 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-08-26 01:46
I spoke with someone very prominent within Yamaha, and that is an understatement. He said that they are also releasing the VR, VR Atelier, VR Artist or Master to their professional line that are horns which are "after" CS/CE. I interpret that to mean that these are instruments which are above the CSVR and SEVR in the Yamaha Pro Line Hierarchy. WOW, especially to the many of us who have already purchased CSVRs and SEVRs with no opportunity to try out these models. He did imply that you can try them at Yamaha's Atelier Store in New York.
Personally, I would be very upset if these instruments are a notch above the CSVRs and SEVRs. And from what I have read since I didn't make the convention, these horns were not shown in Orlando. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) I asked him if Yamaha will be providing printed brochures or online information pertaining to these clarinets. I just received this information within the past half hour so I have not had time to check online. If any of you out there have any info can you share it with us, especially if you have a link.
All of this took me completely by surprise. When I spoke with John Yeh several months ago about the CSVRs (he plays these) and the SEVRs he knew nothing about more "advanced" models. I guess nothing should surprise us any more. And I would not be surprised that no one at Yamaha America would be able to provide to any information. THIS INFORMATION CAME FROM AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WOULD MAKE THIS STATEMENT ONLY IF IT WAS 100% ACCURATE. Hawaii is too far from NY to make a visit to check out these clarinets. I would guess people like Bob Bernardo would know what person I am referring to who has become a friend and I have heard about his prodigious skills for decades by the man who first
hired him.
Any reaction?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-08-26 01:59
Those new models were not shown at the ICA. Well, I guess you can't stop progress. Let's try them all, even if we can only afford to buy one. Any idea of what the VR stands for? I wonder if any of these will appear at the Texas Bandmaster's event in San Antonio in February? It would be nice if Yamaha would send samples out to regional locations.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-08-26 04:08
Quote:
WOW, especially to the many of us who have already purchased CSVRs and SEVRs with no opportunity to try out these models...Personally, I would be very upset if these instruments are a notch above the CSVRs and SEVRs...All of this took me completely by surprise.
I'm confused why you think Yamaha owes you something? Ever time a new model of anything comes to market, someone bought the "top model" just a day before hand. You don't like buying a clarinet sight-unseen -- don't buy a Yamaha, or a Rossi, Wurlitzer, S&S.
What's the deal?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2017-08-26 04:17
This seems to be a case of "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence". No matter what excellent quality Clarinet (Oboe/Flute/Bassoon/Saxophone) you already own the next latest model must be 'better'
Skyfacer
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Author: gwie
Date: 2017-08-26 04:17
Well, from a marketing perspective, I think it makes sense. The CSVR goes head-to-head with the R-13, and the SEVR the RC. Buffet is the juggernaut in the market, and the standard by which the others are measured.
Above that, Yamaha really only has the CSG at the moment to compete with Buffet's Festival, Prestige, Vintage, and Traditional models. Personally I really like the CSG but it's not everyone's cup of tea, especially if they've been on R-13's their whole lives. If Yamaha wants to get into that market for the $4000-$5500 "premium" clarinet line they need to have fancier versions of their standard line with some of the extras like metal tenon caps, left-hand Eb lever, low F correction hardware, and cosmetics to match (because people are slaves to fashion).
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-08-26 04:55
Newer isn't always better. I have a Selmer super action 80 series I baritone sax made circa 1983(n 334xxx). It allegedly has a mark VI body with super action 80 keyword. I tried numerous baritones and still like my super 80 series I the best.
Post Edited (2017-08-26 05:19)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-08-26 07:03
Agree with gwie. Walking up the price ladder is the natural business decision, given the market and their success with the current product line. They're in business to make money, and giving people who already have their instruments a reason to buy more of their instruments is part of that. Be interesting to see what people say when they get to try them.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2017-08-26 07:07
Currently, I think Yamahas current top-of-the-line is the SE Artist, which has gold rings and posts, as well as the low E/F correction key.
