performance. I would like to work up to having equal endurance with both and still may someday.
Anders
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-11-26 18:31
Unto those that achieve this shall verily be vouchsafed entrance to The Promised Land.
Tony
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Author: AB
Date: 2020-11-27 03:20
Seabreeze and Ed - thanks for that info. I had never thought to wonder how many Saxophonists (and/or doublers) used double lip.
As to the initial question - I'd say it isn't more popular because so many students start in classes rather than with private teachers (in the US anyway). And because marching is emphasized in so many programs. I personally was started on double lip but that was outside of school & with a LeRoy student. I never had the pedagogical conversation with him because I didn't know there was one there at that point! I have a whole lifetime worth of questions I wish I had asked- musical and otherwise. I played single lip to march and believe that subsequent teachers preferred that.... but I would routinely switch back... I can't remember if that was something encouraged or discouraged at this point... but when I started taking serious lessons later I would still alternate (at that point so I could practice longer.... I'd stick to double lip as long as I could). That teacher supported the choice - but also worked with the compromise others have mentioned of using the upper lip in a similar manner but NOT rolling under the teeth. I remember feeling very much out of the mainstream for a long time - it has been interesting to see so many people now advocating for double lip.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-11-29 14:53
Just to make it clear, I personally didn't advocate for double lip, but pointed out that (for me at least) it's not particularly "restrictive". The inclusion of the Ginastera excerpt (recoded a few years ago at rehearsal) was to point out that it need not be considered merely a tool for cantabile playing.
@Mr Pay, I was amused by your comment, and "get your point". But would you prefer we lied so as to convince people double lip was a ridiculous possibility? Would lying about it suit you better, a serious question?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-11-29 22:37
>> But would you prefer we lied so as to convince people double lip was a ridiculous possibility? Would lying about it suit you better, a serious question?>>
Absolutely not. But I'm surprised you even suggest that I might think that.
Double lip is clearly a totally viable method for those who can use it – such as yourself and very many other great clarinettists.
My quibble is only with the 'SPOZED' context that often seems to surround discussions of it here. So it's not its use but the halo above its user that I find disturbing.
You don't exemplify that.
Tony
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2020-12-01 16:22
Tony Pay is right. Double lip works well for those who can use it but it is no panacea.
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