 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-21 22:02
Search the board though I have, I haven't found this answer.
The question is--from a scientific standpoint, that considers the material we use, (cane), and the physics involved in its vibration as our air column energizes it, why do we add moisture to cane reeds prior to playing them?
Sure, answers like "because we're not stuipid," or "because that's what works best," to "have you every played on dry cane," are all worthy, but off point.
And yes, lack of water may very well make the reed more brittle (physically and metaphorically in its sound) but then why does water make the reed less physically brittle? Is it that H2O facilitates the more uniform transfer of energy across the reed so that the shock to a portion of the reed is better distributed across the entire reed. And if so, might that make the case for wetting the entire reed, a process many think is a bad idea so as to minimize chances for reed table warp?
Is there some analogy to the detonation of a explosive under water being less felt by those nearby than when detonated above ground, as the water better absorbs and transfers the energy to the entire detonation pool?
Is the water much like the gel used in Sonogram or Cardiac Defibrillator paddels in that it facilitates the transmission of energy--in my examples sound and electrical energy respectively?
Does it have to do with the structure of the cane, and it being composed of tiny tubes that through capillary action can move water through the reed, and make the reed's vibration more uniform and shared by the "business end" of the reed?
Is it this lack of tiny tubes in the internal structure of synthetic reeds, at least some injection molded, that explains why these reeds don't benefit from wetting?
I want to say that the Doctor once wrote of toying with a proprietary but unmarketed electrolyte that showed conclusive improvement in cane reed performance.
Please, science first, anecdotes second. And no recommendations of dipping reeds in toxins, no matter how beneficial such chemicals may show to benefit performance.
Thanks all.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-21 22:38
Transmission of energy is probably not the answer on this small a scale. Although that brings up an interesting memory. There was once a time that part of soldier training (as late as WWII ?), in an attempt to simulate the incredible sound of artillery fire, trainees submerged their heads in a barrel of water while the trainer fired a pistol next to the barrel.
I'm pretty sure with reeds, like any other wood fibre, there is expansion of material as well as an extra degree of elasticity that comes with the cells filled with water (water also makes the human hair more elastic as well). Since the job of a reed is to vibrate back and forth while pretty much maintaining the original shape at rest, elasticity is a key ingredient.
Of course you cannot avoid wetting the tip since it will reside in you mouth. So, for me, uniformity of the material's property can only be helpful. The question for me is, what makes the quality deteriorate so predictably? Perhaps like an old board, the reed become more brittle and incapable of remaining as elastic as it was prior to all the wetting and drying out over time.
Synthetic reeds would not benefit from moisture because water does not enter INTO the structure and change its elasticity.
But lets be honest here. Synthetic materials were not constructed to be reeds. We just monkeyed around with materials until we found some that kinda worked like cane. Perhaps some day micro analysis and will yield the precise coefficients of this elasticity and then we will create the ideal synthetic material to match cane. But until someone puts the time and money into that (I'd rather see a colonization of Mars first) we'll just have to put up with reeds.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-21 17:45
Bagpipes and the like are designed to work with dry reeds as there's no direct contact between the reed and the player's mouth or saliva.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-21 22:51
I don't know the answer to your question, though in my quest (other thread) to find a way to make my reeds play how I want, in a consistent manner, I've read too much and experimented too much already- I just want something that works every time, then I honestly don't care much why.
(And that is spoken as an engineer with some specialization in the behavior of materials under load and how they vibrate. Or at least in the software used to analyze that behavior.)
Why is there so much variation in the advice how and how much to wet reeds while breaking in (if breaking in is needed- that's another topic)- saliva, tap water, gin? None, 5 sec, 20 min? Tip only, 1/2 inch? 1 inch? entire reed? Same question when prepping reed to play. And heaven forbid you have to pick up and play a horn that's been sitting 30 min since you prepped it. Did it dry out? Does it matter? Is your mouth wet enough to recover it in 30 sec before you have to hit that first solo note? (That's me in a church setting!)
