 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-21 11:03
Last week, I took out my big bore Leblanc LL clarinet that belonged to Jimmy Hamilton of the Duke Ellington Orchestra from the late fifties to the mid 60s. It's a joy to play: very sonorous and well in tune; very flexible and easy to control. Other big bore clarinets I have tried are a Rossi and a Boosey and Hawkes 1010. I have never tried a Selmer Centered-Tone, which Eric of this board is so fond of. It is is true that big-bore clarinets don't have the density of tone of "modern" clarinets, but should they become extinct? I suppose clarinets obey the law of the survival of the fittest.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-02-21 17:59
The problem is with intonation. As the bore gets bigger the lower notes, specifically around G-B will become sharp. On some clarinets this can be as much as 20-30 cents
Tom Ridenour have a great video on this subject:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZdMiwCs8Ys
Actually the LL only has a bore of about 14.8mm compared to the usual 14.65. Some instruments can have bores as large 15.2mm
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2017-02-21 18:41
I think it's more of a market dominance thing than survival of the fittest. The classical market went to smaller, reverse conical bores almost universally at the same time saxophone sections in dance bands were phasing out the clarinet (and those dance bands would likely have been the ones to prefer the large bore sound). No demand = no supply, very quickly.
Interestingly enough, Selmer managed to produce a small bore clarinet that still sounded remarkably similar to their earlier models...but an instrument like the 10S, despite it's base 'sound', doesn't behave like the earlier large bores, which is unfortunate...the chalumeau goes very flat if you try to play it like a CT. I touch on this very briefly in a recent review on my blog...
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/2017/02/jazz-clarinet-gear-review-1958-selmer.html
I'd love it if Selmer and others went back to making large bores...but the market is probably still the issue. And anyhow, there are enough old CTs still out there that it's not a big deal to me personally (I own three and that will certainly last me the rest of my playing career). But I do worry about the future of trad jazz clarinet, once those instruments are too far gone, generations from now.
Eric
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The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2017-02-21 22:08
Note: There is nothing wrong with the intonation of large bore clarinets, unless you make the mistake of trying to play them like a small bore, polycylindrical instrument. The trouble happens when you think there is one "correct" way to play the clarinet and apply all of your Buffet R-13 technique to a Centered Tone...then you can't succeed. But the same is true the other way around: I've always been annoyed with the "flat" chalumeau of R-13s and Selmer 10S models.
Each type of instrument needs to be played the way it was intended. The differences in voicing and embouchure between Buffet R-13s, Selmber large bores, and Wurlitzers (among others) are many and varied.
Eric
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The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-21 23:59
JD: 14.8 for the LL is indeed, not that big a bore; something like that of a standard German clarinet. Ramon: I suppose the Peter Eaton and Rossi big-bore clarinets require an appropriate mouthpiece.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: NTSOG
Date: 2017-02-23 00:09
Hello Eric,
I have a Selmer CT [Full Boehm, P95xx] from about 1954.
It's an "orphan" as I have mostly Buffets in A, Bb and E: R13s, an RC and a pair of Vintage R13s. I bought it because I had always wanted a full Boehm and it is different: bright and powerful with Vandoren B45.
One of the differences is that all keys are gold plated. I have never seen a clarinet with gold plated keys before and wonder if you, or any one else, knows anything about this model variation?
Jim
Australia
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2017-02-23 00:20
Hi Jim--
Sounds like you have a great horn! I've never seen a CT with gold keys, and don't know if it was a model option at the time (my guess is no, and this was a custom job). I HAVE seen several Leblancs with gold keys (they were common, if not standard on Pete Fountain/"Big Easy" models) and I've seen plenty of customized Buffet R-13s with gold keys (Richard Stoltzman, I believe, always has his gold plated). I don't know about other makes, but congrats on the CT!
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-23 00:21
Dear Jim, My educated guess is that it was custom-made for somebody that requested gold-plated keys. I work for a small maker and we get all sorts of crazy requests.
I wonder who this could have been. Benny Goodman? If, by any chance it was him, hang on to your instrument!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-23 00:24
The American company, Conn, used to make a big-bore professional model clarinet. I blew into one once-when I was 15 years old, which is a while back. I recall that it was awful. But then again, I was young and foolish. Now, I'm old and foolish.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: NTSOG
Date: 2017-02-23 07:01
I'm not bored!
