 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-20 14:33
Especially those of you who have switched from more or less biting (jaw pressure) to non-biting, how did it affect your intonation?
I made that switch to full extent just about a year ago, and one effect on my intonation was like a teeter-totter with previously sharp/sharpish upper clarion and third register notes going flat while first register lower notes went up (at least some of them). High notes going down with less embouchure pressure wasn't a surprise, but didn't expect the lowest notes going up (the latter isn't a big problem, though for example the low e which previously was spot on with the correction key on my B-flat is now 7-10 cents sharp).
Another interesting effect has been that while the previously flat d#4-f#4 region remained as such, the corresponding second register notes (a#5-c6) became exactly as flat - note by note. Just increased lip pressure isn't enough for me to get these upper notes in tune, so from a#5 on I still need to engage also my jaw.
I don't see some moderate jaw pressure in the upper registers as too bad in itself (can't notice any harm to the tone there), though less changes of any kind between registers would of course be desirable - as well as to keep the more relaxed and effortless non-biting way of playing also in the high register.
These observations have led me to think about a re-constructed clarinet, for non-biting players (?). That is, with a re-tuning of the d#4-f4 interval by rising it 10-15 cents (in my case d#4 +10, e4 +15 and f4 +10 cents). Considering the amount of adjustment, I don't think that just a re-tuning of the existing tone holes would be sufficient, but already when they are drilled they would need to be placed higher up on the body. Thus my idea is that this way these notes could be played with exactly the same embouchure pressure in both registers - and with no biting.
What's your idea about such a re-constructed clarinet, and how about possible drawbacks? Two such ones that I've been thinking about are 1) possible undertoning on the notes in the second register (I've noticed such when playing experimentally with exactly the same embouchure pressure there as in the first register, and not caring about the intonation - but could this perhaps be addressed with adjusted voicing?), and 2) a re-positioning of these tone holes would most likely affect also the intonation in the third register - but would it be for the better or for the worse (as said, now I'm flat in that register, without some jaw pressure)? Maybe also a concern about the tone quality could be added, if these second register notes could be played in tune with no added embouchure pressure compared to the first register.
I should perhaps add that my clarinets are Reform Boehm, and thus maybe not behaving exactly as more typical French bore clarinets. However, when I tested some Buffet Tradition clarinets they actually behaved very similarly. The d#4-f4 region was more or less exactly as flat as on my clarinets (with some minor differences depending on the mouthpiece), and also the a#5-c6 was flat but not quite as much as in the first register (both with the same embouchure pressure).
I would also be interested about any other intonation issues possibly related to a non-biting embouchure, and how you tackled them.
Post Edited (2020-06-20 16:39)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-20 15:19
I play Buffet R13. My global pitch dropped precipitously (perhaps also caused as much by switch to Legere reeds at the time). This was correctable with a 4mm shorter barrel. I should add that my pitch has come back up about 2mm worth within the last year (going on five years of a "correct" embouchure).
For me, the base line note.....THE BASE LINE NOTE is open "G." It is easiest to judge where the core global tuning is with this note and everything else is based off of that.
You want your comfortable, stable, non-biting embouchure to be right in the center of your open "G." By that I mean that you can easily adjust up or down from there (slightly) if a pitch correction on the fly is necessary. Will your first space "F" be flat? Not really. If you mean that playing a good forte is tending flat.........the fix is to add the lowest side key.
From here I find consistent pitch throughout the chalumeau, clarion and most of the altissimo. The altissimo is a bit of a mixed bag. I have changed some fingerings tending to sharper fingerings and using more relaxation (the better of two evils....the other being the usual fingering and some "biting"). Some altissimo notes under some circumstances (leaps from far below) actually now work better with flatter fingerings!!!! And by that I mean is may be "on pitch" but just barely within context and yet the notes respond better (third ledger "E" above the staff comes to mind).
All in all though, any embouchure change should cause a total (global) change to the pitch of the horn. I think it may be possible your pitch irregularities are more a function of faulty adjustments that have become habitual under a "biting" regimen.
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-06-20 15:30)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-21 12:36
Paul, would you say that in your experience you didn't notice any significant changes in the internal pitch after your transition to a non-biting embouchure - and that the only change was in the global pitch?
As a specific example, according to Clark Fobes a well tuned R-13 would probably be about 5 cents flat on the first line e but about 5 cents sharp on the first ledger line B above the staff (https://www.clarkwfobes.com/pages/tuning-and-voicing-the-clarinet). This would of course vary depending on the player, mouthpiece, actual R-13 specimen and so on, but whatever this difference was in your case with your previous embouchure, was it exactly the same with your changed embouchure?
