 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RobertWYu
Date: 2015-03-25 10:44
Hey guys,
I was working on my reeds today and a thought occurred to me. Why do reeds need to be wet before playing? I know that they have to, but I was curious about the science behind it, and why a dry reed won't play properly.
Secondly, I was wondering why we need to break in reeds. I notice that reeds that I break in and slowly play more over time have a more consistent and even tone, but I'm not sure what quite happens in the break in process.
And finally, I am curious about your guys' opinion on storing reeds in water and/or water and Listerine. I've heard that keeping your reeds constantly hydrated actually helps their lifespan.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-25 15:08
The second part of your question answers itself if you accept that reeds need moisture. It is the re-hydration of the reed that is important for its proper performance (and longevity of play) after sitting around for months (years) before getting to you.
I can't address the science, but I can say that over the years I have gotten MORE pro-moisture. Some double reed players actually do carry their reeds around swimming in a small container of water. It was a bassoonist/saxophonist friend of mine who would do the same for his sax reeds that convinced me to do MORE with water.
As I go through the break-in process (4-5 days of playing on a reed only a few minutes) I start off by dunking the whole reed (dunking the butt end and then letting the vamp end sit in the water) in water for about 2 1/2 minutes. I do let the reeds sit out for a bit before storing them. But then the reed case is placed in a plastic sandwich bag (loosely wrapped to allow ventilation) that I gently blow into to provide some moist air.
If you want to be more precise you could get some hydro case and a hygrometer to see exactly what the humidity is in the reed environment but the bottom line is that your reeds will function better and longer with moisture.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-25 16:16
Water makes wood soft, which makes it more pliable. Wood becomes soft when exposed to water because:
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/wood/water_effect.php
the cell walls of the wood, made of cellulose, have a higher chemical affinity for the hydrogen in water than the cellulose's own polymer chains.
The cellulose, now less strongly bonded to itself, having had water's hydrogen introduced to its chemical strands, is better able to untangle and stretch, making for less cellulose per unit area, decreasing the wood's strength. The science shows that while introducing more moisture breaks down more wood, that this cause and effect stop, and wood does not become weaker, once a certain point of moisture saturation is achieved.
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So there it is. Water: our reed's softener: as necessary as ultimately detrimental to the reed's strenth. It, along with the enzymes in saliva and the sheer physical abuse of vibration contribute to paradoxically bringing the reed to life, as sure as ultimately destroying it.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=401089&t=401089
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The second part of your question deals with reed storage. My personal approach is to keep my set of playing reeds in an air tight container (a zip lock big will do) with Boveda brand humidity packs. They come in different humidity levels; I choose 72%. These are the same exact thing you can purchase from Rico, who just repackages Boveda's packs. Better deals on the packs may be found at internet cigar shop accessories providers; or Boveda themselves http://www.bovedainc.com/. These packs are "two way." The absorb and release humidity, within reason, to keep the space they occupy at 72% humidity. But the bigger the space, and the more reeds being stored, the more of these packs (they come in different sizes) might be indicated.
My anecodtal findings are such that doing this not only aids in reed longevity, but keeps the reed's tip from developing the waves it sometimes does when allowed to completely dry and be rehydrated again. This wavy pattern results when the reed tip absorbs water at different rates, usually correcting itself once the tip has aborbed water equally throughout its width.
I am not a fan of products like ReedJuvinate being much better than standard humdity storage. My belief is based in part on the idea that if the product was all it was claimed to be, word of mouth would find everyone owning one. I also think it a bit alarmist in people's need to be concerned about reed sterility. I did though suggest it as an option the other day to a player who has medical conditions for which maintaining an extremely clean playing environment was indicated.