Thank you Eric and Rubin. I must do some more research on my gold CT. I had not considered it being a custom model specially made for some one.
Thank you both,
Jim
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-02-23 07:22
ruben:
I work for a small maker and we get all sorts of crazy requests.
Like what? I'd love hear about any unusual feature requests.
V
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2017-02-23 07:45
If small differences in soprano clarinet bores have such large effects on intonation, then how can you explain this:
Modern French bass clarinets (e.g. Selmer-Paris and Buffet) have excellent intonation throughout their range, with bores around. .920-.935 inches (pardon the English units).
My F. Arthur Uebel bass clarinets (a Boehm-system model known to have been made in 1977 and an Oehler-system model that's somewhat older) both have the old-style German bore of .780", and both play perfectly in tune throughout their ranges also.
Between soprano clarinet models the maximum difference in bore dimensions is maybe 2-3%; but between the modern French and older German bass clarinet types, it's 20%. Clearly there are other factors to consider.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-02-23 09:12
David Spiegelthal,
A lot of the problem is with the register tube. Bass clarinets can use a register tube that is both small and in the acoustically correct position. This is because they have a separate vent for throat Bb. This is part of the reason why a wide range of bass clarinets bore sizes exist. Since Bb clarinets must have a relatively bigger register tube, they tend to respond more to changes in bore size.
I actually have an early "large bore" Selmer 33 bass clarinet with a bore about 1mm bigger than my Lyrique bass. Despite this small difference the Selmer has wide 12ths and is also sharp in the lower register around Bb-G despite having two register vents.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-02-23 13:17
I agree with David Spiegelthal: bore dimension alone really can't cause the sort of differences that are being discussed. The logic is just guilt by association: clarinet model X has poor tuning; model X is big bore; therefore big bores cause poor tuning. As evidence to the contrary, consider Peter Eaton clarinets. These have tuning as good as you will find on a soprano clarinet, even though one model (the Elite) is big bore and the other (the International) is not. The issue is much more to do with bore shape. The Selmer CT and Boosey & Hawkes 1010 (both large-bore instruments with known tuning issues) are very nearly cylindrical in their upper joints. But putting a taper in the bore (as Eaton does) allows the 1010 design to attain much better tuning. The same applies at all bore dimensions: this is why the polycylindrical R13 is better in tune than its more nearly cylindrical Buffet predecessors.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-23 14:27
John: I fully agree. Big bore equals poor intonation is circumstantial evidence. I've met a lot of fat people that are jolly, but all fat people are not jolly. Would you call the bore on a German clarinet polycylindrical? It has a flare/taper; tapering out a little and very gradually at the bottom of the lower joint. But "poly"? Yet they seem to be well in tune these days.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-23 14:29
How do you bore a well? answer: You make it listen to a performance of Wagner's "Parsifal".
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-23 14:31
dubrosa; Somebody recently brought in the wood from his favorite pear tree-which I believe had been hit by lightening-and asked that a clarinet be made out of it to preserve its memory. The clarinet didn't turn out so badly! Now he wanrs an A clarinet made with the remaining wood.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-23 14:35
JDbass: I'm always very appreciative of your scientific rigor. Question: do you advocate part of the register vent being outside of the clarinet? On my Ridenour C clarinet and my fifty-year-old Leblanc LL, I would say about a third of the register key is a protuberance outside of the instrument (one third inside; one third in the wall of the clarinet; one third outside of it. Roughly speaking.)
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-02-23 18:10
Jdbass is in agreement with some of the German makers. Separate Bb and register vents, wraparound register keys to minimize the intrusion into the bore, and vents to raise the pitch of low E and F are common for Boehms with straight bores from 14.8 to 15 mm, even when they aren't "Reform Boehms," such as the Kronthalers' instruments. Don't know how much of that is because of the bore size and how much because of the straight bore, though.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-02-23 20:08
This thread is really quite a good one because towards the late 40s and mid 50s in the last century there was a big move towards large bore clarinet...ie Selmer and Buffet with the medium bore r13...accordingly the Brits had the 1010 Booseys. This came along when players were seeking great projection..but big bore clarinets can be quite resistant and not so easy a match to mouthpieces and reeds!
Sadly..clarinetists can at times be conservative because the sound they get from a given instrument is not at all what they have in mind for themself....I remember a conversation with John McCaw about clarinet great Frederick Thurston and Reginald Kell..both played the same model mouthpieces and reeds and clarinets
but Thurston always produced a narrow very centered sound while Kell produced the famed flutey tone he was admired for.