Or more generally, did you notice any narrowing of the "in-built" problem with wide twelfths on any clarinet, due to your embouchure change?
Every player is of course different, but in my case a transition from a biting to a non-biting embouchure had a much bigger impact on the internal tuning than I expected. All in all surely for the better, since for me a lowering of the high end notes (and thus a narrowing of the twelfths at least of the left hand notes) was most welcome.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-21 15:12
I would definitely say there was no significant change to internal pitch for me. The interesting affect for me was that I now make almost no adjustment for the top altissimo notes where before it took considerable effort to make the fifth ledger "C."
I don't want to be in a position to disagree with Clark Fobes (I love his mouthpieces!) but I prefer to respond to pitch in terms of tendencies rather than numerical values. And I never really had any issue with the first line "E" on any horn. At least it never occurred to me to be an issue whether during individual practice, rehearsal or performance. The first space "F" is a different story. Some clarinets such as the Uebel Advantage can almost seem high on that note (a reason to run out and buy one!) but usually a boisterous first space "F" always tended to bring back the "biter" in me. The sidekey correction for that note is a real winner.
So how did YOU get to a non-biting embouchure???
It took a jarring introduction to the correct approach to traditional German mouthpiece playing that made the difference for me. I tried a Viotto (about 1.00mm opening with a longer facing perhaps 18 or 19 mm) with a Vandoren White Master 2 1/2 strength reed. After a half hour session I put the clarinet down thinking, "well that was stupid and way too soft." But I realized later that night as I contemplated what I experienced that not only was the tone decent but I got a really good dynamic range, neither of which were typical for me of a set up that was too soft.
Since that moment almost five years ago I have been on a quest to reinvent my approach and now realize that clarinet playing is much MUCH easier than I had previously thought. No embouchure obsession here any more........AT ALL.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-22 13:17
My transition from a biter to a non-biter was gradual. The first step came with my Reform Boehm clarinets where the internal tuning calls for a more relaxed embouchure (at least in my experience French bore clarinets can be played in tune also with a more or less pinched embouchure, but not German/Reform Boehm).
Then I've been influenced a lot from what I've read on this forum, as well as the writings and some interviews with Brad Behn about his "more sound, less effort"-philosophy.
The final step came a year ago as a pupil on a summer course in Sweden. I wasn't explicitly told not to bite, but a lot of attention was given to an embouchure with horizontal rather than vertical pressure (that is, with the cheeks and the "corners of the mouth" pressing inwards instead of any jaw pressure at all).
I applied the jaw part by simply dropping it, which at the same time stretches and gives added firmness to the lower lip.
The benefits of non-biting have been numerous: Better tone, better internal tuning, better control and securer response at low dynamics, and less rising of the pitch at the beginning of a note after an inhaling (in some registers and with some mouthpieces actually no rising at all, which in itself is remarkable considering the effect on pitch by the oxygen/CO2-ratio).
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2020-06-22 16:16
Hi Micke, interesting post. If such a re-constructed clarinet would appear I will be the first to try one!
I switched to a non-biting embouchure when I bought my first set of RB Wurlitzers from 2004. The only way to tame the wide 12ths was with soft reeds (2.5) and a relaxed embouchure. I think you went through a similar process. I now know that there are better Wurlitzers with more moderate 12ths but at that moment I just adapted to those particular instruments. The loose embouchure brought me a lot: better tone, better endurance and my playing really improved in general.
I tried to apply the same embouchure on buffet clarinets: the sound improved but intonation did not work: You need a short barrel to get the throat notes in tune. But then the C5 and D5 in the lower clarion were much too high. The left hand clarion was still too low and the altissimo was horrible low. Clearly these instruments are not designed for that embouchure. The only clarinets that I had any success with are the older big bore Selmers: Centered Tone, Balanced Tone and Radio Improved. Quite a different sound though.
During the years I switched to some other Wurlitzer RB sets that were more moderately tuned and a few years ago I switched back to Buffet because of the sound. My embouchure have become a bit less extreme but I still use shorter barrels than 'normal'. My internal tuning is okay up to the left hand clarion. The altissismo is still too low. Oh, I hate these poly-cilindric bores But you can't have everything...
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2020-06-22 16:51
I tune my own clarinets to how I play. If I sell, the next owner will judge the merits of the clarinet by how it fits his/her playing. I doubt that there is a 'school' of less biting players where there would be a line of clarinets to fit their needs. So, get it tuned to your liking. We are all different.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-06-22 20:51
So many really great thoughts here on this post. Ken, you kind of hit the mark here. The bores are often different on each horn, even the same horns, such as 2, R13's sitting next to each other, both off on the factory line next to each other, can vary just a tad. Then we add the mouthpiece bore tapers and the barrel bore tapers. Then everyone should tune their horns, the notes based on your setup. Even a reed can change from one day to the next effecting your intonation and your sound quality. I think this is why a lot of people are going to Legere reeds as well as other plastics. We all want and demand consistency. An ideal situation once you have that perfect mouthpiece, a good embouchure, and tuned horns, to simple switch barrels or use these newer designed adjustable barrels which change the pitch by turning that center ring design. Then you can play in tune from 439 to about 442 with confidence.
