 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-10-26 22:54
I find that I usually use the term "Simple System" to refer to any small-number-of-keyed clarinet. (Usually, anything less than a Boehm system is "simple" to me).
I remember from earlier research (perhaps erroneously) that various "Simple Systems" existed based on Muller's system, and that several folks adapted new ideas - with Albert being the most popular; and that most simple systems after that point were simply known as "Albert systems" due to the popularity of Albert's system - even if they were not actually the same design Albert had originated.
Could a person (has a person) make/made a chart which shows which system is which? Is there a definitive "Albert" model which can be verified, or has the terminology so intermingled that it is a subjective matter altogether?
I ask mainly for two reasons:
1. I want to use the correct terms when I'm speaking about specific clarinets
2. I'd love to see (or perhaps collate myself if none exist) a chart of the various systems side-by-side, so that future identification would be expedient - if such identification is even possible/plausible/meaningful.
I wonder if such a chart would fall into just a handful of categories such as Muller, Albert, Oehler, Klose/Boehm...with everything else falling into the general category of "simple"?
I have an old 1904 fingering chart: "The Excelsior Clarinet Chart, Chromatic Scale for The Ordinary Clarinet with 13 keys - Also 13 keys and 2 rings." on the back side, it lists "The Excelsior Clarinet Chart, Chromatic Scale for The Clarinet with 15 keys, 2 rings. Also 15 keys and 4 rings."
My primary clarinet uses 15 keys (pads), 2 rings - but what fingering system is it really?!
Thanks,
Fuzzy
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-10-26 23:56
Given the variability in the number of keys on early clarinets, there surely must be a similar variety of fingerings. I wonder even if all clarinets with the same number of keys would use all the same fingerings. I have heard of a gentleman (I believe at Oberlin College in Ohio) who specializes in early clarinets. I suspect he might be a good resource. I'm sorry I am unable to give you additional information on how to contact him.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 02:48
Simple system usually refers to instruments that have developed directly from their Baroque and Classical ancestors which have gradually evolved by adding more and more keys as the years have gone on - usually adding closed keys here and there for notes which aren't part of the natural scale of the instrument and to improve certain cross fingerings (usually in the low register).
Their scale is usually based on a major scale starting with all six fingers down - raising each finger in turn gives a major scale. Any notes outside this scale are made by opening any of the added keys, as well as some notes are improved (in pitch or tone quality) by opening certain closed standing keys to further vent them.
You can trace the lineage of a full Oehler system clarinet back through simple systems and right back to its 5 key Classical era roots, then from there back to the chalumeau which the clarinet was developed from.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2015-10-27 02:48
AFAIK, the current clarinet prof at Oberlin (Richard Hawkins) doesn't have a major focus in early clarinets. He is amazing, and designs mouthpieces, etc.
His predecessor, my teacher from 86-90, Lawrence McDonald, did have a major commitment to early/period instruments. He also, though, did less with late-19th-century stuff.
The guy who used to be at Oberlin who actually does play "simple system" clarinets was actually its college president while I was there. His name is S Frederick Starr, and he is majorly in the New Orleans jazz style tradition, as well as late 19th-C. band stuff. He has/had a collection of horns from the last half of that century which included clarinets and various mid-range brass horns and cornets.
Hopefully something in there will be helpful. Sadly I don't have contact info for McDonald or Starr, but Hawkins' email address is on the Oberlin website.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 03:56
Attachment: bc1.jpg (184k)
Attachment: bc8.jpg (194k)
One interesting clarinet I've seen is an otherwise standard simple system boxwood Buffet from the mid 1800s, but the RH rings are for RH fingers 1 and 2 (and a 'sliver' key for RH3) instead of 2 and 3 (and an Bb/F key for RH3), therefore giving Boehm fingerings for Bb/F/alt.D, B/F# and the 'sliver' key fingerings for B/F#/alt.Eb.
