 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-08-07 21:19
I see a lot of threads about whether they work for you or not. I'd like to start a thread with more input from those with whom it DOES work, and what to expect out of growing pains, and specific tips and things to try to give you a higher likelihood of getting them to work. I'll start.....
FYI, for myself, I'm talking for/about saxophone and clarinet legeres. These tips work for both clarinet and sax. If some advice is specific to one or the other, I'll specify.
Use a mouthpiece that you've identified as "reed friendly" - I have played mouthpieces that sound AMAZING . . . .with a reed that is carefully selected and trimmed and groomed for THAT mouthpiece. And I've played (and prefer) mouthpieces that work well with almost every darn piece of wood you can strap to it. The more reed friendly a mouthpiece seems to be, the more likely a legere will work well for you.
Start with the tip of the reed matched up exactly with the tip of the mouthpiece, and make VERY SMALL adjustments from there - This is a new one to me, but makes it easier to get that legere to work. As said before, very small adjustments in the position of a legere reed make a big difference. Too high, sounds like bad plastic. Too low, sounds like bad plastic. Left and right, bad plastic. But the sweet spot for a lot of them is matching tip to tip. Personally, I have a habit of putting can reeds just above the tip of the mouthpiece and I like the response and tonguing I get. This does NOT work with legeres. Line up those tips, make it as CENTERED between the rails and on the table as possible, and see how it sounds. Then make sub-millimeter adjustments up, down, left or right, and find that sweet spot.
Take the time to find the correct size, and don't pinch the reed - Really for ANY reeds, but the legeres will sound like bad plastic if you're pinching it shut or otherwise not allowing the full reed to vibrate. Good news with legere reeds, you can send off for an exchange of strength one time with the company. So buy 2 of each strength below and above your current reed (total of 6 or 8 or 10 reeds), find the one that works the best, and send the rest back for an exchange to end up with all the same strength you prefer.
Not all legere reeds are created equal - I like them, but of my currently three 3.75 legere signatures, two of them sound and respond better than the third. It happens.
Don't be afraid to use them for a long time (judge by the sound, not by the age) - I'm checking with some very good players that I see using legeres, and a lot of them are using legeres for MANY months, some going into and over a year. Now they ALL rotate the legeres so the reeds get a few days between plays, but hey, these reeds last! They sound great, and they will continue to rotate until they find that one legere is consistently sounding worse than the others in the rotation. They then scrap it, and add in another. FWIW, they also mark or otherwise have a way of remembering which reed is which, and which is oldest.
Give yourself a few weeks to adjust to the feel - It feels weird. It's plastic. Tonguing will feel weird. But you WILL adjust and learn to accept it, and if you find that sweet spot and size, you'll be happy to have a consistent reed no matter the weather and be able to focus on the music and technique in your practice and performance instead of focusing hours and hours on crafting reeds, and hoping the weather doesn't mess it up.
Careful your ligature doesn't move the reed as you tighten it - I'm using some rovner ligatures. I have to be careful cause sometimes, as I tighten it, it tightens from the side of the screw, slightly pulling the leather counterclockwise to make the post with the screw 'meet' the other post, and it will pull my reed slightly off center. I am still messing with ligatures to find one that is quick and easy, but just be aware that just cranking down that thumb screw MAY pull the reed off center, so tighten it slowly and watch the reed to see if that's an issue for you. You only have to tighten the ligature well once, so take your time doing so!
Record yourself, or blind test with a buddy - Should go without saying, but after a fair time getting used to it, don't let the feel and head sound of a plastic reed determine whether you intend to keep it. Take some time and get used to it, and then record yourself and compare recordings. Or better yet, blind test with a buddy. Better yet, just use it for a rehearsal and see if anyone notices anything. Chances are, they won't. And ask them after two or three rehearsals...."I'm trying something a little new, so have you noticed anything about my sound today or the past couple days?"
Worry about how they SOUND, not how they look or feel - One of my best legeres has what LOOKS like a micro-crack at the tip. But it plays fine. Talking to a great Sax player here, he's got a legere with a micro crack in the middle, and one that the butt of the reed seems to be fraying apart. But he uses them cause they play and sound fine. As a matter of fact, he swears by legere for the fine nuances of classical Sax and uses cane on his jazz setups cause he can "get away" with using cane on them. Lol!