The embouchure is kind of a never ending, lifetime of minor adjustments. Picking out and buying the right horns every 5 to 10 years is sometimes needed as our embouchure's change. I look forward to more consistent clarinets being made and as the years pass on wood clarinets will probably be replaced with new types of wood and plastic's. These plastic horn could actually become very special, offering a better sound better intonation, plus the ease of playing from the lowest notes to the highest without major embouchure adjustments such as biting to reach the wanted pitch. Change is slow but it's happening all around us.
As for pitch, such as the throat tones stated above, this is actually an easy adjustment to lower or raise the pitch a tad, by undercutting or adding material to the tone holes. Undercutting tone holes is not done as much these days and it should be to get rid of note issues and stuffiness. Also by adjusting the height of the keys, sometimes thinner pads, and cork pads can all work together helping to play these notes in tune and and without stuffiness. See your favorite repairman. Someone with a ton of experience tuning horns. There are not a lot of them, but they are around. Every horn in my opinion can be adjusted and played better in tune. It's such a thrill playing on really wonderful horns.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2020-06-23 04:30)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-22 22:13
For the record my R13 is a Greenline about 2 years old and seems to love an effortless embouchure.
Also for the record, I played circa 1984 Wurlitzer 100Cs incorrectly with a terrible biting embouchure in tune and professionally for twelve years. That is more of a confession than an endorsement.
My feeling about pitch is that for the most part it is how you approach each note. Some clarinets have faulty tuning but that is fortunately a small minority.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-23 07:26
You know I just had a thought.
I was just going through four different Buffet R13 barrels of slightly different configurations and noticing that there are some marked differences of tone color and tuning.
This makes me ask, are you sure you have a matching barrel and mouthpiece for your clarinet? Bore size and configurations (taper, non-taper, reverse taper) can make really big differences.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-23 14:11
Thank you all for your responses so far and thank you Jeroen for sharing your experiences. As you said, very similar to mine. Also my clarinets are Wurlitzer (from 2002) and the A had sharpness in the left hand clarion while the Bb was quite ok already from start - but the notes around e4 in the first register are still equally flat on both.
The wide twelfths issue on Wurlitzer RB clarinets was widely discussed here a couple of years ago, and among other things the need of a more relaxed embouchure were brought up - but I can't remember anyone mentioning the effects of a completely non-biting embouchure. As I wrote above, my issue now with zero jaw pressure is that I get drastically flat instead of sharp in the left hand clarion - and equally flat as in the first register. Thus the left hand twelfths themself are just perfect and the "only" problem is the flatness - and thus the need for me to still bite in the clarion (in the first register I use alternate fingerings, as also suggested by Paul for the d#).
So, thus also the above idea of a re-constructed clarinet for non-biters  - but judging from the responses here so far this need may not exist for French bore clarinets but only for Reform Boehm ones (and perhaps German).
Generally, when it comes to where clarinet manufacturers choose to drill the toneholes, I suppose that is at least to some extent based on patterns established already decades ago - which in turn were based on a collaborative process with certain players of those days. Further development has then of course continued and continues all the time - and still of course in close collaboration with certain players.
Thus if embouchure affects the internal tuning the dominant kind of embouchure among the players collaborating with the manufacturers would ultimately decide also where the tone holes are drilled. I doubt that the non-biting embouchure has been too common historically, and I'm not sure how globally dominant it is even today (as an example, in an online interview Brad Behn says that 9 out of 10 players in his opinion plays on reeds that are too hard - which for me indicates that they are also using too much embouchure pressure, even biting).
Jeroen, I'm curious about your current setup. Which Buffet model are you playing and with what mouthpiece - and what is your tuning level (440, 442 or 444)?
Paul, your question about a matching mouthpiece and barrel is most relevant - but I will return to that (must go practising now ).
Post Edited (2020-06-23 14:21)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-06-23 20:02
I've read through this entire thread, yet still am wondering (in the context of this thread): "What is a biting embouchure? What is a non-biting embouchure?"
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-23 21:56
The key component of overdoing the jaw pressure is when you must exert more effort for higher and higher notes. Chances are also high that those who "bite" must use some form of cushion between lower lip and lower teeth. And if they tried double lip, it was impossible because it felt as if the upper teeth would quickly protrude through the upper lip. The key problem is not comfort but rather that large skips between notes require guessing what torque is required for the higher note on the fly..........asking a near impossible solution.