These things being said if a maker has half a brain they can certainly make a very nice large bore clarinet that plays well...
Karl Leister also made a comment in an older article which i will not quote..but the German clarinet in the late 60s underwent a great deal of bore modification at what he felt was a loss of its older character. In that case the bore was made somewhat larger...so like anything it is all apples and oranges..
Large bore clarinets
Selmer CT
Selmer 9s where fairly big
Boosey 1010s
not sure of other french large bore clarinets...but the r13 after the Caree modifications of the 50s went to a larger bore diameter....
Robert Marcellus played on a set of pre Caree Buffet clarinets through his career..in other words smaller bore straight bore clarinets!
David Dow
Post Edited (2017-02-23 20:11)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-02-23 20:45
Ruben,
This is a very good question. Intuitively you would think the tube would act as an obstruction. However since the register vent must act like a node the tube protruding into the bore might not make that much of a difference in the upper register where the player tends to feel more resistance. More research on this is definitely needed. Personally I am of the opinion that the advantage of preventing water from getting into the tube outweighs the disadvantage of the obstruction of the bore.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-02-23 21:18
David:
> big bore clarinets can be quite resistant
Well, again, it's hard to see how this could be something that arises just because of the bore size (otherwise presumably no-one would ever get a note out of a bass). Resistance must depend on the size and shape of the tone holes. I have 1010s from 1938 and 1969, and the pre-war instrument is very much less resistant than the later model.
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Author: clancy
Date: 2017-02-24 00:35
David:
Kell and Thurston did not play the same clarinet and setup. I've seen and measured both of their clarinets and mouthpieces, housed in the University of Edinburgh Collection of Instruments.
Thurston played pre-war 1010s, with a custom facing (extremely close and short) pre-war B & H mouthpiece. Kell played Hawkes & Son clarinets and Warrell mouthpiece with a medium, asymmetrical facing. The bore specs are not the same - the 1010 is much larger than the Hawkes. Completely different setups
R Wodkowski
Post Edited (2017-02-24 00:47)
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-02-24 02:45
I have a Selmer CT and Series 9, and they both play about as in tune as the 1960's era Buffet R13 I used to have.
Also, on both of them, the LH joint diameter measures smaller at the bottom than at the top...in both cases, about 0.2mm. So they are actually polycylindrical.
The toneholes on the CT are huge...enough so that I have to pay a lot more attention to finger position on the LH. The Series 9 are smaller, and it is a little less freeblowing than the CT.
I would also emphasize that, at the time I was switching from my R-13 to the Selmers, I had to buy new mouthpieces. I was using an older Woodwind NY and a Vandoren B45 on the R-13, now on the Selmers, I use a Fobes and older Morgan pieces (from the era when Frank made them).
Even on the R13, at one point I bought a Moennig reverse taper barrel, and it greatly improved the intonation and mouthpiece-friendliness, but in the end, getting new clarinets got me the sound and playability that I wanted.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-02-24 03:07
Another large bore French clarinet is the Leblanc Dymanic-H and Pete Fountain 'Big Easy' model - both have a 15mm bore.
Older Buffets from the 1930s have considerably large bores from what I've seen.
Until the Series 9 and 9* was launched in the early '60s, Selmer only offered the one model clarinet at any point in time instead of several different models at the same time with different bore and tonehole sizes. Nowadays it's expected any clarinet maker to have at least three different pro models in their lineup.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-02-24 04:46
Many different ingredients determine how an instrument tunes. Modern soprano clarinets have a reduction in bore diameter from the mouthpiece or the top of upper joint to somewhere in the upper joint (around the throat Ab in an R13). This is what we are call a small bore clarinet. It is a remedy for end correction.
The wave length created in a clarinet is actually longer than the length of the tube. Put another way, the frequency actually goes a little farther than the first open tone hole. How much farther depends on the frequency. Higher frequencies go farther down the tube. This means the higher harmonics will be relatively flat compared to the fundamental. This would be noticed in the middle section of the clarinet. The reduced section at the top of the clarinet is meant to correct this.
I believe that the size of the tone hole and thickness of the body also make a difference. Consider flutes that have a thin body and large tone holes.
The wide twelfths at the top and bottom of the clarinet are due to the limitations of using a single multipurpose register tube. This stuff makes my head spin.