And why do so many players tell you to seal the reed (front and back? back only?) by rubbing with nose oil, chapstick, beeswax? Are we trying to keep out moisture? Or is that a bad thing? Other places say do not use Chapstick because it will RUIN your reed.
These are all reasons I started and stuck with Legeres for several years. I'm back on cane for now to get the consistent play I need and want... I couldn't afford a new Legere every couple of days. But man- too many choices of how to use cane reeds.
I will figure out what works for me and report that here on BBoard. But perhaps there are no generalizations possible in the clarinet world.
Sorry for the rant... you hit a nerve, LOL.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-02-21 18:38
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> But lets be honest here. Synthetic materials were not
> constructed to be reeds. We just monkeyed around with
> materials until we found some that kinda worked like cane.
Of course, to be completely honest, cane did not evolve to become clarinet reed material, either.
We're just doing with synthetics what in more primitive times people did with natural products - trying to find something that does what we want.
To respond to Russ and, also, in a way to Stan, people tend to repeat behaviors that have been successful (have been "positively reinforced") in the past. Could we design clarinet reeds that would play as well without being wet? Very possibly - Chris's reminder that bagpipe reeds aren't used wet is a good example.
There is a free-lance theater player in Philadelphia who, I've been told, thinks there's something wrong with a clarinet pr sax player who needs to wet his reed to play them. I'm pretty sure his reeds are not exactly of the same strength and profile as the ones I use, which absolutely will not play acceptably when dry. But, presumably, he's found a reed/mouthpiece combination that works that way. Probably in pre-synthetic days theater doublers needed to be able to do this.
All the stuff players *insist* on as necessary to good playing (read Stan's post for the long but non-exhaustive list) comes from players' experience, not science. The zeal with which some players dogmatically promote their truths in everything from instrument maintenance to how and with what to wet a reed, how much of the reed must or must not be wet, where a ligature needs to or must not press on the reed, what shape an embouchure must be, where on the tongue must touch where on the reed, or any number of other practices is based almost entirely on those players' own successful experiences. "It works well for me" easily becomes "this is how it must be done."
The best approach to scientific inquiry into this might be to try to explain how a reed's vibration happens at all. Then any number of conditions could be tested to find which ones really matter and, hopefully, why. I'm sure some of this has already been done by acoustical and other physicists, but maybe not to the greatest depth possible, because we as musicians for the most part don't really care about the deepest explanations - we only want practices that work. In the long run we mostly just look to our predecessors' successful experiences and emulate those.
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-21 23:47
Surely the reason is quite logical.
1. A moist reed plays differently from a dry one.
2. Any cane reed is going to become moist as you play it.
3. So you want to get the reed into that final stable state before you start playing it.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-21 18:56
I agree with all you've said, Karl- and it's darned frustrating.
My most recent positive finding on how to temporarily restore my cane reeds' ability to play ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) - which is to massage the moisture out of the tip (I'm guessing that's why it works)- seems to say it's bad for too much moisture to enter the reed and it would be good to keep some or all of it out. That makes me want to try all the possible (and safe!) sealers like beeswax (waiting for a special trip to Sally's beauty supply to get some).
I've never found a well balanced (for me) Rico Plasticover- though I tried. I really wish I could take a Vandoren blue 2.5 that I've tweaked until perfect for me for the moment (they come and go- then I cry)- and coat it in the same plastic while dry. Would that do it (make it good and semi-permanent)? If so I'd pay $$$ for the equipment to do that. I'd try clear nail polish or urethane furniture sealer if my esthetician/chemist daughter hadn't scared the daylights out of me over the chemical risks.
BTW there's a doctoral dissertation out there from Ohio State 1995, "The Clarinet Reed: An Introduction to its Biology, Chemistry, and Physics" by Donald Jay Casadonte, on the whole reed mechanics subject. Interesting read but I didn't in my skimming (it's over 400 pages!) see anything particularly practical for me. https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/osu1210865836/attachment
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-22 00:34)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-02-21 19:26
Do you mean Donald Casadonte's dissertation from 1995? If so, I have it - it is very technical and I've only read sections of it.