Just some indication of what we are talking about.
I did want to add that the prescribed mouthpiece for Reform Boehm is a German system mouthpiece. Wurlitzer labels them as such on their website listing two options for most of their line: French, or German/Reform-Boehm.
I was wondering of Micke tried the Buffet (as stated in original post) with a different mouthpiece (Boehm) for that trial?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-06-24 00:15
It's not worth while talking to people like Paul Aviles, who have such a limited understanding; you're better off ignoring their posts entirely.
I've tried in the past to clarify the situation, but no longer. He, and they, are ineducable.
Richard Feynman put it rather well:Quote:
Ordinary fools are all right; you can talk to them, and try to help them out. But pompous fools - guys who are fools and are covering it all over and impressing people as to how wonderful they are with all this hocus-pocus - THAT, I CANNOT STAND!
An ordinary fool isn't a faker; an honest fool is all right. But a dishonest fool is terrible!
Richard Feynman
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-24 01:21
I welcome further enlightenment on the issue particularly regarding the European approach to embouchure. As I have stated in the past on this Board Bas DeJong of Holland pointed out that many Americans are overly obsessed with embouchure, much to their detriment. He further elaborated that from his "Germanic" perspective a clarinetist should basically just be able to put the clarinet in her/his mouth and blow. Using his mouthpiece (1.00mm opening and 23mm long facing) with a 2 1/2 strength Vandoren White Master Traditional reed I was able to retrain myself from the precipice of destructive, jaw centered playing.
Tony, I more than welcome, and in fact beg you to share what you do and what you teach your students with regard to embouchure.
I am certainly wiling to admit I still have it completely wrong, though I have gotten more acceptable results in the last five year than the previous forty.
..............Paul Aviles (faker, fool, clarinetist)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2020-06-24 02:47
Perhaps clarinetists have borrowed the term “biting” from oboists. The upper A, Bb and B can be slightly flat on many oboes. The reed maker fusses with the crow. . It is a balance between pitch stability(trying to avoid shortened octaves) and response. If the reed sags in the second octave then biting(includes voicing) is required. A little biting is acceptable but a whole concert full requires Herculean forces.
I am inclined to think that biting as it relates to the clarinet refers mostly to beginners as many times their reeds are not suitable for the entire clarinet range and they haven’t as yet developed good voicing skills.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2020-06-24 03:30
Micke, for a "non-biting" embouchure: stay with Wurlitzer. These instruments were designed for that. Your pieces are not the best: earlier and later series have better twelfths. If your left hand first register is too low, you should try shorter barrels first.
I think you are right with "the dominant kind of embouchure among the players collaborating with the manufacturers would ultimately decide also where the tone holes are drilled".
And that's maybe why French clarinets are worse for a non-biting embouchure. Typical french style is quite "pinchy"... (don't know if this is a real word)
As I said, better results with the old big bore Selmers. It is for a reason that these are still quite popular with jazz musicians. They can play them with lots of air and a loose embouchure and still play in tune.
Also better results with the Boosey & Hawkes 1010, they can't take as much air as Wurlitzers or old Selmers but they are clearly designed to play with a more relaxed embouchure. Typical British style is also not that "pinchy".
And of course student clarinets are better suited to a loose embouchure...
As I mentioned I switched back to Buffet for sound. For intonation I would have stayed with Wurlitzer. But I didn't find the Wurlizter sound very interesting. I play now on a Festival Bb and a R13 Vintage A. Mostly with a BD5 or B40 with moderate reeds (V12 #3.0). But sometimes I miss the Wurlitzers, especially when playing Mozart or when playing in the third register ;-)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-25 01:39
Fuzzy, I first saw the advice not to "bite" here, years ago. At first I wasn't sure if that was meant literally as no jaw pressure at all (the jaw with the lower front teeth pressing through the lower lip upwards against the upper teeth, thus creating a force against the reed bending it closer towards the mouthpiece facing) or just that excessive such pressure should be avoided.
Later I've concluded the previous and that's what I've finally adopted, since about a year ago. Actually I made a try already some years ago, after the same summer course which I attended also then. At that time I concentrated only on eliminating jaw pressure in favor of pure lip pressure and its effect to the tone, but didn't notice convincing improvements. Thus after a while I just drifted back to my previous embouchure (as I've told, quite relaxed but still with some jaw pressure).
What made a definite turning point for me last summer was when I asked one of the instructors at the course to play a clarion g (g5), start it after a breath from zero dynamics followed by a crescendo. I could hardly believe my eyes when the needle on the tuner stayed steady like glued, not with the slightest movement up or down. That was just impossible for me to accomplish with my embouchure, where I always got sharp after a breath and the pitch didn't stabilize until a moment later.
