 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: KaiLiau
Date: 2017-10-25 00:17
Attachment: YamahaBoreFamilies.JPG (92k)
I discovered this brouchure for Yamaha's Clarinets (in Japanese, for Japanese market) while replying the other thread about John Yeh:
https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download/brochure/2/865112/BCA1603.pdf
In page 3 (screenshot also attached), it describes the two families for Yamaha's (soprano) clarinets, SE and CS. Being an engineer while owning a Yamaha clarinet, I couldn't help but to share this. I know it is very technical.....
According to Google translate (and my own understanding, feel free to jump in if you can read Japanese or have more insights),
SE:
Soft and rich tone.
Concept is a warm, soft yet powerful sound.
The bore tapers are large.
Because few straight parts, it is a feature rich in width and tone. (not sure this is translated properly)
Tone holes are larger than CS series.
Bore taper is also spreading.
CS:
Clear and focused tone.
Outstanding performance, clear and bright tonal concept.
The inner bore and tapers are smaller.
Because the straight part is long, there is a straight core, realizing a projecting sound.
The inner diameter of the joint part connected to the bell is somewhat narrower than the SE series.
The resistance compared to SE will be slightly larger.
I am assuming the Ideal-G (available in Japan) is very similar to CSG in US, especially given the short barrels they both have. I suspect the SEVR and CSVR in US also share some specs with these SE and CS family clarinets.
(Being an engineer and IMO) Despite of the model names in the same or different markets, I think they must share some cores (such as bores designs, hence this SE and CS families) to save the manufacturing costs in tooling and labor. Majority of the sound and playing characteristics are probably built into these cores. The only differences between these models are probably wood, keywork (including plating), some of the designs that need to be hand finished (undercutting and padding?), and other cosmetic features.
Whether or not those differences (other than the cores) are significant enough to justify the premiums are up to the consumers. I suspect other clarinet manufacturers do this (sharing core designs among different models) as well. I know this is like saying Lexus ES is just a glorified Toyota Camry but to some people the additional features of the ES are worth paying for.
Post Edited (2017-10-27 18:14)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-10-25 06:04
KaiLiau - From talking with Yamaha sales force from Japan it is my understanding Japan gets the "New," models first. Then after they've been tested for a period of time the USA gets them. It could be 1 to 3 years later. So you are correct.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-10-27 18:04
Now I know why the YCL-450 plays so solidly and compactly ... it is in the same bore specification family as the CSVR! I knew I liked that instrument!
My 650 is similar to the SEVR and it's really good, and does kinda fit Yamaha's description of playing characteristics ...
Cool thing about the 450 is that you can get the bore lined with ABS plastic, which should make it ideal for harsh environments ...
Tom
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-27 18:49
Yamaha should offer the Duet+ lined top joint bores on their pro level clarinets as they do with their pro level oboes - the 400 series having the resin lined bore with integrally lined/bushed toneholes and the pro level ones with ebonite sleeved bores with inset tonehole bushes and maybe lined barrel bores like the Selmer 10G.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-12-17 07:24
The OP here was very instructive to me, and thought I would share a recent experience. My old Selmer clarinets are wonderful, but....old. I worry that I'm addicted to them and they are wearing out. I have experimented with several Leblanc models and they have not replaced my addiction to free-blowing, warm sounds. Before I bought the old Selmers I (like many) had a couple of R13s that were always too resistant for a sax-player like myself. As a technician, I work on Student and Intermediate Yamahas often and am always impressed by the keywork and intonation.
I got a bug to try out some professional level Yamahas...there are a few stores around that sell them. Liked some but the sticker shock was high.
So I began trolling "the auction site". Saw a lot of really beat up YCL-650s at affordable prices and some Customs at high resale prices. Noticed that there were several reputable shops in Japan selling used clarinets and were good at providing more pictures and educated assessments of the various ones. Some were actually listed for less than $1000.
A couple weeks ago, I pulled the trigger on a clarinet with the SE bore. Early model, the Yamaha support people (very helpful) had trouble figuring out when it was made as the serial numbers are unique to factories, not models, etc... After some back and forth and providing the auction images of logos, I got the reply "So it turns out your clarinet is actually a special order instrument by the music store Shimokura-gakki in Tokyo. It is a YCL-SE Custom manufactured in May 1992." Other than some Vitos, this is the newest clarinet I have ever owned.