These are some tips on how to really focus on legere reeds if you are interested in a good shot at getting them to work. I've switched back and forth and back and forth, and right now I'm back into legere. But the one I didn't know until recently, was matching up the tip of the reed to the tip of the mouthpiece. I was trying to push the legeres PAST the tip of the mouthpiece as is my preference with cane, and it made a huge difference taking those extra seconds to make sure it was as centered left and right on the table as possible, and as matched to the tip as possible. And then I realized my tightening of the ligature was pulling if off center and the past week or so, as I took more care on SETTING IT UP better, my results were MUCH better. I'm very interested in getting them to work well as I play in all sorts of weather, all the time. I also don't have the patience or time to groom reeds to a mouthpiece, or to deal with when it changes as I travel or weather changes.
A quick recap.....
Use a mouthpiece that you've identified as "reed friendly"
Start with the tip of the reed matched up exactly with the tip of the mouthpiece, and make VERY SMALL adjustments from there
Take the time to find the correct size, and don't pinch the reed
Not all legere reeds are created equal
Don't be afraid to use them for a long time (judge by the sound, not by the age)
Give yourself a few weeks to adjust to the feel
Careful your ligature doesn't move the reed as you tighten it
Record yourself, or blind test with a buddy
Worry about how they SOUND, not how they look or feel
Happy hunting folks! I hope to hear some more tips from those who have made the switch on what helped them make the switch, or things that have helped them adjust to legeres!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2016-08-07 21:21)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-08-07 21:54
I use a Grabner AWS PER with a Legere Signature 2 1/2 and it is truly a match made in heaven.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-08-07 22:07
Great advise! I've been using Legeres exclusively and like them quite a bit. I was just in an email conversation with John Moses who gave me much of the same advise.
To add to it for bass players: He suggested I get a Legere Tenor Sax #3. It has to be set just right as you described. WOW it's like a new mouthpiece and works well on my 3 favorite mouthpieces.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-08-07 23:28
Thanks for the information. I have a Legere that I use from time to time and really dislike because the sound is all over the place. I'm printing off a copy of your advice and will refer to it the next time I choose to play my Legere.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2016-08-08 03:54
The advice on placement is really important!
I tried moving my Legere Euro reed up to flush with the tip on my clarinet mp, and found it didn't sound good, and didn't respond well. Moved it down about .5mm, and it was amazing.
I also find that for me, Legere reeds work best with Rovner ligs. Metal ligs and Legeres don't get along for me.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2016-08-08 04:21
My European cut 2.75 sounds great but is way too flat, even on my shortest barrel. What can I do?
AAAClarinet
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-08-08 05:09
AAAClarinet wrote:
> My European cut 2.75 sounds great but is way too flat, even on
> my shortest barrel. What can I do?
>
I have both European and signature reeds as well. The signatures work better for me (European is also a little flat). The European reeds also feel very soft for an equivalent size. For example, I have 3.75 and 3.5 in both European and signature. The 3.75 European feels Softer than my 3.5 signature. And for me, soft reed equals flatter pitch.
Have you tried signature reeds or a stronger reed in general? (European or signature) or an equivalent size in signature? I don't know what mouthpiece you're using, but in general, I like the hardest Reed I can use that will allow me play a low E and diminuendo into nothingness without hearing excessive air running through the horn.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-08-08 05:57
AAAClarinet wrote:
> My European cut 2.75 sounds great but is way too flat, even on
> my shortest barrel. What can I do?
>
On advice from, I think, Paul Aviles in another Legere-related thread, I have experimented with combinations of mouthpiece facings and Legeres, because I also was finding flatness to be an issue, especially on altissimo notes. The Legeres - pretty much any cut that I've tried - seem to feel too soft and free-blowing (with resulting flatness as I play higher in the range) until I reach a strength that feels stuffy. There doesn't seem to be an ideal in between. I found, as Paul suggested, that Legeres seem to get along better with close-tipped mouthpieces.
I had a successful run recently in a pit situation with a Euro #4 and a Hill mouthpiece with a close (1.02+ mm) tip and a long (18 mm) curve. That combination is very easy blowing but in tune all the way up to at least F6 (as high as I needed to play) with only a little extra embouchure pressure above D6. When I tried the same reed on even slightly more open facings, I had very much worse pitch problems. When I used even a slightly harder Legere #4.25) on the 1.02 Hill, it was uncomfortably resistant and took more embouchure pressure than I like to use. So, it seems to me, the combination of reed and mouthpiece (related but not identical to Alexi's point #1) is fairly critical.
The other point Alexi made that I have found to be really important is position and alignment of the reed on the facing and table. Not only do I find that the position relative to the tip rail makes a difference, but I can feel (and I think hear) a difference if the reed is even slightly off of being centered side to side and straight - the butt end needs to be centered as well as the tip.