Afterwards I gave the non-biting embouchure another serious try, and this time applying also the "horizontal pressure" with my cheeks pressing inwards - as mentioned above. Quite soon I noticed also the other benefits mentioned - to the tone, intonation, control and response. Also of course a more relaxed and effortless playing experience, though not a goal in itself.
Thus my conclusion is that these benefits should not be attributed exclusively to the non-biting, but also to the "horizontal pressure". I'm not sure how the latter works, but my guess is that it has mostly to do with how it affects the inside of the mouth - either simply by reducing its volume (at least the opposite with bulging cheeks is largely discouraged, for it's harm to the tone) or how the shape is altered, or both.
Speaking about "biting" there is also a variant of it in the embouchure "school" where the jaw is kept fixed (thus not actively pressing upwards) but the whole clarinet is then pressed against the mouth by the r.h. thumb. The angle of the beak of the mouthpiece where the upper teeth contacts it thus diverts part of that force to a vertical pressure teeth to teeth. That way the mouthpiece effectively becomes "jammed" between the teeth, and while this approach probably allows for less vertical pressure than upright biting it's not what I consider as "non-biting".
Some physical signs of what I understand as biting are tooth marks on the mouthpiece beak and/or a sore inside of the lower lip where it meets the lower teeth. Double lip players I could hardly consider as "biters", regardless of the amount of contact between the inside of their lower lip and lower front teeth (I keep a gap there, but that is primarily for the flattening and stabilizing effect a stretched out chin has on my lower lip). As Paul already said, biting and playing double lip would just be too painful.
I wrote this since you asked, trying to clarify what I understand as "biting" and what got me to transfer from what I call a biter to a non-biter. However, I don't mean to say that this would necessarily lead to the same benefits for everyone. We are all different and what works for someone may not work for another. As I've learned from this thread, even the kind of clarinet bore we are playing may play a role - also considering what degree of embouchure pressure would suite one or another.
Post Edited (2020-06-25 02:07)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2020-06-25 10:05
I assumed any reference to biting meant a constant approach to embouchure not just a bit more pressure on a few notes that tend flat. The pitch tolerances with Buffet and Yamaha instruments for example are good enough so playing in tune is within the reach of most players of good skill. Generally speaking playing the clarinet with an extremely low pitch center approach(loose embouchure) gives a poor scale. Perhaps there is a way to not bite and at the same time keep the pitch in good relationship to the pitch ceiling but I don’t know what it is.
The main tip off that you are biting too much is if your embouchure is weak or hurting regularly after playing sessions.
As we progress through our playing career we experiment with altering the amount of mouthpiece in the mouth, different angles, different reeds, maybe even the so called fast and slow air speed approaches, different mouthpieces, double lip, but you can’t get around the property of the clarinet in regards to centering pitch. ie. If you center the pitch too low the scale of clarinet is adversely affected. I cannot see how no pressure/ no biting achieves a good scale. If it is possible on a mouthpiece of the closest facing that might be a solution but I think that will have limitations. Common tip openings can be played with moderate embouchure pressure/biting to achieve good results.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-25 13:05
Arnoldstang, I actually meant just what you said with biting as a constant element of ones embouchure - and that was also the case with my embouchure before I switched to non-biting. Before that I also was sceptical about how exclusive lip pressure could possibly maintain the desired pitch level and I thought that it would need tremendous "lip force".
However, I was surprised at how little actually is needed - but the reed strength must be chosen accordingly so that no brute force is needed to bend the reed against the mouthpiece facing. The more someone is biting, the softer the reed must be for a switch to a non-biting approach. In my case, and since I was only a "moderate" biter, I actually continued with more or less the same reed strength as before. According to US standards I play open mouthpieces, currently a Playnick Brahms with an 1,15mm opening/22mm long facing (the successor of the German PlayEasy B2). Most Vandoren V12/Rue Le Pic/V21's of strength 3,0 are suitable to that, some are too hard (and some #2.5 are suitable but others too soft).
Still, as stated earlier, I need to bite from the upper clarion upwards to stay in tune. At least in my case it would be just too exhausting for the lip muscles not to bite there, so I don't consider it as meaningful. The whole point why I started this thread was to discuss if a "re-constructed clarinet" could make it possible to play the whole second register with the same amount of embouchure pressure as in the first register (with the lips, not the jaw).
I still believe that on most instruments it's perfectly possible to play the entire scale in tune without biting, as I suppose double lip players are doing all the time.