See attachment for photos as this appears to be a missing link in the evolution of clarinets - neither fish nor fowl this one!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 04:42
Maybe Buffet was testing out some of Klose's ideas on some clarinets to see how well accepted and advantageous they were before launching the Klose-Buffet 'Boehm' system clarinet as we know it. I know some makers like to add gadgets to some otherwise standard instruments either to try them out to see if they do their job or at a customer's request if they want to use specific fingerings for certain notes to make things easier for them.
The introduction of the Klose-Buffet 'Boehm' system clarinet was indeed a definite fork in the road of key systems which separated them from what had gone before and then both ran on their own parallel lines of evolution and development. In many ways the Boehm system has developed less in terms of keywork design compared to non-Boehms which have many more branches to their evolutionary tree and also some crossover points where both ideas have merged on the same instrument such as the Clinton-Boehm with Clinton system top joint and Boehm system lower joint.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-10-27 05:07
Attachment: FullBodyConn.png (917k)
Attached is a graphic of the layout of one of my unmarked hard rubber clarinets of unknown make, unknown year...but identical to an 1898 Conn I own.
[EDIT: I posted by accident when I meant to attach]
No rings on the top section, but three "trill" keys (makes Eb nice). All in all, I have three clarinets pre-1920s with this exact fingering, two for sure are American made, and I'm guessing the third is as well. I'm not sure what fingering system to refer to them as. I also have a couple clarinets from a slightly later time period which look about the same, but only have two "trill" keys on the upper joint.
Fuzzy
Post Edited (2015-10-27 05:14)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 05:26
That's a regular simple or Albert system but with an additional side Eb/Bb key and a C#/G# extension tab so it can be operated by RH1 (for C-Db, G-Ab and high E-F trills) as you'd see on most German and Oehler systems.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2015-10-27 06:37
To confuse things, there were even more deeply melded hybrid Boehm/Albert-Mueller type clarinets made, in both the configurations you can imagine. Boehm pinky keys, Albert -Mueller type everything else, and then the reverse of this scenario.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 08:12
Basically it's anything goes with woodwind keywork - if you want it, you can have it! So long as you have deep pockets and someone prepared to do the work for you. Both Boehm and non-Boehm systems have their good and bad points, so you could pick the best ideas you consider from all the various types and have a clarinet built with the specific details you want to make it the perfect clarinet for you, but it may not suit anyone else.
Not a clarinet, but only recently I've seen photos of a Cabart cor anglais pitched in Eb with saxophone fingering and fully automatic triple vent 8ve mechanism. Now that's something I'd like!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2015-10-27 14:02
Attachment: Stammbaum.jpg (110k)
Some links to this topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_system
http://web.archive.org/web/20120325030127/http://usuarios.multimania.es/albertsystem/
http://www.die-klarinetten.de/content/images/stammbaum.jpg
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 14:30
Attachment: clarinet_lineage.jpg (120k)
Couple of left-handed clarinets in there - attached is the corrected version!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: el gitano
Date: 2015-10-27 18:14
Hi,
maybe this catalog will help a litte bit to find an answer of the 30th years
Look for
http://134.91.67.10/~honerla/ch/katalog/pp224-259_holzblasinstrumente.pdf
an scroll down to the clarinets.
More of the catalog in honerla.de and look for "Andere Fundstücke"
Claus
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-10-27 18:46
Wow! Thanks to everyone for the great info!
I'm still somewhat confused, but I'm starting to understand a little bit. Some of the terminology differs depending on what side of the "pond" we are (at least it appears that way from some of the links provided).
The PDF provided by Claus (el_gitano) matched up with something Silver said earlier - that the clarinets were sold by feature, and not necessarily by model. However, the two exceptions in the example provided by Claus were Albert and Boehm. Interesting.
Katrina provided some great leads to try following. I'm dumbfounded that I didn't know about S Frederick Starr - one of the founders of the Louisiana Repertory Jazz Ensemble?! Really cool!
Bart provides a good lead as well. Thanks!
Chris P - thanks for hanging with this thread and telling me what the three clarinets I have should be labeled!
As per Michael's post - thanks for the links, they are greats leads, and I might have some success contacting the creators of the now-defunct sites.