Final thought:
If you come across the Rico Reed Vault http://www.pro-music-news.com/html/11/e70113ri.htm and desire to purchase it, only to find out it's been discontinued, do note that is it nothing more than a rebranding of the Lock & Lock Brand 1.5 cup container http://www.amazon.com/Lock-1-5-Cups-Removable-Trays/dp/B0028LT9DI
(Disclaimer: zero affiliation with any companies mentioned here, including Rico, ReedJuvinate, Boveda, Lock & Lock, and Amazon.)
Post Edited (2015-03-25 16:41)
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-03-25 17:26
WPDave, Do you store your reeds and Boveda humidifiers in a zip lock bag together? Do you store any Boveda's in your case so that the humidity is controlled for your clarinet as well?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-25 19:16
Hi Roxann
While I personally do not use a zip lock bag as my container for reed control, there is nothing wrong with doing so, and if you do, you are correct: you store your reeds and Boveda humidifiers in a zip lock bag together, no different than Metropolitan Opera Orchestra Clarinetist Jessica Phillips Rieske shows here:
https://youtu.be/swVSeGSXjCk?t=24s
I prefer to use a very inexpensive clear plastic case from Iris brands, available at places like the Container Store and as shown here:
http://www.containerstore.com/shop/collections/hobby/partsBoxes?productId=10032173&breadcrumbPageTitle=Search
in their X-Large Hinged Box Product (I think: Product 10054861.) I tape two Boveda packs to the inside lid and date them with the day their packaging is first ripped open. When they get hard, I replace them. Inside the case I store reeds (or all brands) on their side, in a Vandoren plastic single reed holder, as found in individual packaged foil Vandoren reed boxes. By putting a piece of cardboard inside the middle of the box's depth, I can make 2 columns of reeds.
I don't claim any musical benefit to this method or sideways storage. It just lets me see which number reed I wish (I number them) faster than going through a plastic bag, while maximizing case storage.
I do not keep open Boveda packs in my clarinet case so as to benefit the instrument. Perhaps others do, although I haven't heard of this. As the pack is capable of giving off moisture, I'd be a little concerned it might damage the velvet in the case. Equally important, these packs work best, and last longest when they spend 99.9% of their time in the kind of sealed environment that a Lock & Lock Storage containter http://www.amazon.com/Lock-1-5-Cups-Removable-Trays/dp/B0028LT9DI provdes, than a clarinet case is clearly not, exceptions like this, which I believe most clarinetists do not need, not withstanding: http://www.lomaxclassic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=216&zenid=247620ed1a5cc423cd43dba220c8faf0
I might suggest use of a Dampit if you have such concerns with your clarinet, although I don't use one. http://shop.weinermusic.com/STANDARD-OBOE_-CLARINET_-ENGLISH-HORN-DAMPIT/productinfo/XKD1/
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-25 19:16
Hi Roxann
While I personally do not use a zip lock bag as my container for reed control, there is nothing wrong with doing so, and if you do, you are correct: you store your reeds and Boveda humidifiers in a zip lock bag together, no different than Metropolitan Opera Orchestra Clarinetist Jessica Phillips Rieske shows here:
https://youtu.be/swVSeGSXjCk?t=24s
I prefer to use a very inexpensive clear plastic case from Iris brands, available at places like the Container Store and as shown here:
http://www.containerstore.com/shop/collections/hobby/partsBoxes?productId=10032173&breadcrumbPageTitle=Search
in their X-Large Hinged Box Product (I think: Product 10054861.) I tape two Boveda packs to the inside lid and date them with the day their packaging is first ripped open. When they get hard, I replace them. Inside the case I store reeds (or all brands) on their side, in a Vandoren plastic single reed holder, as found in individual packaged foil Vandoren reed boxes. By putting a piece of cardboard inside the middle of the box's depth, I can make 2 columns of reeds.
I don't claim any musical benefit to this method or sideways storage. It just lets me see which number reed I wish (I number them) faster than going through a plastic bag, while maximizing case storage.