Post Edited (2020-06-25 13:09)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-25 15:31
Just a small clarification to my response above to Arnoldstang, to avoid possible misunderstandings. When I wrote about "biting as a constant element of ones embouchure" I didn't mean a constant degree (or continuous same amount) of biting. Instead I meant the jaw pressure as beeing an integrated part of the embouchure, thus always present but of course varying in degree according to the actual need of pitch alteration - either it is from tone to tone or in different registers.
For anyone who wants to know more about a non-biting embouchure I would recommend the writings and online interviews with Brad Behn, about his "more sound, less effort"-philosophy - all available through his Website.
By the way, still one little bit strange benefit from my transition to a non-biting embouchure that I forgot to mention previously was it's effect on the sound of my A-clarinet. For 17 years I wasn't completely happy with it, compared to the sound of my B-flat - despite going through numerous mouthpiece/barrel/ligature/reed combos. Then all of a sudden, with my new embouchure it just came on par with the B-flat. Well, perhaps this just confirms that the Wurlitzer clarinets are indeed made for a non-biting embouchure .
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-06-25 17:54
Another comment. Biting is very common. Actually most players bite a bit. When people test my mouthpieces they must use some sort of guard, patch, between their teeth and the mouthpiece. Known as the beak. If there are bite marks from teeth I have to throw out the mouthpiece. Yes players often don't care if they chew up a new mouthpiece with their terrible embouchure. Yes too lazy to put on a patch.
The position of the patch to the mouthpiece is also important. Most often players put the patched right smack at the tip. Why? This isn't right. Use as little of a patch as you can, to cover your teeth only. If patches were made longer some players would place the patch all the way down barrel thinking they sound better! They might even put patches all over the bell. Also use as thin of a patch as you can. I've seen players use double and even triple layer patches on mouthpieces. Why? I guess people want to bite really hard. I don't know why players do this. Its wrong. Time for some lessons.
As I've said above, your clarinet setup is key, the right mouthpiece, the correct barrels and finally tuning the notes on your horn for proper tuning. This post is losing focus. Keep things simple. Fact - Some M series Vandoren mouthpieces tune flat in the upper registers, some Buffet's tune flat in the upper registers. So players bite hard to reach pitch. Most Vandoren M series mouthpieces matched with Buffet clarinets, R13's, start playing a shade flat. It's common for the pitch to drop to 437, so if the orchestra or band is tuned to 441 or 442, you are dead and you will bite to reach pitch.
As for most double lip players, their sounds tend to be a bit better than single lip players, sure there are 1000's of single lip players with decent sounds. I strongly feel you need a firm embouchure, not weak and flabby, that's too soft, and no biting to the point in which you leave teeth marks on the beak of the mouthpiece. As for some of the new mouthpieces out on the market, if you buy something with a tip open of 1.15mm's and up, you will find yourself biting. More open tips does not equal a bigger sound. In fact, often the opposite happens, a good mouthpiece PROJECTS the sound, even if the tip opening is only 1.02mm's. Don't buy these open mouthpieces. You won't ever have a good sound. With a good embouchure you should be able to play 4 or more hours a day, without lip pain. If you have sore lips after 20 minutes of playing find a teacher to help you and sell that useless mouthpiece. This includes the very advanced pro's. Even Eddie Daniels went from a tip opening of 1.10 to 1.01. Eddie was tired of working so hard. Stanley Drucker has a huge sound with a tip of 1.05, if I remember. It could be 1.06. So go back to basics if needed. Try playing on medium tip openings around 1.05 to 1.07, not 1.20 and bigger. Send a message to these dumb mouthpiece companies to stop making anything over about 1.15. It's killing your embouchure and you won't ever have a good sound. You won't be able to articulate fast. You will always have sore lips, clarinet playing will always be painful, not fun.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-06-25 19:56
Thanks to Micke and Paul for offering context to what biting/non-biting means in the context of this thread.
Tony - in searching for your earlier posts about embouchure, I ran across a reference to your "phasing in contention" article...but was unable to find it. Is it still available out there somewhere?
Thanks,
Fuzzy
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2020-06-25 21:24
Mark,
Yep! That's why it didn't show up! Hahaha! Sorry about that - thanks for correcting it for me and providing the link!
Fuzzy
[EDIT: In my defense, the typo was a direct copy/paste from the original thread, so I was unaware of the intended wording. No harm/insult was implied or intended.]
Post Edited (2020-06-25 21:31)
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2020-06-26 13:24
This topic resonates with me (sorry...)
I prefer the concepts "tense" and "relaxed" to (non)-biting, as this impacts the whole body not just the mouth, lips and teeth.
Although I am not formally trained, I think that a lot of the same techniques are well documented in the Alexander Technique and trace back to Alexander's own problems of loosing his voice when performing on stage.