I received it today. The case has a metal decal on it...the only English is the word SHIMIKURA, so I know Yamaha support got it right. While it's tarnished and a couple corks had fallen off, the wood is beautiful and un-marred, the keywork doesn't even look like a screwdriver has touched, the pads look like original with very faint impressions, and the case smells old. It plays wonderfully, with a big fat tone and perfect intonation (although a few notes have to be surgically fingered to get around missing corks); of the clarinets I own, it is most like a highly refined version of my Series 9 to play. Remarkably, it was $720 all in!!
This will get cleaned up a little and played before I decide what type of overhaul it deserves.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-17 10:49
The YCL-450 thoroughly impressed me - seems like it's much more sophisticated than the Yamaha German System horns that many beginners/amateurs use here (at least I'd prefer their Boehms any day!)
Now people likened the CSVR more to the R13 and the SEVR to the RC (or was it the other way round??), but what about the CSGIII? Does Yamaha offer any sort of info on that bore compared to their other two main concepts?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-12-17 23:35
Doesn't it seem odd that Yamaha includes the CSG instruments with the CS? The CSG has a short barrel and plays more Germanic than the other models (as does the Ideal G also), so why insn't it considered still a third type of Yamaha clarinet? I think most CSG players would feel that the CSG has unique qualities not shared in the other CS models and the SE. The old AE produced for some British clarinetists who wanted more of a large bore sounding instrument was still another type of Yamaha, but it has been discontinued.
Post Edited (2019-02-02 09:24)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2018-12-17 23:40
I swear I saw a Yamaha image that showed three different bores, with the CSG being separate, on Facebook. In another thread like this I mentioned it and no one else had seen it. I’ve searched and never found the image that I recall.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-12-18 00:27
Attachment: Yamaha_Custom_Bores.JPG (87k)
I have attached a "Janglish" translation of Kai's image. It shows the distinction of two bore designs.
My understanding of the CSG is that they shortened the barrel to move the connection discontinuity farther from the register hole as an aid in tweaking the response and intonation of the throat tones...heard this at a seminar a number of years back.
I did find the following online at the USA Yamaha site, but no detail:
"New bore design
The YCL-CSG features a newly improved bore design. With this bore design, we have found the sound to be warmer with a larger spectrum of tone colors and shadings. The player will also notice better flexibility and improved intonation."
Post Edited (2018-12-18 00:55)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-18 01:31
I've heard over the years that the "short barrel/long top joint" was a better system for tuning. I certainly was able to tune my Wurlitzer 100Cs by using some fairly outlandish barrel pulling and would have agreed with this premise. However, I more recently had the chance to try a German system Uebel (their's is a lower quality Oehler system; not on par with the recent Boehms they export) and the tuning got really out of whack much quicker.....the short barrel did not help. I also played CSGs for thirteen years and never really found the tuning of their short barrel design any more or less effective than that of the SEV which I had played some years before.
I don't know how obvious it is in the printed description in these diagrams (I couldn't make much of the translation), but the lower joint features a "German bore" taper in that it flares a bit later down the bore than a Boehm. Again, I never picked up a distinct advantage (or unique sound per se) over their SEV. The CSG just plays a bit more covered than the SEV cousin.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-12-18 01:32
Regarding the AE, I found an old article by Nick Cox, who worked with Yahama to develop the instrument:
"The YCL AE Clarinet has a larger bore with a longer taper than for instance a Buffet R13. With its relatively small tone holes and tone hole shaping, the AE model is more resistant than the SE or CS models but with the requisite air pressure, the AE's pure and focussed sound will project powerfully. The sound character is well balanced throughout the different registers. A long bell adds a distinctive darkness to the tonal blend."
But despite this, and seabreeze's characterisation of the AE as "more of a large bore instrument, it isn't really a large bore. I measured an AE Bb and got 15.15mm and 14.69mm at top and bottom of upper joint. So the minimum dimension is basically identical to a Buffet, even if the diameter is larger at the top.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-12-18 02:19
I believe Mr. Cox said something to the effect that he wanted the sound and feel of a larger bore instrument regardless of the actual measurements. Certainly most people who tried the AE did get the impression from its playing characteristics that it had a larger bore and felt distinctly different from any other Yamaha clarinet. Actual measurements don't lie, though, and it is interesting to hear what they were.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-12-18 03:31
Yamaha ALWAYS tests out horns before the USA gets them. I think I've said this before and I'm glad, because when the horns get to the USA there isn't much wrong with them. I've also said that you don't have to play test 15 horns to find a good one. They all play really well and once you buy one you can perform a concert with it that night. No leaks, no bore adjustments, just maybe a barrel adjustment depending on the mouthpiece you are using.