Claus (or anyone else) - do you happen to know what catalog the PDF came from? What year, etc. (For anyone interested, the clarinet listing start on page 24 of the PDF).
I think Claus' PDF might be a great start to the type of comparison I was looking for.
Thanks again to everyone - this has been great!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-10-27 19:12
In Woodwind Instruments and their History, Anthony Baines classifies "non-Boehm" clarinets into three categories: "simple or Albert system, Clinton model, and full German models (Oehler etc. [sic])." (p. 138) He gives basic key mechanism diagrams for each of these. (pp. 138, 141). Regarding the simple/Albert system, he identifies a number of modifications: patent C# key, left-hand Eb/Bb key, rings for I and II, and rings for I, II and III.
He would describe your clarinet pretty much the way Chris does, except he would probably note that it has a patent C# key (duplicate C# hole on the bottom left side of the clarinet (as you're facing it in your picture), controlled by the C key).
I can't find the source right now but I recall reading that 13-key clarinets (with and without the patent C# mechanism) became "ubiquitous" in Europe and the United States and were generally referred to as "simple system" clarinets in Europe and "Albert system" clarinets in the U.S.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2015-10-27 19:14)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 19:53
Patent C# is fitted to most simple/Albert systems from the late 1800s/early 1900s onwards to make low E-F# and upper B-C# slurs and trills easy as you don't have to slide the LH little finger - just hold down the E/B key and release the F/C key for the F#/C#. Also makes a low F#-G#/Gb-Ab and upper C#-D#/Db-Eb slur or trill easy by holding down the E/B key and open/trill the Ab/Eb key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-10-27 19:59
Jack - Thanks for the great info! This helped solidify a few things for me.
Chris & Jack: The funny thing is...I've been playing Albert since 2009, but only a month ago (while working on that hard rubber 1922 Conn), noticed the C# tone holes being approximately equal, and tried the alternate C# fingering for the first time. I was astounded! Boy! Has it ever made playing C# passages easier!!!
Fuzzy
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Author: el gitano
Date: 2015-10-27 20:13
Hi fuzzy.........
in honerla.de and then in "Andere Fundstücke" you can download the complet catalog in the first pdf "Gesamtkatalog" by opening.
It´s a german factory and seller, called ADLER.
The catalog is younger then June 1911. You can read it in one of the first pages by confirm a law. And I think older then 1933. Because germany had had (like the hole world more less) the great crisis. And by the ¿convert? of the price between $ and RM (Reichsmark) it must be before the great inflation, and so the catalog have had no value by the prices.
So the age: More less 1930
Claus
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-10-27 21:22
Hi Claus,
Thanks for the clarification. I had re-read your original post and found the full magazine, but your explanation is very helpful! Thanks again.
Fuzzy
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Author: el gitano
Date: 2015-10-27 21:49
Here is a somtimes called halfböhm. I cannet read the stamp on the instrument, the barrel is not original.
It´s the "other side of the coin" of Chris´s instrument. Exist also one in the web by Buffet.
Claus
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-27 22:10
That's got Boehm pinky keys, but otherwise simple system.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-10-27 22:11)
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-10-27 22:50
Claus - thanks for the photos - that is a pretty cool combination. Four upper joint trill keys, and Boehm pinky keys on the lower joint. I can see where classification becomes somewhat arbitrary.
Chris (et al.) - So, in reference to my earlier graphic (png), what about some of my other clarinets which have the same keywork as in my earlier post, except sans LH Eb/Bb? (...and possibly sans LH C#) - would those just be straight-forward Albert systems?
Hearkening back to something Silver posted...was there a single system known as the definitive "Albert" system, or was it more of a "line of systems" as has been suggested?
Is it only with the perspective of history that we make these distinctions, or were the distinctions used by the respective contemporaries?
Thanks,
Fuzzy
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2015-10-27 23:38
Yes , as I mentioned there are "demi-Boehm" clarinets that were made in both configurations, as pictured and the reverse, with Albert-Mueller style pinky keys, Boehm keys for everything else.