All of this said, I've gone back to my cane reeds and find that, although the Legere's sound was very satisfactory, I still very much prefer the sound of the cane reeds I use on the same mouthpiece. The cane sound seems much more complex and livelier. I'm planning to experiment more with even closer facings than the 1.02 mm, because the convenience of synthetic is undeniable.
The flatness you experience is a real phenomenon and one of the issues that I think needs to be looked at in the design, which I feel is still a work in progress.
Karl
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-08-08 15:32
I have been very successful using Legere' reeds on bass clarinet and not quite as lucky on Bb soprano.
On bass, I play either a Garrett MO or a refaced Spiegelthal Riffault. With both these MPs a 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 works. If I try cane, a VD 2 1/2 or 3 gives just OK results with the upper clarion and altissimo a little thin; the Legere' plays great.
On Bb soprano, a Legere' 3 to 3 1/4 is fine for the pit or outdoor band gigs with a Borbeck 16. But for serious wind band or woodwind quintet playing a VD blue box 3 1/2 gives me a tremendous sound with outstanding articulation.
Agreed on the placement up, down, and to the side is critical. Look at the butt end of the reed. The tip my look right but check this. And a small adjustments can make a huge difference.
Funny, though that with a Legere' on any of my clarinets any ligature seems to work. With cane though, I use only Harrison ligatures. With a Legere' the VD Optimum is an easy on and off.
HRL
PS I may try a tenor reed next time on bass.
Post Edited (2016-08-08 19:54)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-08-08 17:44
I like tenor sax Studio Legeres on bass clarinet. 2.75 on fairly open tip mouthpieces. Bay MOM and larger tips I have made.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Gouffre
Date: 2016-08-08 22:20
"Careful your ligature doesn't move the reed as you tighten it"
I struggled with this when all I had was a metal ligature, but once I got a fabric one I've had no problem. Seems a slippery reed needs a grippy ligature.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-08-09 02:37
I use a Luyben plastic ligature and have no trouble with the reed (Legere or cane) moving when I tighten.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2016-08-09 09:20
Moisten the butt end of the bottom of the reed with saliva before putting it on the mouthpiece and the reed won't move so easily when tightening the ligature, plus it's easier to adjust the position of the reed.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2016-08-10 21:32
I am very comfortable with the Euro 4 on a Vandoren M13 lyre and a gold plated Bonade ligature. The pitch is very good and the response is even throughout. I also very much like the soprano sax signature that Ricardo Morales uses, but I find it slightly soft in some situations as it only goes up to a 3.5 strength. kdk, I was playing the soprano sax reed last week at OSP when we did Beethoven VII and it played well for the whole rehearsal.
Before the Euro, I was experimenting with the regular signature and the standard. I liked those at first, but soon found them to be stuffy and uneven in some registers, and maybe a little metallic sounding. Since discovering the Euro, I play legere exclusively. I don't know what it is about the wider cut and the shorter vamp, but it agrees very much with me.
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Author: super20bu6
Date: 2016-09-03 07:28
I didn't like the original version of the Legere Reeds on Bass Clarinet.....but used a Classic on my Bb Contra with a Fobes San Francisco mouthpiece. The sound coming out of that Bb Contra is just great...projects...in tune. I've switched from a Fobes San Francisco on Bass Clarinet to a Moba Bass + with a Legere Signature 2 and a Francois Louis Ultimate Ligature. On my Bb Clarinet, I use a Fobes San Francisco CWF with a Legere European 3 and a Francois Louis Ultimate. I feel the FL Ulitimate really "opens" my tone...I tried a Silverstein on Bass Clarinet and while it worked well...I felt somewhat "confined" for lack of a better word. The FL ligs just seem to make me feel like I have a more free blowing, yet controlled sound. Dynamic control on my Bass Clarinet is just phenomenal with that combination.
I agree with Gene...something about that European cut just works for me.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2016-09-05 15:51
For contemporary gigs on the bass clarinet I use Legere Studio Cut Tenor Sax reeds(Strength 3) which work amazingly well on my Fobes RR bass mouthpiece. Now I can jump on stage without worrying many reed problems! For classical perforemances I still use Blue box 3s though.
Josh
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-09-05 22:19
Legere "work" ... but I find myself often returning, for certain type of music, to VD 56s on an M13. I like the compactness and resistance in the higher notes with the VD , especially if you are skipping around a first clarinet part in a wind ensemble.