I do not keep open Boveda packs in my clarinet case so as to benefit the instrument. Perhaps others do, although I haven't heard of this. As the pack is capable of giving off moisture, I'd be a little concerned it might damage the velvet in the case. Equally important, these packs work best, and last longest when they spend 99.9% of their time in the kind of sealed environment that a Lock & Lock Storage containter http://www.amazon.com/Lock-1-5-Cups-Removable-Trays/dp/B0028LT9DI provdes, than a clarinet case is clearly not, exceptions like this, which I believe most clarinetists do not need, not withstanding: http://www.lomaxclassic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=216&zenid=247620ed1a5cc423cd43dba220c8faf0
I might suggest use of a Dampit if you have such concerns with your clarinet, although I don't use one. http://shop.weinermusic.com/STANDARD-OBOE_-CLARINET_-ENGLISH-HORN-DAMPIT/productinfo/XKD1/
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-25 19:16
Hi Roxann
While I personally do not use a zip lock bag as my container for reed control, there is nothing wrong with doing so, and if you do, you are correct: you store your reeds and Boveda humidifiers in a zip lock bag together, no different than Metropolitan Opera Orchestra Clarinetist Jessica Phillips Rieske shows here:
https://youtu.be/swVSeGSXjCk?t=24s
I prefer to use a very inexpensive clear plastic case from Iris brands, available at places like the Container Store and as shown here:
http://www.containerstore.com/shop/collections/hobby/partsBoxes?productId=10032173&breadcrumbPageTitle=Search
in their X-Large Hinged Box Product (I think: Product 10054861.) I tape two Boveda packs to the inside lid and date them with the day their packaging is first ripped open. When they get hard, I replace them. Inside the case I store reeds (or all brands) on their side, in a Vandoren plastic single reed holder, as found in individual packaged foil Vandoren reed boxes. By putting a piece of cardboard inside the middle of the box's depth, I can make 2 columns of reeds.
I don't claim any musical benefit to this method or sideways storage. It just lets me see which number reed I wish (I number them) faster than going through a plastic bag, while maximizing case storage.
I do not keep open Boveda packs in my clarinet case so as to benefit the instrument. Perhaps others do, although I haven't heard of this. As the pack is capable of giving off moisture, I'd be a little concerned it might damage the velvet in the case. Equally important, these packs work best, and last longest when they spend 99.9% of their time in the kind of sealed environment that a Lock & Lock Storage containter http://www.amazon.com/Lock-1-5-Cups-Removable-Trays/dp/B0028LT9DI provdes, than a clarinet case is clearly not, exceptions like this, which I believe most clarinetists do not need, not withstanding: http://www.lomaxclassic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=216&zenid=247620ed1a5cc423cd43dba220c8faf0
I might suggest use of a Dampit if you have such concerns with your clarinet, although I don't use one. http://shop.weinermusic.com/STANDARD-OBOE_-CLARINET_-ENGLISH-HORN-DAMPIT/productinfo/XKD1/
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-03-25 19:41
Hi Roxann
(Note: previously I referred to Rico products which I believe are now part of the D'Addario line of musical products.)
While I personally do not use a zip lock bag as my container for reed control, there is nothing wrong with doing so, and if you do, you are correct: you store your reeds and Boveda humidifiers in a zip lock bag together, no different than Metropolitan Opera Orchestra Clarinetist Jessica Phillips Rieske shows here:
https://youtu.be/swVSeGSXjCk?t=24s
I prefer to use a very inexpensive clear plastic case from Iris brands, available at places like the Container Store and as shown here:
http://www.containerstore.com/shop/collections/hobby/partsBoxes?productId=10032173&breadcrumbPageTitle=Search
in their X-Large Hinged Box Product (I think: Product 10054861.) I tape two 8 gram size Boveda packs (that's the size D'Addario sells) to the inside lid and date them with the day their packaging is first ripped open. When they get hard, I replace them. Inside the case, I store reeds (of all brands) on their side, in a Vandoren plastic single reed holder, as found in individual packaged foil Vandoren reed boxes. By putting a piece of cardboard inside the middle of the box's depth, I can make 2 columns of reeds.