FWIW, I have a 10-year old CSG and still prefer that to the CSVR, but I would love to try an SEVR or SE Artist. It does seem really hard to find these models to test, even with the Yamaha Atelier just up the road in Buena Park CA. It would be even more frustrating if there are LOTS of models we can't try.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2017-08-26 07:32
I'm confused as to why current CSVR and SEVR owners would feel slighted about their instruments no longer representing the top of the Yamaha line--this, before even giving the VR series a proper audition. As we've seen with Buffet, a higher-end instrument can easily turn out to NOT be the best choice for a given musician.
Now, if Yamaha would just introduce affordable E-flat and A clarinets....
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-08-26 08:33
>> I would be very upset if these instruments are a notch above the CSVRs and SEVRs. <<
Better to also avoid cars, phones, cameras, or just about anything with electronics, where new models with very significant real improvements come out much more often.
A new model rated above doesn't mean much in a clarinet anyway. Many very good players don't use the "top" model even though they easily could.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-08-26 12:23
Seabreeze I knew what it represented at one time but I had a brain freeze. Yamaha puts out multiple models that never reach the United States for one reason or another or maybe for no reason. The following professional models were from a Yamaha clarinet catalog I picked up at their flagship Ginza store in 2006. I do not know which of these even made it to Europe. The following are all numbering for just the Bb version of that particular model. It'd be interesting if any of you have any of the listed models.
1. YCL-950 Ideal(ringless bell)
2. YCL-SEVmaster
3. SE-V YCL-853IIV
4.SE YCL-853II
5. YCL-CSVmaster
6. CS-V YCL-852IIV
7.CS YCL-852II
8. CX YCL-851II
AND they also offer a Reform Boehm and two different Oehler system clarinets.
I cannot read kanji (the Japanese characters) so I'm pretty much clueless. But the single and double cases that come with CSVRs and SEVRs are shown. I contacted Yamaha for years and they always said it was not available in the US.
So there may be even more 2017 Yamaha models that are currently available only in Japan. I have no idea; it's all just too confusing after awhile.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2017-08-27 00:11
Definitely, Yamaha has products in their Japan domestic market that won't appear globally, and I agree that having too many models out here in the US leads to confusion and dilution of the brand name.
If I were responsible for product placement, I'd probably not sell the CSG in the US at all; it's not that it isn't a fantastic clarinet (I played a set for the past ten years), but it's sufficiently different enough from the mainstream that people just aren't willing to give it a chance.
I would go all out on the standard CSVR (with silver or Hamilton keys), and a CSVR "Artist Model" with the metal tenon caps, pink-gold plated posts with silver-plated keys or all-Hamilton, left hand Eb lever, and low F correction mechanism, and cosmetics that make for a "wow factor."
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-08-27 00:53
The Yamaha line of clarinets seems confusing to me, but I do not know of anywhere in the Los Angeles area where one could be tried. The Buena Park facility appears to be not available to the public plus it's a long drive for me. The Buffet clarinets have been quite accessible here but I would have tried Yamahas if I could have.
I own one related clarinet, labelled Japanese Musical Instrument Company in Japanese characters, the company that Yamaha derived from. Since it has a "donut" key with fork Eb/Bb, it must be from about 1910. That company also made propellers and assemblies for the "Zero" aircraft of WWII, with their plants bombed out in 1945 near the end of the war. Then it became called Yamaha from the original owner.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2017-08-27 08:52
Visit this page and enter your zip code to find a local authorized Yamaha dealer:
https://www.yamaha.com/paragon/dealerlocator/
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-08-27 21:33
Too bad you can't just download new firmware for your clarinet, load, and then you'd have the latest model.
SDC ... Software Defined Clarinet ...
Tom
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2017-08-27 22:59
I played the SE artist recently in NYC right before clarinet fest. Except for the low f correction, It's playing characteristics were identical to the SEVR, which I own. It had gold plated posts and it had the word "Artist" on it. If people want it you got to build it. So much of making a great instrument is being able to SELL great instruments.
A few years back a company release 3 model clarinets, they were incredibly similar except for the price points. They were retailing at $1800, 3200, and $5700, I played all three, there were not a significant differences in performance. Needless to say the $5700 model out sold the other two models. But in the USA people perceive more ecpensive as being "the best" and we all have to have the Best.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-08-28 01:18
TomS,
"Too bad you can't just download new firmware for your clarinet, load, and then you'd have the latest model.
