 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2015-06-24 13:05
Remember the Seinfeld episode with the "close talker?" I think I'm ready to write a new one called the "loud player."
I play in two different community bands and in each there is a clarinet player who plays very loudly ALL OF THE TIME!!!
I've scratched my head trying to figure out why they do this, because each one is a very good player. Person 1 is a little hard of hearing, so I thought that might be the problem. Person 2 seems to hear just fine, so I don't know.
Then two other things occurred to me. I recently tried someone else's set up (clarinet, mouthpiece & reed) and when I played a note, there was no resistance so the horn played very loudly. That reminded me of years ago when I played on a mouthpiece that did that, and someone tried my set up, and the same thing happened. So hum. . . it could be their mouthpiece/reed combo.
The second thing is that I've noticed it seems hard to hear myself in band -- as if I'm playing softly or can't get enough volume -- yet I hear the other players near me very well. Last night I finally asked the gal next to me if she experienced that problem. She said yes she did, and oh by the way she hears me very well. Hum. . . go figure.
So maybe the loud players can't hear themselves so they don't know how loud they're playing, or maybe they've been playing on the "free speaking" mouthpieces for so long they have no point of reference what it's like to play with a little resistance and restraint.
Anyway, it's just an interesting thing I've noticed, that I don't real noticing when I used to play "back in the day."
But on to the main point. Is there a polite and sensitive way to tell these folks they're playing too loudly?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-06-24 13:21
The correct way would be the director to demand a more uniform volume across the section(s).
You may want to consult him/her, like "am I too soft? Are others too loud?"
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-24 16:53
The answer to the posted question is the same as the punch line to an off color joke: Why does a dog lick himself [edited for the sensitive]?
Because he can.
Balance is up to the conductor. But if you are in any situation to call a sectional or have input during one, THAT could be one of the things you work on to ensure a cohesive sounding section.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2015-06-24 18:05
My thought: if a section plays in tune with good tone quality and precisely together, no one needs to play extra loud. Playing to knock the front wall down is no substitute to being accurate. I once played in a small wind ensemble with two on a part in the clarinet section, and they all played super loud, thinking they had to make up for numbers....not a fun way to go, really.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
Post Edited (2015-06-24 19:47)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-06-24 20:48
Could be hard of hearing ... but most often I've found it to be ignorance or ego.
You know, you sit beside some one that reads fairly well and fingers get in the right place in time, but beyond that, the finesse of a Mac truck navigating a ski course. Loud, aggressive, no nuance, always 2 dynamic levels above what is called for.
Unfortunately, in a community band setting, most conductors won't call out and throttle a single player back (unless the paint is truly pealing from the walls) because it's a volunteer group and everyone is friends. No one's feeling are to be damaged. The usual result is that everyone tries to compensate and match levels, which for amateur players often results in terrible sounds, poor control and intonation.
I've been guilty of level competition in the past, and even changed my setup and more gut push in some ensembles to be able to hear myself and actually contribute something that can be heard. Turns into a "blow match" ... a gathering snow ball of sound pressure levels.
Less is more.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-06-25 20:49)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-06-26 00:59
Might it be less abrasive to ask for a reduction in such volume from these players phrased around the notion that at the current level you can't hear yourself play?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-26 01:57
Here is where you have to establish SOME form of feedback loop.
A concerted sectional (or better yet regular sectionals) is really the best way to address the issue. You cannot just go up to someone and say, "hey, you need to play softer." To really establish what one needs to do in context you need to HAVE a context.
The tricky part as a part time community group is that the designated time slot each week is usually all anyone is wiling to give. But if you can manage a session, you need someone to LEAD it (conductor, section leader, most respected musician of the group) so that a cohesive product can be obtained. And sit in a circle so that each member can hear (and see) the others. Done properly (respectfully; professionally), everyone will hear a difference and agree on the outcome.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-26 02:14
It won't be what you want to hear, but I doubt if there's a way for you as a member of the section to get such folk to tone down their volume or do much of anything else without making them angry or at least annoyed, and probably dismissive of you at the same time. The conductor can get them to play more softly in specific situations if he takes conducting seriously, but often the directors of recreational community groups want to keep everyone happy and won't risk the peace by being too musically insistent.
If you can find a community orchestra to play in, the problem of too loud playing will be *mostly* confined to the trumpets and trombones. At least you won't be sitting next to them.
Karl
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Author: marcia
Date: 2015-06-27 09:58
>If you can find a community orshestra to play in, the problem of too lud >playing will be *mostly* confined to the trumpets and trombones. At least you
>won't be sitting next to them.
