 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-20 00:45
We'll leave Legere's out of this post as they're synthetics.
Presume all higher end cane reed manufactures cut their reeds to within a human hair's thickness tolerance of accuracy.
That may not be true, but it's Vandoren's claim, and they're the guys we seem to get frustrated with, justified or not.
So why do many people report a greater number of decent reeds in a box of Steuers, Arias, Leuthners, and Pilgerstofers than one of the Vandoren brands?
Is it we tend to hear more from the dissatisfied than the content?
Is it that more pros buy these non Vandoren brands and this correlates with greater expectation on their part that said reeds will need to be worked on?
Is it that some of the people who buy these other non-Vandoren brands are less likely to voice their opinions on this board, and thus the finding here have skew?
Is conformational bias at play?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias
That would suggest us endorsing the Vandoren brand we've paid for. Although it would also suggest us endorsing the others guy's product we paid for as well.
Is it anchoring? Our first pro model being Vandoren to which we assign standards that don't fully correlate with results?
Is it Apophenia: seeing patterns in random data because we wish to pick on the big guy (Vandoren?)
Is if Framing: i.e. following the social construct within our clarinet world that makes "Vandoren trashing" par for the course?
Is it the Halo effect and that we see the non Vandoren makers as the underdogs such that our like for their "maverickness" influences our like of their reeds?
Is it Self serving bias: we need to feel we have a choice against the big Vandoren monopsonist. Praising other brands feeds that...?
If it is reed making equipment..certainly Vandoren has access to some of the best?
Is it multifactorial, or a product of things not mentioned?
Is it illusionary?
Or is it............at least in part..........TRUE......that the other manufactures really do have a nack for picking more consistent and good cane for reed making?
We may never truly know.
Post Edited (2017-07-20 00:46)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-20 00:59
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> So why do many people report a greater number of decent reeds
> in a box of Steuers, Arias, Leuthners, and Pilgerstofers than
> one of the Vandoren brands?
> ...
> Is if Framing: i.e. following the social construct within our
> clarinet world that makes "Vandoren trashing" par for the
> course?
My gut reaction is that it's a combination of your item "Framing" and differences in reed design. I personally haven't played a VD Traditional, V.12 or a V21 for years that I like without major adjustments. I don't think it's because the cane those two models are cut from is bad or inferior. I just don't like the result I get with those profiles.
I do like Steuers and Pilgerstorfers *on my setup* and haven't tried Leuthners. Arias feel very good, but my mouthpiece is between strengths and I would have to make a facing change for them to play really well. I think that all those reeds are cut to different profiles from V.12, V21 or VD Traditional. Is the cane different? I don't know, but for me the difference is not random or inconsistent enough to look farther than the profile cut into each of those models.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-20 01:12
Thanks Karl.
I should report my own biases. I'm trying or have tried all these brands. I'm by no means anti-Vandoren reeds. And/but I expect that all reeds require adjustment.
The notion of "it should play just right," for me at least, is as far fetched as the idea that my combustion engine lawnmower should never require servicing from one winter to the next.
I had not accounted for more play friendly cuts possibly entering into the equation.
Perhaps Karl you should take to your reed profile measuring interests of a couple of posts back and tell us if correlation exists between certain types of cuts and predictably/good playing. (That is if you're interested.)
I wonder, legally and otherwise, if manufactures do or can copy [aspects of] a competitor's profile in their design.
Was it Mr. Bernardo that reported someone at the helm of Steuer cuts as a one time long tenured ex employee of Vandoren???
I don't think (I could be wrong) that manufacturer's patent (as opposed to trademark) reed profiles. And even still, if they do, there's a lot of similarity in how reeds need to be made when it comes to profile. I say this because it seems like fine lines (metaphor, not literal) would exist between copying someone else's designs, and two designs merely having similarity with one another.
Post Edited (2017-07-20 01:26)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-20 02:01
Bob Bernardo could write much more about differences in profiles and the patentability of reed designs, certainly, than I can. I just don't know. But I do know that the models I like give *me* results (given my equipment and the response and sound characteristics I prefer) that are closer (require less adjustment or less drastic adjustment) to what I want a reed to feel and sound like *on a consistent basis.*
This is, of course, as you suggest, at the heart of my interest in measuring reeds. I just don't think the tools I have available are reliable enough to say anything meaningful. And the time it takes to make individual point-by-point measurements with those tools on enough reeds to reach any kind of general conclusions is, to me, prohibitive. Life is too short. Hence my interest in something that would measure an entire reed in one computer-assisted scan (unfortunately, I'd also like it to be affordable).