SDC ... Software Defined Clarinet ..."
The future is CaaS: Clarinets as a Service.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-08-29 01:35
I wouldn't be upset at all with a new pro line. I play on the CSVR's. They are fine. I will stay with them. Don't plan on changing. These work, the price is great. The sound quality is excellent.
If they are really GREAT I may take a look. But the CSVR's are hard to beat! As I've said before the A clarinet is the best A clarinet I've ever played. It feels like a Bb. Same resistance.
If they made the bores just a shade smaller I may be very interested to the point of getting one. I want companies to make smaller bored horns.
Lets face it, Yamaha has a lot of money for Research and Development. We should expect great things from this company.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-08-29 11:15
Yamaha dealers are not hard to find, but they often don't carry the upper level clarinets, probably because of the high cost of inventory stocks. Sam Ash carries the intermediate model but will order out the more expensive models by request.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-08-30 02:21
Bob, I agree that Yamaha has a lot of money to do R&D but they are much more likely to implement change when they see and hear a tangible improvement to a particular model or entire product line. I remember many years ago during a lesson with David Shifrin in which they came in and gave him a clarinet that they had asked for feedback. They are not afraid to make changes so something must have happened in their low C bass clarinet total redo. I sense that they have forced both Buffet and Seller to rethink everything and as a result we have seen a whole flood of new models hitting the market as their response, for better or for worse. They actually struck fear into the biggest long time names in the industry.
However, Wes, all of this has caused even the larger dealers a total nightmare. There is no store that I can think of that can afford to carry every model of clarinet, running from entry level horns to their "state of the art" models. Therefore, most people are like myself, we have to "special order" these super expensive instruments and put down a depost and if we don't like it, probably pay a restocking fee and return shipping charges.
Going way back to Tobin's comment it is a big deal in the sense that I would like the opportunity to try out these newer models. Like Bob I own a set of CSVRs and SEVRs and really like them but if one of these flagship models fit my way of playing more to my liking I would sell both sets and buy the "newer" set and not look back. Why do you think people buy different models of cars that are made by the same manufacturer? Maybe they can now afford it but more likely they just like this newer model.
What do we take out of all this? A young clarinetist who's far wiser than his actual age told me the following: Robert, I cannot afford to buy new equipment so I don't even try new instruments. I do my best to get 100% out what I have." WOW. Hats off to that young man and I hope he has a very successful career.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2017-08-30 02:33
Please take a xanax and calm down. Yamaha produces many excellent clarinets. Let's just be thankful for that.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-08-30 02:51
RLarm, Yes, the young sometimes speak wisdom. If you've got talent, drive, ambition, great practice habits, and keep your eyes and ears open, you can learn to play everything up to the Nielsen Concerto even on a decent wooden Leblanc Bliss or Serenade clarinet if you have to. The more music you can actually play, the better equipped you are to know just exactly what you need to look for in a more expensive instrument. Money won't buy you that; only experience, practice, education, and time will.
Post Edited (2017-08-30 08:41)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-08-31 06:26
Quote:
Going way back to Tobin's comment it is a big deal in the sense that I would like the opportunity to try out these newer models.
Then spend the money to go try them in Japan, or be patient like everyone else has to be. It's not Yamaha's problem that you have issues with anticipation, but not deep enough pockets to indulge it.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2017-08-31 06:28)
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2017-08-31 08:56
They will always need to introduce "better" models.. So that people have something to buy...
It is the way of the world sadly...
There always needs to be something you can upgrade too...
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2017-09-01 14:55
There are no "super advanced models", there is no "secret sauce" Yamaha does what every major manufacturer does. They develop an idea and try to perfect it and then they try to sell it. Yamaha very recently came out with the SEVR, I have yet to see it readily availible in stores. I haven't seen any of the CSVRs at the Music and Arts center that I teach in since the "horns of plenty" event where the 5 that were in the system sold. So I'm hoping they don't have more models than that. From what I've seen it's just the accessory package and trim options.