To get a full sound I like something around a 1.05mm tip opening or so. Depends on the facing length.
So be patient and at the NAMM Convention in January usually you will see something new come out.
I actually hope it's a smaller bore. Not a larger bore. A smaller bored horn might help with bringing the pitch up to 441 or so and get that that old 1960's sound back. But my guess is they won't.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-12-18 08:36
I measured the SE (1992 Custom YCL-853ii).
The barrel has a Moennig taper:
Top - 14.94mm
Bot - 14.71mm
...the profile is a straight line
The upper joint is
Top 15.1mm
Bot 14.86mm
...and the top of the lower joint is
15.1mm....note that there is a step at the middle joint
The clarinet plays exactly at 440 when fully warmed up, with very good intonation and strong altissimo.
The throat notes are very strong and even as well.
EDIT: It actually comes up to about 441 when fully warmed up, blowing hard. Can squeeze it to 442. The barrel design is exactly a 66mm Moennig taper (based on my measurements of a Buffet and an Accubore Moennig); my 65 Accubore (Accubore M65) tunes at about 442 and plays with similar intonation.
Post Edited (2019-02-02 04:53)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-18 12:30
So the recent SE/CS series clarinets tune to A=440Hz? Bummer. Is there a way to bring them up to 442 (barrel or mpc) without messing with the tuning?
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2019-02-02 04:57
K...
See my note above, also, I have attached an English-translated version of an older Yamaha clarinet catalog from Japan that describes the differences.
The 'V' seems to refer to a widened region near the top of the bell
The SE is also the bore used in the 650
The CS is the bore in the 450 and the 250 (without the top tonehole taper)
The CSG designation is for the short barrel design
The Artist includes a LH pinky Eb/Ab key and fancy aesthetics, but otherwise the same (except the V version with the modified bell)
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2019-02-02 05:04
Attachment: BCA1810_clarinets.ja.en.compressed_1-11.pdf (1959k)
K...
See my note above, also, I have attached an English-translated version of an older Yamaha clarinet catalog from Japan that describes the differences.
The 'V' seems to refer to a widened region near the top of the bell
The SE is also the bore used in the 650
The CS is the bore in the 450 and the 250 (without the top tonehole taper)
The CSG designation is for the short barrel design
The Artist includes a LH pinky Eb/Ab key and fancy aesthetics, but otherwise the same (except the V version with the modified bell)
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Author: jack
Date: 2019-02-02 09:46
A heard a Yamaha artist at the 2018 Fest in Orlando and just loved the sound. I inquired and learned that the model he used was an SEV Master and has only been sold in Japan. Long story short, with the help of the wonderful Yamaha people in Buena Park, CA, I was able to acquire an excellent Yamaha Bb SEV Master clarinet. For me anyway, it is the best current model clarinet of any make that is on the market. (Of course, my opinion only and with the possible exception of an American bore Rossi). Subsequently I was able to acquire a second used one which serendipitously happened to be the very next serial number.
My understanding is that the SEV Master is a particularly large bore instrument. Would be interested in hearing any further details on the design or history of the SEV Master model clarinet.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-02-02 18:27
Jack,
Do you recall the name of the clarinetist who was playing this model?
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Author: jack
Date: 2019-02-03 06:41
I tried to find a schedule of performances from the 2017 Fest in Orlando, but could not find. The guy was at least 6 feet tall and sort of slender. He played Artie Shaw's Clarinet Concerto with a very good wind orchestra that I think was from Floriday (but not positive). He said he used Vandoren 7JB mouthpiece. This mouthpiece by the way is probably the most open mouthpiece ever made. Amazing that he could tame it. In any case I just really liked the tone and sound he had.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2019-02-03 07:07
Thanks, that would be Jim Snyder. He plays regularly with the Reformation Jazz Band and is the clarinet columnist with Halftime Magazine.
Post Edited (2019-02-03 07:09)
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The Clarinet Pages
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