No, it would be worse. You could very well be sitting in front of the trumpets. There may only be two of them, but they can be very loud.
Marcia, the voice of experience.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-06-27 16:51
The "loud player" in the section - who sits next to me - also moves her clarinet a lot. In particular, often using a downward motion of the instrument on strong attacks. It is maddening and so loud I can not hear myself.
I have talked to the principal (forget about the director - he is an arrogant brass player with no sensitivity to woodwind playing nuances) and his comment is "she is very honky in her playing." OK, but nothing done.
I solved the problem by going to bass clarinet for the past year (loved it) and am now moving to another band.
HRL
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2015-06-29 18:31
This post reminds so much of the whole problem with students and clarinet players in general..even professional players. Some players really have a great deal of trouble with hearing themselves when playing. Some of this may even be neural transmitting of sound to the inner ear. Just recently a very good player bought a very fine mouthpiece from me in an effort to improve her playing..but was quite sad is that she just simply went back to playing quite loud and with no dynamics which is her normal idea of playing....maybe even sounding worse!
I also think all dynamics in a given situation by a player must be looked at no matter how small or large the space. Conductors in some of these matters are useless because they are only hearing from their vantage point..not a clarinet player inside a section. However, guys like Dutoit and Maazel really can hear and sense these things which is what sets them apart...they have that sixth sense of when a group needs to be softer for the building etc al...and they certainly would not be able to explain why they know this.
David Dow
Post Edited (2015-06-29 18:33)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-06-29 21:57
Is some clarinet brand better than all the others when it comes to playing loud, and therefore market leading?
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-06-29 22:14
Some old big bore student line horns can get with it! A have a couple of Signets that have a great big beautiful sound, but a dreadful everything else. I think Selmer changed the acoustical design of the Signets over the years, so your mileage may vary with date of production.
Actually, I was comparing to my Lyrique Libertas to my teacher's R13 the other day ... about the same. The hard rubber is softer, damping some of the more penetrating, edgy overtones ... but in shear SPL, not really any difference. I can select a MP and reed that will bring the penetrating quality back on par with the Buffet, but that is not the sound I am after.
Using a 5RV-lyre (non 13) with a Legere Signature 2.75 will do the trick ... centered and projecting, good for noisy band playing. Or an M30-lyre with a blue box VD is comfortable and powerful with more smoothness, IMHO.
Tom
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Author: as9934
Date: 2015-06-29 22:20
This is often what people say about me. The reason I do it, and I don't always, is because if I dropped out the clarinet section would literally lose half its volume. I have tested this by not playing a rep and placing a decibel meter on my stand. To make matters worse we have about 10 clarinet players and about 20 trumpet players so if I don't play loud our sound is completely drowned out. And what's worse is the band director refuses to address this problem. I would be fine playing at a softer dynamic, and I do on occasion, if the section would put forth more of an effort. I don't mean to sound narcissistic or rude but it is simply the truth.
As for certain clarinet products being louder than others, I find that large bore mouthpieces, like the Vandoren B45, produce a larger sound. I'm sure this is also true for larger bore barrels and larger bore clarinets. The few that come to mind are the backun fatboy and the Selmer Centered Tone. People mainly use these in a jazz setting.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-06-29 23:35
as9934 wrote:
> The few that come to
> mind are the backun fatboy ... People mainly use these in a jazz setting.
Please refrain from posting what you don't know about.
...GBK
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-30 00:04
Yeah, well the "fat boy" style barrel (made by a number of custom makers) concerns the outer dimension of the barrel. It has more wood around its exterior diameter. This does have an effect on the timbre of the instrument (slightly) but the bore diameter is whatever the end user needs to be compatible with the clarinet she/he is using.
I would also take issue with the idea of "volume of air" having any relation with sound pressure levels or how audible something is. Just as an example, the demure oboe can pretty much always be heard but it has the smallest volume of air of most instruments.
Achieving a big, solid sound on the clarinet has EVERYTHING to do with technique you develop to control the steadiness (must be VERY steady at ALL volumes) of the air column. This is achieved by ensuring that your abdominal muscles are actively engaged at ALL times (you must feel the PUSH from your gut).
And finally as far as what is necessary (or desirable) in your section should be entirely up to the conductor (the ONLY person who has a central ear on everyone's volume in the group). Even if the TOTAL volume of the clarinet section actually NEEDS to be higher (as you contend) there is no way the section will sound as a cohesive unit with ONE clarinet sticking out like that. You really may want to have an honest chat with the director about what he/she is hearing and what she/he truly wants as a final product. And as I have said in other spots along the way recently, a good old fashioned, honest sectional will cure A LOT of problems (and make for some good old fashioned human contact - maybe y'all will even like each other more afterwards!).