Granted every instrument manufacturer would love to sell instruments every time Apple upgrades thier operating systems. But what can they really change? What is "Better", in the world of manufacturing what sells the most is better. Let's change the wood, that will be better, that doesn't seem to be working out too great. "Artists involve in the design of this instrument decided that un-plated posts had superior sound", then let's release an up grade instrument with gold plated posts. Maybe these things are different but the market place hasn't born them out to be "better" yet.
I don't think I ever had a clarinet that "fits" the way I play, I adapt to it.Thats why I might like playing a 1932 metal Selmer and you might hate it. I figure out what that horn needs to sound the way I want it to and I give it that. It probabaly sounds totally "different" then my Yamahas and different doesn't mean better.
This isn't. "Yamaha clarinet madness". This is "Clarinetist madness" we spend way too much time on the parts of the clarinet that doen't vibrate. 98% of the time when I hear someone who isn't sounding all that great it's usually a reed that is not matched to the mouthpiece.
To Puwalski
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2017-09-04 02:00
So you are saying Yamaha might release very high end horns "above" their current lineup? I can't say I understand the issue here.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-09-04 07:39
Sean Perrin -- that's not the problem. The problem is that Yamaha will release the clarinets and Rlarm won't be able to try them easily.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2017-09-04 14:57
Having had all the "high end" instruments that one maker currently makes, And having the "high end " instruments from a boutique maker, I can make this statement with clarity and honesty. Price point doen't determine quality or playability. In some cases it did make a difference in "built" quality. My Buffet Divine was a much better sealing instrument the the R-13 prestige that I bought around the same time.
Years ago I did an experiment, I had just purchased a magnaelic, that's a device many good repairmen use to determine the seal of the pads in Woodwind instruments. NASA uses this instrument to determine and confirm that space suits are "air tight". I took this instrument to Washington music, a store near me that usually has a lot of stock, and I pulled 10 clarinets down to try. I measured the seal all ten instruments, top and Boston joints then both joints together, I noted each instruments score in my note book from "best sealing" to the "sealing". I didn't mark the instruments in any manor. I then proceeded to play test all the instruments. After about. 2 hours of playing, I had pretty much rated all the instrument. The top 2 instrumets that I liked were the two highest score with the magnehilic. Now that was a surprise, the instruments that I through played the best, had. The best seal. I learned something that day, when I try an instrument, I'm really assessing the condition of the instrument. Who is to say that the instrument on the bottom of my magnehelic test really wasn't the best instrument once it had perfect sealing pads.
Here is the other thing I learned, I don't think any clarinetist from any super orchestra or any "consultant" regardless of the how tight they are with the force would be able to hear that clarinet #10 on my magnehelic test was the "best" instrument after it would have had some pad work. If you buy 10 of the same clarinets make all of them seal the same, then you can make a informed evaluation.
So I'm at a loss to figure out what everybody thinks they're getting when they spend $5K+ on Ulimate version of the "Same" instrument. As good as the Yamahas that I''m playing are, THEY DONT PLAY THEMSELVES! I will say this out of any of the clarinets I've played over all the years They are the easiest instruments I've ever played.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-09-04 15:53
Amen price doesn't equal quality. I paid $8600 for a Rampone and cazzani low Bb R1 jazz baritone sax in 2008. I wanted a low Bb baritone to go with my selmer super action 80 series I low A baritone. I had to put $400 into it to have pads deal properly . I play it now and again but prefer the Selmer. You eouid think for that kind of money it would be great. My Yamaha 20 and 650 soprano clarinets and my 221II and 622 II bas clarinets all play great and had great build quality.
Post Edited (2017-09-04 15:55)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2021-01-08 14:13
Yamaha has squarly fought its way into a European market whose long standing instrument manufacturers tend to win our confidence . They also manufacture ALL the popular instruments which goes somewhat against our tendency to believe that specialization is the key to quality . To do this means that study, innovation and competitive pricing , together with a tendency to frequently be upgrading is no doubt the recipe of their well earned success .
None the less , if they come out with a new model that's presumed to be better , then one wants to know why . Could be it just has more bling .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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