Edit: M. Freres catalog from 1905 shows them- http://martinfreres.net/martin-freres-catalog-of-clarinets-from-1905/
Post Edited (2015-10-28 05:04)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-10-28 08:21
Sorry to join this thread so late, but the person you want to see is Eric Hoeprich at the Jacobs School of Music in Indiana (and the Paris Conservatory in France). He is the author of the most scholarly book on the history of the clarinet in English, "The Clarinet," Yale U Press, 2008, and he personally owns a collection of over 100 period clarinets, some of which he regularly performs on.
You can reach him at ehoepric@indiana.edu.
He's on YouTube performing, on period instruments, the Mozart Clarinet Concerto and a Mozart Divertimenti, KV 439b for three basset horns. See "Eric Hoeprich, Mozart."
Another acknowledged scholar of clarinet history is Albert R. Rice, author of "The Baroque Clarinet," "The Clarinet in the Classical Period," and "From Clarinet D'Amour to Contra Bass: A History of LArge Size Clarinets, 1740-1860" all published by Oxford U Press. He used to be the curator of the Fiske Collection of Musical Instruments at Claremont, but I'm not sure where he is now, since the instruments in the Fiske Collection became a part of the new MIM Musical Instrument Museum in Phoenix, Arizona. See http://www.mim.org.
Hoeprich and Rice have gone far more into detail on many aspects of clarinet history than F. Goeffry Randall and Anthony Bains were able to in their admirable earlier works.
Post Edited (2015-10-28 19:02)
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Author: Mirko996
Date: 2015-10-29 01:29
Those system are completly different among them. I made a lot of time but if you remember that muller have few key and albert system it's like muller but the octave is placed in top of clarinet and not like the oehler which has laterally (and i very love the albert for that!).
For one who doesn't want to distinguish it call simply "Muller" because all clarinets (expect Mazzeo System/Boehm or Bohm), they are born from the idea of muller, but the sound is different for every system
Albert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JnXC3xxtww
Oehler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umHsNVu8klc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfTH2vip5z0 (Taragot or Tarogato)
Muller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYBDJhg4ErU (Is C clarinet)
The mode to play those clarinet is some different than Boehm System but isn't hard, the emission is totaly different and for more it could be "Out of the tune" that because play in a completely different scale from that of clarinets boehm, for muller and derivates boehm clarinet are out of tune.
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-10-29 10:11
For about 70 quid you can purchase the catalogue of the Sir Nicholas Shackleton Collection.
http://www.euchmi.ed.ac.uk/ucis.html
Or...you can view the catalogue here:
http://collections.ed.ac.uk/mimed/search/*:*/Collection:%22sir+nicholas+shackleton+collection%7C%7C%7CSir+Nicholas+Shackleton+Collection%22/Maker:%22hawkes+%26+son%7C%7C%7CHawkes+%26+Son%22
For example, to see my Hawkes & Son Bb ''simple system" , just click on the 3rd image at this URL.
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-10-29 10:37
...err, sorry about the size of the URL.
Is there a way around this anyone?
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2015-10-29 22:36
Mirko996 Thank you for the Utube links. Enjoyed them. The rendition of "Gabriel's Oboe" using the Clarinet instead was also enjoyable and very well played but I"d much prefer the Oboe doing this as it adds more dimension to the music.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-29 23:00
Standard simple/Albert system as played in the UK (and often found in antiques shops and on eBay) but missing the F/C and patent C# keys.
There were simple systems built with a Barret side key with rings for LH 2 and 3 for Eb/Bb and F/C, so only a single touchpiece instead of two (as borrowed from the Barret side key fitted to Triebert System 3 and 4 oboes).