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-06-30 03:37
as9934,
I believe a more accurate test rather than "I have tested this by not playing a rep and placing a decibel meter on my stand" would be to have a db meter positioned so the entire section sound is measured (with you in and then out) rather than just basing your conclusion on what happens in the small area by your stand.
HRL
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-06-30 04:01
I was thinking about the Buffet network effect ("you have to play Buffet since everyone else plays Buffet") and its origin.
There could be a tragedy going on, like when all people in a group are standing on their toes just to get a better view.
Buffets don't tune as well as some other brands (I can prove that statistically and objectively). They don't sound as colorful as some other clarinets (subjective). So what do they offer? Is it the ability to project i.e. to play louder than your neighbor?
Post Edited (2015-06-30 04:02)
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Author: as9934
Date: 2015-06-30 22:47
Johan H Nilsson wrote:
> I was thinking about the Buffet network effect ("you have to
> play Buffet since everyone else plays Buffet") and its origin.
>
> There could be a tragedy going on, like when all people in a
> group are standing on their toes just to get a better view.
>
> Buffets don't tune as well as some other brands (I can prove
> that statistically and objectively). They don't sound as
> colorful as some other clarinets (subjective). So what do they
> offer? Is it the ability to project i.e. to play louder than
> your neighbor?
>
>
> Post Edited (2015-06-30 04:02)
I would not say that Buffets offer the ability to play louder than other clarinets. I would say that Buffets do offer a slightly brighter tone than many clarinets which makes it project better. I'm sure that you could get project well on many other clarinets they just project in a different way.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-01 14:16
as9934,
I agree on the brightness. Maybe the ability to play out of tune improves projection too? ;-)
A contributing observation to my thoughts was a post on this forum that I read a while ago, where one clarinetist chose a Tosca over a Selmer Recital, "simply because I could play louder on it":
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=369362&t=369362
I have no interest in discrediting Buffet. I grew up with an RC and have enjoyed the Festivals and the Vintages I have tried, but I have yet to understand Buffet's dominance in the field of soprano clarinets.
In the small format music I play, I have no real need to project a lot. My problem is the opposite. When I play the harmony part in a piece, the clarinet's tone color, not the volume, tends to drown the violin melody part. Transposing an octave down to the chaulumeau register helps. I have noticed other people's awareness of this problem in the way clarinet parts are arranged.
Post Edited (2015-07-01 14:18)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-07-01 18:52
Overtone levels and their distribution or weighting affect the subjective projection and loudness. R13s and some others have a bit more "edge" or subjective loudness than others. It's partly acoustical design and partly material causing this. But maximum available SPL of the fundamental pitch, comparing an R13 and Lyrique Libertas is insignificant.
Nice thing about a design/material that is inherently darker/warmer is that you can select a reed, MP and barrel to dial in some edge, and often brighter setups are more articulate and agile. It's a kinda win, win deal. I have a "paint stripping" setup that I use with my Lyrique Libertas, when the occasion calls for it. If I want a dark somber quality, swap MPs and reeds and use my Lyrique Speranza (similar to 576).
I believe Paul A is correct in his often voiced idea of the smooth air delivery system, implemented largely with an athletic and properly trained gut. As a 62-year old man, I still have a lot to learn and develop. I've been working on much better control and quantity of my air and my sore gut muscles prove it! Had similar soreness during my bass clarinet days. If your air delivery system is weak and rough, you have really limited yourself. That's why I look askance at circular breathing ... I don't know if your cheeks can provide the same push and support as you lungs and diaphragm, and therefore the ultimate quality of sound.
Just my three cents, again ...
Tom
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2015-07-01 19:23
Where I notice unusually (sometimes painfully) loud playing is during the warm-up period prior to rehearsal. Some players always start with a maximum-loudness flashy exercise.
Fortunately, not everyone does that. I used to sit next to a lady with a clarinet performance masters degree who warmed up playing exercises from her school days so softly that she was barely audible to others, even on very high notes. If you know you play well, and others know you play well, you do not have to advertise.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-01 20:16
TomS wrote:
> But
> maximum available SPL of the fundamental pitch, comparing an
> R13 and Lyrique Libertas is insignificant.
>
How do you know (measure) this?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-01 20:49
Just for the record. I too might endorse loudness as a POSITIVE factor. But don't miss what that means. If you can only reach a certain sound level and no more, THAT is your upward limit. So your overall dynamic sound palette is only so big. Naturally you should be able to play so soft that it fades to below feeling of vibration in the clarinet, but if you limit the upper end.....that's it, period. So the louder the better I say for greater variance.