Coincidentally, I too have been down the German/Reform Boehm path, in my case with Yamaha German Boehms. This was vital in learning to adopt relaxed playing.
I'm currently using a German Leitner & Kraus mouthpiece bored out for Peter Eaton Elites. Surprisingly, exactly the same fingerings apply to my Yamahas and Eatons. Mostly this comes down to using the long B/E little finger keys to raise the Bb, B, C and D above the stave (but not the C#). For D#/Eb, I add the little finger C/F key with either the RH middle finger or the RH first finger and B/F# key. For a sustained E above the stave. I use the first 3 RH fingers with the throat G# open. This combination of fingerings also helps equal the resonance of these notes.
Just some observations of a misspent youth trying to play the clarinet too hard.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-06-26 20:22
Reformed wrote:
> I prefer the concepts "tense" and "relaxed" to (non)-biting, as
> this impacts the whole body not just the mouth, lips and teeth.
>
But then you've changed the topic. The OP was specifically talking about pressure exerted by the lower jaw ("Especially those of you who have switched from more or less biting [jaw pressure] to non-biting...).
Karl
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2020-06-27 00:58
Tony Pay said something along the lines of
"It's not worth while talking to people like [redacted], who have such a limited understanding; you're better off ignoring their posts entirely."
to which I would reply,
"If you can't say something nice (or perhaps, constructive), don't say anything at all."
Tony: You should offer your knowledge to organizations like the ICA which, as I posted earlier, is hosting a pandemic workshop series this weekend. Perhaps you should reach out to them and see if you could be part of the next one. I wonder why you waste your time getting frustrated on this board.
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-06-27 03:13
Some 1 mentioned oboes, well in college I heard that an oboist was so intense that she bit her reed n2.
On the initial post, could u give a better estimate of just how much 'non biting' u're applying?
1 of the things that I haven't heard in depth is just how much of this in regards 2 the best or proper mouth piece, reed and barrel. If 1 can approximate these on any given setup, I could give a better answer.
I don't bite on my new R13 or C. I have an effortless great tone on C clarinet.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-06-27 17:23
EbClarinet, I would basically advice you to let your tuner guide you. That would be the simplest way to know when you have reached the appropriate amount of lip pressure.
Here are also some other basic suggestions, partly copied from my responses to other threads on this forum:
1) If you would like to try this "non-biting" approach you could deliberately keep your jaw and your lower teeth stretched downwards to ensure that there is some empty space between your lower lip and your lower teeth. This gap may not be crucial in itself but if you are used to some degree of biting maintaining this gap may prevent you from unconsciously falling back to old habits (as said, in my case I keep this gap all the time since how it helps forming my lower lip).
2) Then form your lips around your mouthpiece similarly as when you are whistling (or as when sucking through a thick straw, as a drawstring or rubber band around your mouthpiece, as when kissing - whatever analogy you prefer). What you strive for is to create a more or less even pressure around your mouthpiece, instead of just between your teeth.
3) When you form your lips this way you should also automatically get some "inward pressure" of your cheeks - but to double check you could take a glance at a mirror to confirm that your cheeks are at least somewhat bent or curved inwards.
When it comes to lip pressure substituting jaw pressure, don't overdo it but stay where you feel comfortable and where you don't get tired out too quickly. Try also a softer reed if blowing feels heavy and uncomfortable.
When I made my transition to this kind of embouchure, at first I got tired not so much from lip pressure but from the inward pressure of my cheeks. It actually took some months to build up the required strength and stamina, but now it comes just natural. The instructor on the course I told about actually said that his cheek muscles had grown in size, so I suppose he was using quite a lot of this kind of pressure!
As a last bit of advice I would suggest that you view all these different elements as variables rather than something more or less rigid. Beside pitch let also sound quality guide you when it comes to the amount of lip pressure, how far out you stretch your jaw and the amount of inward pressure of your cheeks. Allow also for possible variations from tone and register to another. And if you get flat in some region despite reasonable lip pressure, don't rule out even some jaw pressure - but use it only there, not as a general habit (if you can't avoid general flatness without biting I would suggest that you consider alterations to your gear - mouthpieces, barrels and clarinets).
Post Edited (2020-06-27 22:31)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-27 21:09
Antony Pay is the world's leading authority of the clarinet. I know this because the "Global Music Network Inc." says so.
He is also read in Mathematics at Cambridge University.
Antony Pay also had Simon Rattle read his treatise on Phrasing but was most grateful for the comments he received from a Professor of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University.
Mr. Pay also say that he wants the internet to be place where serious people can get serious answers (as lauded by fellow serious people) stating, "I admit to having an overall intention. But obviously, I don't post in order to promote MYSELF."