Some other otherwise simple/Albert systems had rings for LH 1 and 2 to make the lower register F# in tune without having to open the side F key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mirko996
Date: 2015-10-30 00:12
Ned:
http://www.euchmi.ed.ac.uk/ucis.html
Or...you can view the catalogue here:
http://collections.ed.ac.uk/
:) here's short link
Nice to help you dear Barry Vincent, and i prefer Gabriel Oboe for Oboe, clarinet is fabolous in my opinion but the sound of oboe is praticaly nasal and high notes are brillant and beatiful, the particularity of this clarinet is the E low in the bell, like the full boehm clarinet, and to get E low you get like in the bass clarinet C low and doesn't affect the pitch, make the instrument virtually homogeneous same thing done in the wurlizer clarinet, especially on Reformed boehm clarinet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkPGI2yIYfQ (Giora Feidman and wurlizer piccolo and soprano b flat reformed boehm)
Only to show you a tonal difference and if you like Giora Feidman there's a documentary, and is very awesome, if you go in minute 25:00 you can listen some player (that use the same pomarico mouthpiece) and different clarinet, a boehm clarinet and oeheler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVN-9eZYduw
Post Edited (2015-10-30 01:05)
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Author: muziker
Date: 2022-02-06 20:36
Greetings,
This is my first active participation in this forum.
Before I go any further I need to ask what might seem like a dumb question:
If someone (like me) replies to and old topic (like this one) do the past participants in that topic automatically get alerted to the fact?
I have some things to add to this discussion, but it’s years old. Maybe it’s better to simply reintroduce the subject with a new topic.
I’ll offer what I can once I better know how this goes.
(Over the years I have repeatedly come across postings to this discussion group while searching for something. Until now, I’ve never had a compelling reason to mix in. Now I’m taking the plunge - maybe...)
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2022-02-06 23:59
Hello Muziker. It's probably best to start a new thread, because that way people will see your post right away, meaning they don't have to scroll through a lot of old posts to find yours. So your post will likely get more attention if you start a new thread.
But as you can see, the old thread with your post has reappeared on the BBoard.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2022-02-07 02:35
Hi the June 2020 edition has relevant info on the albert/simple system, barret syste and romero system if you are keen
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2022-02-07 13:36
Muziker, as I see it, if your post is well in line with the original thread, it could contribute to the foregoing information as well as vice versa. Thus no problem to put it here, and there are also advantages with information collected in one thread rather than scattered about in several ones.
It could be a bit annoying when one starts to read a thread started long ago without noticing the date of the original post, only to realize it after a while (which happens also to me now and then  ). However, I think this is a minor problem.
Concerning your question about E-mail alerts, those previous contributors who have asked to get E-mail replies will still get them - provided that their addresses are still in use. For my part, even when I ask for E-mail replies, I very seldom get them - probably due to some technical issues.
Post Edited (2022-02-07 13:59)
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Author: muziker
Date: 2022-02-10 03:00
Thanks to those who responded with suggestions! I agree with Micke and Kehammel so I have initiated a new ‘topic’ to address this subject.
KB
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-02-10 03:27
Yes, the clarinet Klose and Buffet were out to improve was not the "Albert system" but rather the Muller system, correct? As you say the Boehm system preceded the Albert. Also, the Alberts made Boehm clarinets as well as Albert System clarinets. In the US, the Albert System clarinet is historically and culturally associated with the early generation of jazz players from New Orleans and players influenced by that tradition. There is a long list of names of early jazz Albert system players including Sidney Bechet, Johnny Dodds, Jimmy Noone, Barney Bigard, Leon Ropollo, Ed Hall, Barney Bigard, Larry Shields, George Lewis, Omer Simeon, Albert Burbank, George Baquet, Raymond Burke, Emile Barnes, Joe Darensbourg, Gene Sedric, louis Big Eye Nelson, Alphonse Picou, and even today, Evan Christopher. Among jazz historians, the Boehm clarinet is said to have come "after" the Albert because the swing era clarinetists by that time were nearly all playing Boehns rather than Alberts. In New Orleans in the 1950 and 60s, Ray Burke and others were still selling Albert system clarinets to proponents of traditional jazz, but I believe he said he seldom or never had one made by the Albert family. Most of the jazz players knew and preferred Albert system instruments made by Selmer, Buffet, and Penzel-Muller.
Do you have any idea if the "Albert system" clarinets made by these companies and used by the vast majority of the traditional jazz players all had the Tyler C# mechanism? Or was the term more loosely applied by the manufacturers and players?
Post Edited (2022-02-10 06:34)
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The Clarinet Pages
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