Tom
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2016-09-18 20:37
Does the 30-day exchange apply to a Legere reed purchased through any retailer, or only reeds purchased through their website?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-09-19 02:34
Slowoldman wrote:
> Does the 30-day exchange apply to a Legere reed purchased
> through any retailer, or only reeds purchased through their
> website?
As I read the policy on the Legere website, it applies to reeds bought from any retailer. You need to provide proof of purchase, I guess both to establish where you got it and when.
Karl
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-09-19 16:49
For those who experience flat pitch playing Legeres, I would focus on why they might be making you play with a looser embouchure. They are not making your clarinet longer.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-09-19 18:00
I've had some trouble with the very high notes (above A 5 spaces above the staff), but have little use for that range, even playing first clarinet parts. Taking a little less lip in my mouth helps. The Signature works better for me in this respect than the standard Legere.
Yes, it's some trouble playing the end of the Artie Shaw concerto, but I don't expect to be performing it in the foreseeable future.
Burt
Libertas
M30 cut down 2mm
Signature 3.75
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-09-19 22:26
Mojo wrote:
> For those who experience flat pitch playing Legeres, I would
> focus on why they might be making you play with a looser
> embouchure. They are not making your clarinet longer.
>
For me, if I play on a Legere that doesn't make me loosen up a little, the response is stuffy and the sound unfocused. The difference is somewhere in the way either (a) the reed is designed or (b) the material actually vibrates. It's why I resisted using synthetics for so long. I do need to adjust my embouchure approach a little to play on the ones I'm currently using. I found that for me the solution to the flatness issue was to go to a closer tip opening (.97 mm with a 17 mm curve).
There is something either in the design (e.g. too flexible a tip coupled with too stiff a core?) or in the vibrating qualities of the material that doesn't seem to easily support a continuously linear response as you reach the higher available harmonic levels of the clarinet's range. No, the instrument isn't any longer with a Legere, and my embouchure adjustments, whatever they are, aren't flattening my clarion or chalumeau notes.
You would have much more concrete knowledge about the interaction between reed and facing than I do, and your comments about mouthpiece design always fascinate me. I only know what I feel when I play. But I feel there is something more going on than just loosening my embouchure when I can't play an Eb6 or an E6 in tune with the rest of my clarinet, especially when a decently vibrant cane reed solves the problem with no special effort from me.
Karl
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2016-10-08 23:55
My two cents regarding ligatures.
Many contributors (in several threads) have discussed the difficulty of keeping the Legere reeds from moving, especially during mouthpiece removal for swabbing or exchange between A and Bb clarinets.
I have had very good luck with, of all things, the Luyben ligature. (Yes, the plastic $13-including-mouthpiece-cap Luyben.) It holds without "cranking down" the screws, and the tone is neutral. Slight tightening before removing the mouthpiece is all that it seems to need.
Worth a try.
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-10-09 00:35
I had no problem exchanging a Legere reed bought from my local supplier. They were quite happy with the process.
Tony F.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-10-09 19:12
There seems to be alot of confusion about Legere and how to work them. For storage I put mine on a piece of glass with an elastic.
I use the Euro cut and have no trouble at all in the alitissimo with any of the mouthpieces I use..right up to double high c
.next...as for ligs a BG works just fine for me and I have not experienced the sliding others do..make sure the cork is well greased.
As with anything..don't be afraid to lower or raise the reed to alter resistance from the tip of the mouthpiece. As for tone no one notices a difference..and in my case i think the pitch is much better and more flexible now.
Again...that being said it took me a few months to really get the hang of the playing
aspect of the synthetic Euro cut but now prefer it to the regular cane!
David Dow
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Author: SarahC
Date: 2016-10-10 00:54
I have found they are less susceptible to squeaking too! which can be handy
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2016-10-12 06:36
A Legere tip that may be obvious, but I have not seen mentioned yet:
As a convert to the Legere European Signature and being no stranger to cross clarinet family reed application (I use Bb Signature reeds on Eb and tenor sax Signatures on bass clarinet), my new favorite soprano sax reed is the Bb clarinet European Signature.
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Author: Mattis2
Date: 2017-09-18 02:33
I have used the Legere Signature for my Tenor Saxophone for a couple of years now, and they work fine. However, I have tried the Signature for my Bb clarinet, and those did not sound good.
I have now gotten the new European cut. They are as nice to use as my Vandoren V12 #2.5.
However, both the Signature and the European cut are making my clarinet flat. The setup is the following: Buffet RC 444 (not the usual 442), Vandoren mouth piece B45 and Legere 2.5. Compare to the Vandoren V12, the Legere reed is 15 % too flat. Changing the barrel from 63, which I use, to 62 does not help as the clarinet is out of sync with itself.