Donald Casadonte seems to follow this BB and occasionally posts comments.
I think the problem with sealing a really good reed is that the sealer itself would probably add enough mass to change the reed's vibrating characteristics.
Thanks for reminding me about the Casadonte volume. If that wasn't the one you had in mind, I'd like to know what else you've found.
Karl
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-22 00:38
Quote:
All the stuff players *insist* on as necessary to good playing [...] comes from players' experience, not science. The zeal with which some players dogmatically promote their truths in everything [...] is based almost entirely on those players' own successful experiences.
Thanks, Karl. This is so true.
I recall a suggestion on the Rovner site that reeds be submerged in water for hours before being played. I've read one source who swears that reeds should be stored in mineral oil. I'm going to go out on a limb and state my belief that moisture does nothing to enhance sound production but because (as Norman points out) a cane reed will absorb moisture anyway it makes sense to get the moisture level consistent in the acoustically active part of the reed to avoid warping and swelling which definitely affect playability.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-22 01:09
All I want is to forget about the mechanics and concentrate on the music.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-22 01:19
Bruno: not appreciated.
Mr Aviles: Thanks for taking a crack at it. Maybe water in the tubes that comprise cane give it elasticity as air does an inflatable mattress.
Chris: thanks for your observation. I should have realized that about bagpipes but hadn't considered it. It does raise some questions.
Stan: We all feel your frustration. Unsatisfactory reeds coupled with mixed advice on improving them makes us feel unable to do much.
I feel answers to problems using science is the only credible means to get a handle on the problem-- not because I enjoy this area of study over the kind that happens with a music stand. I'm a pragmatic player: if clarinet advice works I'm glad to follow it blindly, only asking questions maybe later. But if 15 people have 16 opinions on reeds: somebody's not exactly right and science can not only show who, but why.
Also Stan: thanks for the link .
And I do agree that water is like medicine for cane. It has do be delivered in proper dosage.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-22 02:03
.. and of course if you want your clarinet to sound like a bagpipe you now know what to do.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-02-21 21:22
The simple and logical answer is you wet the cane reed to make it pliable.
No complex scientific reasoning require , just practicability.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-02-21 21:24)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-02-22 02:26
A reed won't play well unless uniformly wet or dry.
As moisture is inevitable when you take something in your mouth, the consequence is that you have to wet the complete reed, very much as Norman observed.
(dunno what happens when a bagpipe drone reed is half licked)
--
Ben
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-22 03:33
I once read about an entire album of bagpipe music being mastered with the tape loaded backwards, and nobody noticed until the LP's were on the store shelves. I suppose that could also happen with certain classical clarinet works- not that I have anything particular in mind.
Sorry- I suppose that qualifies as an "anecdote".
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-22 03:34)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-22 03:46
Wait a minute !!!
Stan, you're in Orlando......FLORIDA....... and you're having problems with reeds?!!? I wanna here from folks in Arizona and New Mexico and find out what THEY do to preserve their sanity.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-22 05:47
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Stan, you're in Orlando......FLORIDA....... and you're having
> problems with reeds?!!?
Gee, I didn't know our climate was supposed to help me out. Maybe I should be storing my reeds outside next to the retention pond?
Well, that does open up some whole new lines of argument. Maybe New Orleans is a better place for jazz clarinet than NYC or Chicago or Philly or Vegas or Denver (forgive me if you're from one of those places), because of heat and humidity? ...nothing to do with culture or history?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-22 08:22
Barry Vincent wrote:
> The simple and logical answer is you wet the cane reed to make it pliable.
> No complex scientific reasoning require , just practicability.
Your response doesn't go to why it makes the reed more pliable but was an excellent source of departure for me truly get to the bottom of this question as I started to think about how craftsman bend wood by first exposing it to hot moisture (steam).
And you're right, no scientific reasoning is required: I just requested it.
Here's what I now understand to be the answer.