Deciding among competing cane reed models can certainly be done empirically - you just have to invest in enough different ones to base a decision on. I've side-stepped most of these issues by adopting Legere as my normal reed source. It isn't that I find synthetic reeds a perfect substitute for cane, but they eliminate a lot of the inconsistency that has to be factored in with cane use.
Karl
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-07-20 03:11
The Steuer reeds are made by Marc Charpentier, who once made reeds for Vandorens. Refer to the website:
https://steuerwoodwindreeds.com/clarinet/
As mentioned by someone else, Bob Bernardo, the US distributor of the Steuer reeds, can probably tell you exactly what makes the Vandoren reeds pale in comparison to the Steuer reeds. My own experience is that the Steuer Exclusive reeds share the most similarities (in appearance and with playing) with the V12 reeds. However, my experienced eyes and fingers tell me that the tip of Steuer reeds are thicker than the Vandorens. The reed is also thicker overall. But I cannot make out other differences.
I think someone once said somewhere on this board that all Steuer come from the Var Region of France, but not all Vandoren reeds come from there. Forgot who said it, but I remember someone mentioning that Vandoren gets some of its cane from Argentina.
-- Ray Zhang
Post Edited (2017-07-20 03:12)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-07-20 18:12
Yes, in my opinion it is the cane. Could be that Vandoren sells so many reeds they don't discriminate the quality as much as the "smaller" brands do. So they use whatever they have to meet the demand. Don't forget, reed cane relies on the weather just like wine does. To much rain not good, not enough rain not good etc. With fine wines a bad year brings in a lower price and lower demand and in some cases longer aging. With reeds, does Vandoren have that luxury?
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-20 18:59
Ed--in no way discounting your opinions, which were mine going into this until Karl introduced "cut" as a possible factor, I would be remiss in discussing the quality of reeds if I didn't also factor in longevity, along with "playability right out of the box with minimal or no adjustment" as important.
Many of us might find the "vanilla" Ricos we first learned on to be very initially playable with little or no adjustment, but not last long, or capable of responding to embouchure nuances, or [fast] articulation.
Then again, in fairness, less people nurture such reeds, playing them only a limited amount of time at first, carefully and slowly adjusting them over time, like we might do with more expensive brands.
The ability for a reed, once [or needing to be] adjusted to play many long and repeated sessions certainly speaks to quality as well, despite the upfront investment in time we might put into them.
Of course "immediately playable with nuance, consistent and long lasting" would be the "trifecta."
Post Edited (2017-07-20 19:01)
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2017-07-20 19:23
One point I have always wondered about is whether the Vandoren reeds are optimized to play on their mouthpieces. It would make sense from a business point of view so that they can sell more product. While they certainly can't openly come out and say that their mouthpieces are the best fit for their reeds, I could see that the business staff could make a case for that.
Just a speculation.
Cheers,
Robert
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-07-21 02:24
I think the suspicion that just about anything could be in a given box fuels the discontent as much as experience. In may cases you can pick out at least one or two reeds that are duds simply by looking at them in the light. The tip may be clearly darker on one side, the cut looks wonky, or the grain is not parallel to the center line. You may not unreasonably infer that they are including bad reeds, either intentionally, or by negligence. When someone claims to be "the standard", or is simply understood to be, they will be judged more harshly.
I have wondered if it is possible to shape the reeds as precisely as they let on. Wood changes shape from the time it is cut until it wears out. The shape it was finished in won't be exactly the same as when you get it. Also, because different stalks will have different variations even within themselves, some may cut very well, others will resist cutting, and others will squish and spring back under the blade, all resulting in irregularities. Manufacturers don't publish stats on that sort of thing. Even if they are the same, that doesn't account for one side of the reed being harder than the other. And, even if they are still the same hardness, they may prefer to move one way rather than another.
Reed manufacturers could do their customers an immense favor by classifying the type of cut (in easily understood terms) in each box. For example "thin tip - thick vamp" etc., or by intended use, "for open tipped mouthpieces with a short lay". (Of course then you would have to expect them to describe the mouthpieces more objectively....) They could also grade cane like "Premium cane, Var Region", or "Raw bamboo refuse from someone's backyard". Manufacturers seem to think it's best to keep their customers ignorant and fool them with phrases like "free-blowing", rather than attract them with useful descriptions. More openness and honesty in sales would go a long way to eliminating customer suspicion. (Lower prices for what is essentially a mass produced object would also help.)