As for what you need to do to get the air OUT, I wish to correct an observation from above. The lungs are just sacks. You can't expel the air if it's not IN there, but the sacks themselves are rather useless to push the air out. The same is true of the diaphragm. This rather large, bell shaped muscle whose job when contracted (the only ACTION a muscle can do besides relax) is to make the thoracic cavity bigger. That's it, period. This action forces (through physics) the lungs to take in MORE air. So if you want to talk about air support, you need to be talking about the abdominal muscles (and intercostals located between the ribs to a much smaller degree).
:-)
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-07-01 23:27
Mostly ears, but have two old Realistic (Radio Shack) SPL meters ... not calibrated, probably, but relative measurements are OK. "A" weighted measurements seems very close between instruments, with same MP/reed and player effort. Of course, the trick is blowing each instrument the same, even though the same MP/reed might be used. Differences in blowing resistance.
I am just guessing, because I am not a physics major, but remember that the input power, which is the breath, is the only thing that causes an acoustical output. All the power to produce the sound comes from the breath. If the velocity and quantity of air (I guess really it's quantity/time) that enters the horns are the same, I'd say the acoustical output is the same? Oh, some of the wind power might be lost as leaks or the amplitude and distribution of the overtones might be different (which causes subjective difference in loudness), or some of the vibrations might be dissipated as heat in the material rather than emerge as acoustical energy ... ?
Would be neat to try same setups on different horns and look at loudness and distribution of overtones ... I am sure someone has done this. Surely. Someone provide a link, please.
Come on scientists! Chime in! Someone knows this stuff inside out. I am a layperson on this subject.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-07-01 23:28)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-02 00:16
> But
> maximum available SPL of the fundamental pitch, comparing an
> R13 and Lyrique Libertas is insignificant.
But how did you isolate the fundamental from the harmonic content to make the measurement? Or am I misreading your comment?
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-07-02 01:50
Karl, a very good point. How did I separate the fundamental pitch and overtones? I didn't, at least not with electronic filters. Maybe I should delete that remark, it's not scientifically honest. Subjectively honest, but measurement is questionable.
The method used was that shear power comparisons were made in the lower chalumeau register, where, I suspect, not as many overtones are present. You will experience more subjective difference in the solo or clarion register between brands and models, I think. Both brands and models were very close on lower notes.
I am willing to admit that I could be full of blueberry muffins, wouldn't be the first time ...
Also, I may have unintentionally skewed the test because of slight differences in proximity of the meter and our ears. Better testing next time ...
I actually have the stuff to do some accurate portable recordings and later spectral analysis. I could use an Earthworks microphone and record it to my Sound Device 702. Could post the results to my Facebook page.
Tom
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-07-03 15:45
I can't really hear my clarinet when I play in wind bands - perhaps the players spoken of by the OP are playing loudly so they can hear themselves? My teacher says that for every hour you play in a big ensemble you need to play an hour to rebalance your tone
I try to follow the advice I was once given by a pro: You shouldn't be able to hear yourself when you play p, and should still be able to hear your partner when you play f
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: andy63
Date: 2015-07-03 22:25
Hi
Some people just play loud because they cant play softly.
It is nothing to do with their setup.
Regarding a clarinets "tuning" i have not yet come across a clarinet that is "in tune " i have however met many clarinet players that are in tune,and also a few that are not ,some of them blame their bad intonation on the clarinet or the clarinets maker when it is their own technique and ears that are the problem.
Regards Andy
Buffet Tosca ,Buffet Rc Greenline ,Yamaha YCl-881 Eb
Post Edited (2015-07-03 22:27)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-04 01:51
Andy,
>>"Regarding a clarinets "tuning" i have not yet come across a clarinet that is "in tune"
While I agree that no clarinet is spot on every tone, there are certainly clarinets that are more in tune than others. That difference can mean that you feel very comfortable on one instrument and very uncomfortable on another. One can be played with a fairly constant embouchure, the other has tones that have to be lipped up or down or fingered.
The clarinet is halfways between a piano and a violin. The player can move the tone a few cents.
>> "Some people just play loud because they cant play softly."
I'd guess they are not the most in tune players either.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-05 03:16
Silversourcerer,
Thanks for an interesting post.
How do you measure the quality of the intonation of a given clarinet? By intonation I mean relative intonation, how well the tones tune relatively to eachother.