Water makes wood soft, which makes it, as stated, more pliable. Wood becomes soft because
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/wood/water_effect.php
the cell walls of the wood, made of cellulose, have a higher chemical affinity for the hydrogen in water than the cellulose's own polymer chains.
The cellulose, now less strongly bonded to itself, having had water's hydrogen introduced to its chemical strands, is better able to untangle and stretch, making for less cellulose per unit area, decreasing the wood's strength. The science shows that while introducing more moisture breaks down more wood, that this cause and effect stop, and wood does not become weaker, once a certain point of moisture saturation is achieved.
====
So there it is. Water: our reed's softener: as necessary as ultimately detrimental to the reed's strenth. It, along with the enzymes in saliva and the sheer physical abuse of vibration contribute to paradoxically bringing the reed to life, as sure as ultimately destroying it.
As for those who advocate keeping reeds moist once placed into rotation, perhaps the trauma of drying and rewetting reeds is more severe than the breakdown of the reeds by constant exposure to water, given the aforementioned limitations of water content being able to break down wood anymore after a point of saturation.
I'm still not ready to keep my reeds in water when not in use, just humidity.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-02-22 09:53
It's simple! Reeds that have dried on the mouthpiece stick to the mouthpiece table and don't vibrate well. A dry reed on a dry table also doesn't vibrate well. Try wetting the table and putting a dry reed on it. I just did it with two reeds that have dried for weeks and they played well on a wetted table.
The whole reed moves a very tiny bit as it vibrates and if you constrict a dried half of it on a dry table, it is not able to move.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-22 10:05
Russ- That also all makes sense- moisture does many things to a cane reed, but primarily short term, it reduces stiffness. Alas, not uniformly nor always predictably.
As players, we can hope for some latitude- a zone of forgiveness, if you will- a range of wetness that is nicely playable. Otherwise, we will always need our reed to be a little bit wetter or a little bit dryer, and never really OK. Then we are like that miserable person with no temperature tolerance, who is forever adjusting the thermostat up or down in hopes of getting the "perfect" temperature.
I had high initial hopes for Legere reeds, and wasted (I guess) $$$ (about 30 of them) and years trying to build my playing around them. But I found they drifted too- played differently first day from 2nd and 3rd (I suppose from plastic fatigue issues), different when cold than when warmed up. I did many things to them with trimmers, abrasives, boiling water, even dry ice!- trying to restore nice play to reeds that had "died" after 5-10 hours of play. I kept trying because sometimes it worked and I thought I could make a repeatable routine. But they always went bad again and ultimately I gave up. And now I'm back on cane for better or for worse. At least if they have short life it will not break the bank, just my heart.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-22 05:10)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-22 12:06
> The simple and logical answer is you wet the cane reed to make it pliable.
> No complex scientific reasoning require , just practicability.
I've been using Legeres for years but I have a nice box of cane reeds (Rue LePic) which always worked well for me. I put an unplayed one one my mouthpiece this morning without wetting it first. It responded immediately, played well up and down the instrument.
I don't doubt that the eventual absorption of moisture affects the pliability of the reed but not to the extent of having any effect on tone and response in my experience — unless, as has been pointed out, it creates uneven warping or curling.
Certainly synthetic reeds play without absorbing water but Rico Plasticovers (and bagpipes!) suggest that moisture is not necessary for a cane reeds to perform satisfactorily either.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-22 12:31
While bagpipe reeds are not in direct contact with moisture, the air from the bag is extremely humid, and in addition is the normal condensate found in any woodwind. The reed is not as wet as a clarinet reed, but it is by no means dry. It would be more appropriate to compare with bellows operated pipes, where the lungs are not part of the system.
Tony F.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-22 18:27
Tony, do pipers notice a difference as the reeds gradually absorb moisture and approach some sort of "field capacity"?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-22 20:09
Its almost 60 years since I played the pipes, but as I recall there was a period when I started to play when the sound was shrill, and after a couple of minutes it became more mellow. This would also apply to the drones as well. I can't be sure if it was moisture or temperature related. Perhaps somebody with more recent experience than mine could comment.
Tony F.
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