- Matthew Simington
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-21 05:08
Matt74 wrote:
> In many
> cases you can pick out at least one or two reeds that are duds
> simply by looking at them in the light. The tip may be clearly
> darker on one side, the cut looks wonky, or the grain is not
> parallel to the center line.
I don't know how old you are, but this was much worse when i was a student in the 1960s. It was really incredible what some of those reeds looked like on a light table - no wonder so many players made their own!
> I have wondered if it is possible to shape the reeds as
> precisely as they let on. Wood changes shape from the time it
> is cut until it wears out. The shape it was finished in won't
> be exactly the same as when you get it.
That's exactly why cane is the best of bad alternatives and why synthetics are gaining adherents. That and all that follows in that paragraph in your post is why cane reeds can't be really consistent and why they change from one day to the next, especially when new.
> Reed manufacturers could do their customers an immense favor
> by classifying the type of cut (in easily understood terms) in
> each box. For example "thin tip - thick vamp" etc.,
Maybe avoid general terms altogether and give the tip thickness and thickness of the blank in millimeters or fractions of an inch. It wouldn't account for any of the possible variations in the cane itself, but it would tell you a little about what the manufacturer is trying to produce (in comparison with other manufacturers) - gets back to the issue of design.
> They could also grade cane
> like "Premium cane, Var Region", or "Raw bamboo refuse from
> someone's backyard".
Don't most of the major manufacturers claim that their cane is either from the Var region or some specific region in Argentina? Anyway, what is "Premium" cane? They'd all claim that description and the term would become as meaningless as it is for whiskey or steak.
I agree with you, but commercial advertising being what it is, once you get past tip and blank measurements (and those might change from cutting machine to opening the box at home), you can't count on the meaning of anything more.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-21 07:26
"I think the suspicion that just about anything could be in a given box fuels the discontent as much as experience."
Vandoren markets these dissimilarities (trying to turn a negative into a positive I think) as an opportunity for each player to find what they're looking for in a box. I wonder if say 10 good players tried the same reeds if there would or wouldn't be something approaching consensus on what were the good or bad reeds. Perhaps not, as even holding player embouchures constant (as if) mouthpieces certainly aren't.
"In ma[n]y cases you can pick out at least one or two reeds that are duds simply by looking at them in the light."
What you call duds I call, "not ready to play out of the box," a comment that lies somewhere between truth and optimism. Sure, even after sanding them they may remain duds, but if their degree of opaqueness in an area of a reed was a surrogate for weakness in that part of the reed, other areas of the reed could possible be taken down to match it without altering strength that much.
Thinner cane in one part of the reed could be stronger than thicker cane, so I just don't go by light. But maybe I do this because I like the visual acumen, failing to find pattern in reeds I like or dislike, maybe because I adjusted them all.
"I have wondered if it is possible to shape the reeds as precisely as they let on. Wood changes shape from the time it is cut until it wears out."
While this does not necessarily a good reed make, Vandoren claims to quality test their reed cutting accuracy, done in a climate controlled room, and package the reeds in foil in that room. Of course even if the reed really is darn close to what it was uniformly cut at when you open the foil, like you said, forget about it staying that way. Perhaps Vandoren's "line" might be that 'given this user experienced variety in post sales shape, it mandates us that much more to do what we can to approach uniformity in manufacture.'
They are being cut with industrial diamond blades, which should be no match for even the hardest cane or its variability.
Funny, if cane is anything but uniform, while I don't recommend haphazard cutting, I'm also not quite sure what is gleaned from precise cutting.
"Reed manufacturers could do their customers an immense favor by classifying the type of cut (in easily understood terms) in each box."
And run the risk of losing sales from a player who might not meet that criterion. At a very high level they do that stuff with reeds for Jazz, etc. But knowing their reed's variability, they claims to fitness could not only be wrong, but reduce the size of the potential buying pool.
(As a classical player, I'd never purchased a Java reed if made for clarinet. Players similar to me might also do same. And yet maybe I should. Ricardo Morales thought outside the box and used/uses Soprano Sax Legeres for clarinet solo work.)
"They could also grade cane like "Premium cane, Var Region", or "Raw bamboo refuse from someone's backyard". "
Companies conduct market research on whether segmenting their brands, and charging more for so called better stuff [cane] will increase profitability. What if they're not so good at picking the cane that plays best? What if they don't want to denigrate any of their existing brands or add even more confusion for dealers and customers to sort out.
"I'd like V21's for Soprano Clarinet Strength 3.5 in 'good' cane' please." Dealers have to inventory much more stock, which makes them unhappy when it doesn't correlate with increased sales.