Professor of Business, Norway. Playing the tenor saxophone and the clarinet (Bb)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-09-18 02:59
Mattis2 wrote:
> However, both the Signature and the European cut are making my
> clarinet flat. The setup is the following: Buffet RC 444 (not
> the usual 442), Vandoren mouth piece B45 and Legere 2.5.
> Compare to the Vandoren V12, the Legere reed is 15 % too flat.
> Changing the barrel from 63, which I use, to 62 does not help
> as the clarinet is out of sync with itself.
>
I think the experience of some flatness with Euro Signatures is universal, but 15% sounds extreme. How many cents (using a tuner) lower is B4 (A 444)?
You can try a stronger Légère. Maybe 2.75 would bring the pitch up a little.
The traditional way to adjust a scale that has become uneven because of a change in barrel length, once you know what barrel, mouthpiece and reed you want to use, is to retune the throat notes to play evenly with the rest of the clarinet - by adding filler to the holes (to flatten) or undercutting (to raise) the pitches. You won't then be able easily to go back to cane reeds and a longer barrel, though, without reversing the adjustments - not impossible but still a pain.
You might be able to find a mouthpiece with a smaller chamber that might bring the pitch up. I suspect that would have the same effect on the scale - raising the throat notes more than the longer notes, but maybe not as much as shortening the barrel. I the B45 is a Series 13, using a non-13 "Traditional" B45 might help, but if you're playing on a 444(?) RC, you probably aren't using a Series 13 mouthpiece.
Karl
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2017-09-18 17:13
I have also found it helpful to purchase several of the same strength from different production lots (made several months apart). Then I micro grade them as some will be harder and softer than others. I mark the butt end with a "+" or "-" or a number like "2.6".
I have found some hard 2.5s that play like soft 2.75s. Variation is a fact of life. It can be used to your advantage.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-09-18 18:33
I have learned that Legeres of all types have a variable warmup phase, independent of their initial play breakin. Fortunately, by the time I am warmed up myself (5-15 min of play), my Legere is also settled down and usually softened up a bit.
However, this does go against the notion that you can just plop a Legere or any synthetic on your mouthpiece (perhaps midway through a play session) and always expect it to be 100% on the first toot. Or it could cause you to needlessly reject a reed that just needed a few minutes of exercise. Be patient when the situation allows it.
I'm guessing I have sometimes fiddled with reed placement up/down left/right and thought I'd found a better position, when really it was just that the reed warmed up. If you really want to be sure, you have to put it back where it was, verify it's worse again, then reposition again and verify it's better again. Science can be tedious.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2017-09-18 18:46)
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Author: Mattis2
Date: 2017-09-18 18:41
Hi Karl,
Yes, 15 % might be to exaggerate. My meter on my iPhone goes from +20 til -20. By using the Legere Signature and European cut, the meter shows -6 to
-7 when set to 442. And it's easy to hear that it's flat compared to a vibraphone, which is in my band. I have only used the Legere #2.5.
I'm not sure about the B45 series 33, but mine is a B45 Lyre which I have had for some time and was selected because of a large tipopening that suits my swing jazz style. However, using my 5JB and the very same reed, it's still sounds flat. I'm not sure what you mean by "retune the throat notes".
Do you mean physically modifying the throat part of the instrument?
I have been exploring the Vandoren website, but I think it's hard to relate to the information there.
Hans Mathias
Professor of Business, Norway. Playing the tenor saxophone and the clarinet (Bb)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-09-19 00:47
Mattis2 wrote:
> Hi Karl,
>
> And it's easy to hear that it's flat
> compared to a vibraphone, which is in my band.
Well, you need to know also what pitch the vibraphone is tuned to.
> I'm not sure about the B45 series 33, but mine is a B45 Lyre
> which I have had for some time
The B45 Lyre doesn't come in a Series 13 version, so that's not an issue.
> I'm not
> sure what you mean by "retune the throat notes".
> Do you mean physically modifying the throat part of the
> instrument?
>
Yes. You can make each of the throat notes sharper by undercutting - enlarging the inside (at the bore) of specific tone holes. You can flatten them by putting tape or some other material around the inside top of specific tone holes. The holes you would modify in these ways would depend on what notes you're trying to change - the one you would work on to raise F#, for example, would also affect the other notes, so it needs to be done carefully from the lowest note you want to change. The reason you can do this is that the twelfths for these notes (above thumb F4/C6) are not normally used fingerings.
Karl
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