I don't claim any musical benefit to this method of sideways storage or my container of choice. It just lets me see which number reed I wish (I number them) faster than going through a plastic bag, while maximizing case storage. People report that the less you keep the opened humidity packs exposed to the elements, the longer the humdity packs last. (And when I say "opened," I mean taking the humdity pack out of its shrink wrap container, like one takes out a Vandoren reed, NOT opening the humdity pack itself, which is not consistent with its use.)
I do not keep open Boveda packs in my clarinet case so as to benefit the instrument. Perhaps others do, although I haven't heard of this. As the pack is capable of giving off moisture, I'd be a little concerned that it might damage the velvet in the case. Equally important, these packs work best, and last longest when they spend 99.9% of their time in the kind of sealed environment that a Lock & Lock Storage containter http://www.amazon.com/Lock-1-5-Cups-Removable-Trays/dp/B0028LT9DI provides, rather than a clarinet case is clearly not, exceptions like this, which I believe most clarinetists do not need, not withstanding: http://www.lomaxclassic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=216&zenid=247620ed1a5cc423cd43dba220c8faf0
I might also argue that you'd need more than a few of these packs to control humidty in the relatively large space of a closed clarinet case.
I might suggest use of a Dampit if you have such concerns with your clarinet, although I don't use one. http://shop.weinermusic.com/STANDARD-OBOE_-CLARINET_-ENGLISH-HORN-DAMPIT/productinfo/XKD1/
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Robert, I never addressed this.
"I was wondering why we need to break in reeds. I notice that reeds that I break in and slowly play more over time have a more consistent and even tone, but I'm not sure what quite happens in the break in process."
I agree with your findings on longevity here, and that this observation seems to be concurred by many who advocate reed break in methodologies, which almost invariably promote controlled limits to play and water in the [new] reed.
Sadly, I don't have a precise scientific foundation to support this, but I like to conceptualize it as our way, as players, to conform to, but not extend beyond the flexibility that nature has put into [once] living things like cane reeds.
The application of controlled amounts of water to the new reed, I believe, is something the reed is capable of handling and recovering from likely because it was integral to its survival as a living plant. As the reed is played, I believe it becomes somewhat less pourous, allowing it to be exposed to water for longer periods of time.
Conversely, playing the reed to saturation upon initial use may expand its water absorption abilities beyond that it can mostly recover from, affecting its ability to play for us.
Again, this is theory, not proven science--which may exist--but I am not citing.
Reed humidity storage is not some golden ticket to clarinet play: practice is. That said, I do find that keeping reeds in a humidity controlled environment allows me to pick a reed I played, and find it more likely to be in the same condition I left it in, than if I let it dry out. Tons of gifted players have never, nor don't today, use such techniques. Plenty of players play the living daylights out of a new reed and don't report problems with this approach.
(No affiliation to products or vendors mentioned in this thread.)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-03-26 00:23
People have diffent ideas on soaking or not soaking reeds. I have some good material on reeds and reed warping on my website, check it out. I give what I consider some very good advice based on my professional playing and teaching why you should never over soak a reed, never let the lower half of the reed with the bark get wet at all and why you should never keep your reeds too moist yet never allow them to get too dry either. Check it out, experiment and make up your own mind based on your experience over time. I based my findings of trying everything over many years of professional playing. Remember, the reason a reed warps, that's not sealing flat on the facing of the mouthpiece, is because all wood, any type of wood, warps when constantly going from wet to dry so humidity control is the answer. Never letting the reed get "dry" but never letting it get really"wet" either. Check it out.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-03-26 01:24
While I wet my oboe reeds slightly, I never soak them very long in water as they become too hard and stiff to play when soaked. I also don't soak clarinet reeds very much as per Mr. Palanker's comments.
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