Manufacturers have one objective: to increase the wealth of the stockholders in the business. One way to do that is to keep customers happy if it correlates well with more sales. But often other methods, even ones that, while not illegal, provide less transparency to the customer so a less informed one makes worse and more profitable choices, is the one chosen.
Perhaps no greater offender in the US market are mattress makers, who put 15 different labels on the same mattress dealer so customers can't comparison shop as well.
Some day, in the not too distant future, wood and clarinet playing may have little to do with each other. Carbon fiber cases and instruments, and synthetics reeds may rule the day.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-07-21 19:39
Agree with Karl about the design. Have to work Vandorens to get them where I want them, but especially Arias and Pilgerstorfers play well out of the box on my setup. The less you have to adjust, the less you can screw up. But the cane is different too, especially in strengths below 4 or 4 1/2. A lot cleaner sound and a lot more consistency with the the non-VDs. A long time ago, when I played Vandoren classics, I'd get 5s and work them down to maybe 3 1/2s, because the sound and response would be so much better.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-21 21:56
dorjepismo wrote:
> A long time ago, when I played Vandoren classics, I'd get 5s
> and work them down to maybe 3 1/2s, because the sound and
> response would be so much better.
That was pretty much the accepted wisdom in the Philly area when I was a student. But I recently found and used several very old left-overs from those days - #5 Vandoren Traditionals from, probably, the late 1970s or early 1980s. Almost all of them played more cleanly before balancing - even the funky-looking ones with dark spikes going all the way up into the tip on one side or the other - than modern #5s in any of Vandoren's cuts. I can't even begin to play on modern VD #5s. I can't imagine the cane was so different then. I think Vandoren has just redesigned their reeds, probably more than once since my student days, perhaps cutting them thicker overall or tapering them differently to facilitate the "dark" sound that so many players today say they want. But that's pure conjecture. I don't really know why Arias and Steuer Exclusives seem so much more vibrant, even when they're a little too stiff out of the box for my setup.
Karl
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-21 22:13
I wonder Karl to what extent if any, the mere aging of those old Vandorens you speak off played a role.
I'm not suggesting the older stuff wasn't better quality, I just wonder if your experience was multifactorial.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-07-21 22:26
Although I agree that the cut of a reed has a great deal to do with the "quality" of a manufactures reeds you can't make a good reed for poor cane. There's a reason in my past experiences of using the same brand, the same cut, I would find several good reeds in one box and not another. Is the cane different, I don't know, but the measurement are the same, cut the same way but differences in the cane. More dense, less dense, even grain, uneven grain etc. There was a time I made my own reeds, for about 17 years. I was most successul using a specific reed cane I was able to purchase after experimenting with several types. I used to buy blanks not tubes. I was extermely successful for many years until that can was no longer available. After a few years of fustration trying to find cane that I liked I gave up. That was also about the time Rico came out with their "professional" cuts and I really liked, still do, their "Thick Blank " reeds. Sure I like the cut of the reed but I also know how to adjust reeds to my liking from having made my own for so many years. It's the cane that made most of the difference for me. We can argue to dooms day which is more important, it doesn't matter. Bad cane produces bad reeds, good cane can produce good reeds. Just like the example of wine I used in my previous post above.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-07-21 22:29
I really can't write too much about the Steuer reeds as it will look as though I am promoting these reeds as advertising and I do not want to go against the Bboards rules.
I did say that the Steuer company hired a man that worked for Vandoren for 40 plus years. I also said that that the cane fields that Steuer uses are in the famous Var region of France since the 1940's.
Other companies such as Rico, Vandoren, and others get their cane from places where cane is NOT as good as the Var region.
The Var region is special because of the winds and rain and moisture off of the seas. The cane moves around a lot and the fibers are very strong. This is like how active people have stronger muscle fibers. So the cane lasts longer and is very consistent. If you look at these fibers with magnifying glass and compare the fibers to other reed companies you will see major differences in the structures.
Because the Steuer company gets all of their cane from the Var region of France and have since the 1940's, the same land, the cane is special. They own this land. It's special. You can find cane all over the world. But it kind of sucks, because the fibers are too thin, a lack of water, no wind, too cold, too hot, too much water. This is why reeds don't last and often why reeds don't even play when you first try them.
This is Not a plug for the Steuer company, but an education of cane.