Steve Ocone
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Author: dubrosa22
Date: 2017-02-24 06:55
Ruben:
Nice story. Pearwood makes for lovely recorders, I'm sure the clarinet you made was lovely too. I'd worry about the wood cracking though, it's certainly not as dense or water resistent as grenadilla or even boxwood.
Vaughan
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-24 18:13
John: Resistance does, however, also seem to have something to do with the shape of the bore (rather than its size, as you so rightly have said). On our clarinets, we closed the flare at the lower part of the bottom joint (close to the bell) ever so slightly and ironically, it lowered resistance. I might add that keeping an identical bore and distributing the holes a little differently, and thus changing their size, makes for radically different tone: you simply have an entirely different clarinet when you do this.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2017-02-24 18:34
ruben wrote:
>
> ...keeping an identical bore and distributing the holes a
> little differently, and thus changing their size, makes for
> radically different tone: you simply have an entirely different
> clarinet when you do this.
>
Does the tuning of the 12ths change too? I imagine that smaller holes would lead to narrower 12ths.
My reasoning is that 12ths are narrow for forked fingerings on early clarinets. They usually only work in one register. Making the tone holes smaller is similar in that it reduces venting.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-02-24 19:52
Dear Dibbs,
I haven't seen it do anything radically different to the 12ths. But...and this is a big but (one "t"! ha ha), it is a whole new game when it comes to the communicating vessels of tuning each note. The latter is, needless to say, a matter of finding a tolerable compromise. You tune one note up and throw another one off. You start by trying to get the 12ths tolerably matching and then take it from there.
Example of a difficulty: my e (upper joint) is slightly too sharp and my B a 12th up, too flat. I use my right-hand little finger G sharp to pull it up, so I find this discrepancy tolerable.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-03-01 13:33
Just some personal experiences. Last year I tried out a large bore (15,0 mm) Martin Foag Viennese system clarinet. My problem was overall flatness in the first register compared to the second register, especially in the low and high end (= throat tones) of it. Thus not sharpness.
I also tried out a Leitner & Kraus Viennese clarinet (model 350, wide bore but I don't know the measurement). Here also I had some flatness at both ends of the first register, while the middle section was quite good. Just low A was 2-3 cents sharp while the corresponding clarion E was about 5 cents flat, so both were well between acceptable limits (also low Bb was sharp, with standard fingering). Concerning the second register, I had some sharpness in the upper clarion.
Some Austrian/German clarinet makers offers French fingered clarinets with exactly the same bore as on their Viennese system large bore clarinets, such as all the Hammerschmidts (Otmar, Frank and Karl) and Martin Foag. I have just not yet managed to try out any of these.
What appeals to me with the large Viennese bore is a denser, more full and compact sound compared to narrower German and French bore instruments. A part of this sound is of course also the Viennese large bore mouthpiece with its narrow tip and long facing length.
Micke Isotalo
Post Edited (2017-03-01 23:04)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-03-01 17:54
Isotalo: did those instruments separate a throat Bb vent and the register vent? There seems to be a trend in that direction with Reform Boehms, which might help the tuning, but it doesn't seem to be happening with German system instruments.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-03-01 22:57
dorjepismo: You are right, those Austrian system instruments didn't have a double vented throat Bb. Some makers, as Schwenk & Seggelke offers it as an option for their German and French system instruments, but I can't remember seen it offered for any Austrian system instrument.
Leitner & Kraus offers a smart and quite simple extra venting for the throat A and Bb with a lever connecting the A-key with one of the sidetrill keys. When opening the A-key, also that sidetrill key opens. This is offered only for their German system clarinets, since it doesn't work on the Austrian system. I tried also such a German system instrument, and for me this mechanism made throat A and Bb clearer, but not perfect.
As I understand, the double venting mechanism for the throat Bb on Reform Boehm's is mainly for making it clearer, not primarily for tuning. It also allows for a more ideal positioning and dimensioning of the register tube since it isn't co-acting as the one and only tone hole for the throat Bb.
A question for you: Since you commented above on the Kronthaler's instruments, have you tried their Boehm models? Any review as a separate post, short or long, I believe would be of much interest here. Also any detailed information about their instruments. Their Website doesn't offer anything of interest, and they are otherwise also very secretive not advertising even their email address (like companies with a lot of disputes with their customers, but let's hope that isn't the reason in this case :-) ). You are of course also more than welcome to write privately to me, if you prefer that.
Micke Isotalo
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