So if Tony Pay choses not to share his knowledge with the insignificant rabble of the internet we all need to be grateful that he is at least willing to take the time to put us all in our place.
.................Paul Aviles (one of the rabble)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-06-27 21:44
Paul Aviles wrote:
> So if Tony Pay choses not to share his knowledge with the
> insignificant rabble of the internet we all need to be grateful
> that he is at least willing to take the time to put us all in
> our place.
>
Paul, he has posted a number of times on the subject of embouchure and embouchure pressure. Do a search - using "Tony Pay embouchure" as a criterion, I got 9 pages of hits.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-27 23:23
Karl,
I mostly attempt to keep things civil for the sake of open discussion and in respect for everyone who wants to participate. The idea, I thought was for everyone/anyone to post queries and have a community of fellow musicians respond in kind within real time (beginners, intermediate level and Cambridge University grads alike).
If that is NOT the function of the clarinet bulletin board, the original poster here should have looked up the resources posted years ago by others (including Mr. Pay) and that would be the end of it.
If Mr. Pay is frustrated that his posts from years ago do not answer everyone's questions and wishes to participate in a "real time" discussion, he has the option to link to his earlier treatises (he nimbly illustrated his ability to do so just a few posts ago).
So if this is going to be just an archive of tutorials from only the most distinguished clarinets of the world, perhaps that should be made clear.
I thought we were a community of players all learning together and trying to help each other out, but I may be in error.
please advise
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2020-06-29 06:46
Thanks for that, Tony. I appreciate the insight into your communication style. Problem is, I don't respond well to "mean," and I have had a hard time picking up on what playfulness there may be in your posts. (To be sure, that's a limitation of Internet communication.)
I'm a newbie here on the board, so am not privy to all the nasty back history. I suppose I should just let that "justifiable rudeness" you speak of in that 2009 post you linked to slide when I see it here. Problem is, when I come across your attitude toward others, it makes me automatically discount any other (good) information you may be sharing.
Anyway, as the young kids of today say, "you do you." I'll do my best to ignore it.
Moderators: Sorry for derailing the thread.
Beth
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-06-29 20:52
Thank you, Beth.
Just to say that I don't think it's my attitude towards 'others' that gets me into trouble here; it's rather my attitude, in the end, to persistent muddying of waters.
As the listowner has written:Quote:
The disadvantage of our forum is that it is interactive and allows everybody to express themselves, even if they have no knowledge of the subject at hand and shouldn't.
Mark Charette 2019/09/22 ...and when several such people get together in the context of muddled ideas, the effect snowballs.
Paul seems to place a great deal of weight on my Cambridge mathematical background; in fact I got a poor degree because I spent so much time playing the clarinet, often with the now Emeritus Professor of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics he mentioned, who saw sense and buckled down to his PhD research having played the Berg violin concerto with the University Orchestra.
I wrote 'Phrasing in Contention' AGAINST Simon Rattle, in an attempt to show him what I thought (and still think) to be wrong with his conducting of Mozart – to little effect, unfortunately.
So I'm not intending to pull rank on Paul Aviles – just to have him think more carefully, and perhaps research a little, before he posts rubbish.
Anyway, here's a link to a more playful post, and also one to a whimsical piece, not sufficiently played that I recorded with Martin Roscoe a few years ago, and which we never issued.
It inhabits what you might think of as a less misanthropic atmosphere:-)
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-29 22:44
Tony,
That's really beautiful playing, thank you for posting.
The comment regarding Simon Rattle is kinda sorta what I'm talking about. Here we have your experience and sensibilities set against those of Mr. Rattle who was tolerated by the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra for twenty years. It comes down to the fact that there are different ways of looking at music with many being quite contrary to one another.
Some of my posts from a number of years ago were thoughts passed along to me from some of our best teachers on this side of the pond and tended toward metaphor rather than actually what happens in ..... breathing, embouchure etc. So though completely inaccurate, some of those metaphors were internalized successfully by several generations of younger and equally successful musicians. The point here is that those ideas may not work at all for some, but have been very helpful for others.
If the Clarinet Bulletin Board is to remain a community rather than just an archive of carefully filtered reference material, then each of us serves as a way for the others to learn, even if the lesson is, "I'm glad I don't do it THAT way!"
I also post very brief ideas of my own doing in hopes that the general concepts will receive questions that result in more detail ..........often that does not happen and those concepts I admit, even at best, often come off half baked.
Though I suppose my request will be accepted as gleefully as your "Phrasing" treatise was by Rattle, I would humbly suggest that you at least link us to BETTER solutions rather than succumb to the the temptation to just give in to derision. That would be to EVERYONE'S benefit in the long run.
..................Paul Aviles
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