Without measurement it is difficult to compare the intonation of two instruments. It will also be difficult to track improvement of the intonation when experimenting.
"Largely, how to get a woodwind to play in tune with itself had been scientifically solved by about 1960."
AFAIK, no one has been able to create a usable theoretical model of the clarinet. Today's clarinets are not the result of computer simulations and optimizations, but rather decades of collected experience using trial-and-error.
"In the 21st century, late technology and computer controlled manufacturing have a way of leveling the playing field to an almost mirror finish."
If you try a group of new Selmer Seles Bb:s you might believe that this is true. Then try a group of Selmer Seles A:s and you wonder what on Earth Selmer were doing when they put those instruments together.
Then try a group of Buffet Tosca Bb:s and compare their intonation to the Selmer Seles Bb:s and you wonder what the heck Buffet are doing.
While machining is used for making most of the clarinet body, the bore is still manually finished with reamers, like it was 60 years ago. I don't know if undercutting has been automized. 3D printing does not come close to the accuracy needed yet.
Post Edited (2015-07-05 03:23)
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2015-07-05 12:36
If we're having a Buffet vs other brands discussion, I'll weigh in my opinion - why not!
For many years I played on a magnificent pair of Leblanc Concerto clarinets. Excellent tuning but not without faults. Free-blowing and excellent projection. Very bright sound. However, I began to feel the sound was lacking in depth.
I switched to Buffet. Again not without intonation issues but more predictable than the Leblancs. This is why, in my opinion, overall Buffet instruments have better tuning. The sound has a bit more depth to it and they're extremely flexible.
To me, my Leblancs were like "THIS is how I sound" and Buffet is more "How would you like to sound today?"
As for projection, it's HOW you play as well. I sit next to a colleague who plays a Grabner K13 mouthpiece and he sounds amazing on it and has no trouble projecting. I tried the same mouthpiece and felt completely muted, it was an odd sensation. Gorgeous mouthpiece though.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2015-07-05 21:20
As I said, was just my opinion and experience. Take it or leave it. No need to post your out of proportion emotional reaction to it.
Post Edited (2015-07-06 02:12)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-06 12:31
Silversorcerer,
"Hand reamer" was your choice of words. I wrote "the bore is still manually finished with reamers". The video you found shows the process. These reamers will vary in size a few 0.01 mm and while they are used also in temperature and sharpness. I think this is the step in the process that only the most experienced craftsmen are allowed to do. The question is why the step is not automized. Maybe it is because the tool is changing and requires human touch.
A theoretical model of the clarinet would have been useful even without computers. People ran optimizations long before there were computers. The efficiency of the model can be tested by building an optimal clarinet accoding to the model and then testing it in real life.
I base my conclusions about tuning only on my own test results.
I haven't tested that many vintage clarinets (the oldest ones are one Marigaux SML from the 50s and one Leblanc LL from 1964). But it is my impression that not very much has happened. You might be right that most severe tuning problems were solved before that period. Maybe I should go to some collector of old clarinets and test them. Would be interesting.
The testing procedure I use is a modified version of the one described by Clark Fobes in this paper:
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/articles/TuningtheClarinetforPS.htm
The important thing is that the player should not look at the tuner while playing. The whole purpose is to measure the instrument's tuning, not the player's ability to play in tune.
I use a software tuner.
The choice of mouthpiece and barrel clearly affects the intonation. For each individual clarinet there will be an optimal combination of those two. But still, two optimized clarinets will differ in tuning quality, so there is really such a thing as an inherent tuning quality of a clarinet.
I'd be happy to exhange test results. Write me a mail (I can't find your mail address in your signature)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-06 20:34
Silversorcerer wrote:
> I have notiticed on some clarinets that the note produced with
> all keys open, including the throat trills and register key
> will produce a C that is a good match to the C above the break.
> But this is rarely shown as an alternative fingering for C.
Where would you use this fingering?
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-06 22:38
Silversorcerer wrote:
> On a chart published by Carl Fischer in 1898, this alternate C
> fingering is recommended when trilling with Bb. It is also
> given as a trilling fingering on a chart published in 1941 by
> Rubank. Obviously clarinets that had intonation accurate enough
> to use this fingering are a matter of documented historical
> record as well as documented existence as artifacts in the
> present. I've tested and found 4 so far. I am sure there will
> be others that will do this just as easily.
>
Well, I'm not surprised about a fingering with standard Bb plus the top two trill keys - that's a normal trill fingering. Some players use it to avoid crossing the break if the next note comes back down. Maybe I'm misreading - what do you mean by "all keys open?"
Karl
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