I will be at the ClarinetFest, ask a lot of questions, as I am a reeds Master.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-07-21 22:47
Thanks for the info, Bob! I can confirm that the Steuer reeds are better in quality than the Vandorens. I have a whole bunch of Steuer reeds at home and maybe 3 boxes of V12s that I haven't used up, so I alternate between them, but still playing mostly on Steuer reeds. Whether on Vandoren mouthpieces (M30, Masters CL5, or B45) or the mouthpiece Bob made me (Vintage 1940 Cicero), the Steuer sounds better to me, and last longer.
At the rate I am using the Steuer reeds due to their exceptional quality, and the fact that I need to use up some of the Vandorens I have left, I guess I can go at least half a year without having to buy any reeds, maybe a year, who knows?
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-21 23:24
I'd love the US' Consumer Reports to get on this. Let them and their experts pick top quality cane (which I'll define as cane that is consistent with, if not guarantee the making of good reeds) and hand it off to the manufacturers to cut their patterns into and for the masses to test and rate double blindly.
"Oh, but our cut is so closely 'wired' to the type of cane selections we make," will be the chant of reed makers fearing such challenges.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-07-21 23:35
Vandoren 56 are much more consistent..and most players should be able to adjust reeds with a reed knife and a piece of fine sandpaper...I think people are more impantient. The V12 are in my geustimation much more inconsistent but I still am able to work them quite well...it comes down to how much time a player has to do this extra work
As for Steuer they are very fine through out the box..the Exclusive are very fine reeds..so I think these are less finicky than Vandy.
David Dow
Post Edited (2017-07-21 23:37)
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2017-07-22 02:34
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> This is Not a plug for the Steuer company, but an education of
> cane.
Bob,
It passes the duck test with flying colors...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-07-22 18:07
My last words on the subject because I said it's the quality and the cut but without the quality it's a hell of a lot more difficult to make a good reed. I was in the Var Reigion in June, they were having a hot spell. I wine manufacture I visited said he's been the manager of that vinery for several decades and he's had to make adjustment to the aging of his wines because of what he called, "global warming" and said there are years they get to much rain and some not enough and it has a big effect on the quality of his grapes. Reed cane, wine grapes, sun, rain, ice, snow, you name it, Var Region or elsewhere. I'm done.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-07-22 21:43
Just to be clear, the quality of the cane being used can't help but make a difference in the product, and it's true that you can't "make a silk purse from a sow's ear" (apologies to sows everywhere).
I just don't think it's necessarily the determining factor when you compare different reed brands and like one better than another. If it were only the cane quality in question, why would several people in this thread and others remark that they find 56 Rue lepics much more playable than V.12s. I'm not sure it's reasonable to think Vandoren is using different harvests from different places for each of their different models. They're cut differently. I think Steuer Exlusives have a different profile from V.12 as well. So do Arias. Steuer Classics are cut differently from Exclusives - a difference that's unlikely to have anything to do with where the cane used to make them is grown or what kind of growing conditions prevailed.
And comments that with enough work any reed can be made to play the way you want it to play if the cane quality is good are true. It's a question of how much time you want to invest in customizing the most impermanent part of your setup if there are other brands that will produce the result you want without putting in as much time (with the risk of failure proportional to the amount of adjustment that is applied).
Karl
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-07-24 09:29
Dave, What you say about manufacturers not giving more accurate descriptions, so that more people buy them is undoubtedly true. They advertise exactly that way. You can read anything into the descriptions you want. People probably buy them for that reason. They might not buy them if they knew what they were like, and they would loose those sales.
The downside is you have a lot of customers who bought a bunch of reeds that were all wrong for them and now they're mad! They don't think about that part. Descriptions may exclude some customers, but they invite the ones you want - the people that are most likely to be happy. If I like one brand and model, and I see there is another one that's similar I'll shell out more because I might like it.
Jazz reeds prove this strategy works. I imagine about the only thing that makes a reed "Jazz" is being thin tipped for an open mouthpiece. Thick blank is another example, very popular. I think V-12s are popular in part because they initially sold them by advertising a thick heart (if memory serves). Those descriptions are not as specific as what I had in mind, but it's something to go on and people respond.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-24 21:05
Matthew, I concur with your strong insights.
Fine lines exist between deliberate product description vagueness to maximize sales, and the potential future reduction in sales resulting from customers whose expectations were not met.
As an example, I think, I've often found humor in Vandoren's descriptions of their mouthpieces as they seem to seek new words for each one, that in large part convey the same praise for all of them.
http://www.vandoren-en.com/Traditional-Bb-Clarinet-Mouthpieces_a159.html
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-07-24 22:56
LOL
Mouthpiece descriptions all offer just the right blend of contradictory characteristics.
- Matthew Simington
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