 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-15 09:09
Do most people apply bore oil?
I have never read the buffet user manual so I don't know what it says, but Yamaha manual appear to suggest that you do about four times a year.
What is your routine and what is the general experience.
All I do is swab it clean after each use and use high quality paper towel to wipe it down clean and get it as dry as possible before it is put away after each time it is played.
The shop guy tells me the clarinet appear to have been well cared for... and I know I take care of it like a baby. But I don't know if majority of the pros oil their bore as part of routine maintenance. Has anyone not applied bore oil over 5 or 10 years without any issues? Or, is this a crazy talk...
My son's clarinet is now 17 month old and has never been oiled in the bore and has not had any issues other than tarnished nickel keys, which will be re-plated with silver shortly.
Post Edited (2015-02-15 09:39)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-15 09:43
Different people have different opinions about whether or not you should oil the bore (and, if you should, then how often?). The repair technician I go to usually oils the bore for me whenever I bring in one of my clarinets for adjustment. I don't see any harm in it; oil repels moisture which would otherwise be absorbed by the wood, potentially causing warping or cracking.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-15 12:21
Opinions vary widely (and wildly). I've never oiled the bores of any of my clarinets, nor have the repairmen I've gone to (the best in Philadelphia) ever recommended it.
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-15 14:17
I oil the bores of my wood clarinets once a year. It's all they seem to need. I've never had one crack.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-15 14:39
I oil my clarinets when I feel they need it.
When I service or overhaul a clarinet or oboe I oil the bore while the keys are off (likewise with my own). So any oil that gets into the toneholes can be cleaned or spread around them evenly depending on which toneholes they are.
I use a metal rod with cotton wrapped on one end to apply the oil to the bore. It also helps to remove the speaker tube to get better access, although the thumb bush can stay in place if it's glued in well and you'll be able to get the oiling rod in from both ends of the top joint to coat the entire bore. Then use a mop to spread the oil evenly in the bore and use a cotton bud to clean the oil from toneholes. Wipe the tonehole bedplaces with a cotton bud dipped in alcohol to be sure they're not contaminated with oil as that can make the pads sticky.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-15 17:52
Oiling is too easy. Take a hanky swab and get it damp with bore oil (commercially available bore oil or something like 100% orange oil). Look down the bore to see what it looks like dry (some bores are shiny - you want to be able to compare with wet). Draw the damp swab through once (maybe twice); look down the bore (you'll see what a light damp coating of bore oil looks like). Let it sit overnight. The next day look down the bore. If the whole bore looks exactly like it did dry (before the light coat) then you can repeat each evening until you get a little 'leftover' bore oil sitting in the bore (usually accumulates at the bottom (whatever the bottom is when sitting in the case). Just run a dry swab through to get out the excess and VOILA, you have completely oiled your bore.
One simple fact we ALL know from childhood gets lost whenever we put the word "clarinet" in the conversation: Oil and water DON'T MIX. I would rather have a bore oiled clarinet than a clarinet that soaks up enzyme filled condensation. And we all should know that wood reacts more violently to water than oil.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-02-15 19:07
I agree with Paul, and I oil mine about 4 times a year. I like Bore Doctor from The Doctor's Products, but there are also other good organic ones including those from Naylor's Custom Wind Repair and Muncy Winds.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-15 19:13
Paul, if you apply the oil on multiple nights, do you still play that instrument in between your multiple bore oil application?
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2015-02-16 18:14
try walnut oil. First on the barrel. Apply a (very) small amount with your fingers, both inside and outside, and not enough to cause the oil to run. Let it set overnight. If you like the results -- a dry , nonsticky finish, you can proceed with the bore, etc.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-02-21 18:40
Disclaimer (I make an sell a plant oil mixture bore oil for woodwinds and stringed instrument fret boards and genuine Grenadilla oil)
If I were looking for a bore oil, if indeed I considered it necessary to oil the bore, I would take a more scientific approach to my selection than hearsay or old wife's tales about what to use or the suspected benefits from a particular oil.
First, I would dismiss using a petroleum product like the clear mineral oil being sold for bore oil because petroleum oils have been proven to be not good for wood in the long term and they really do not enter the structure of wood.
Second, I would investigate the fatty acid composition of a suggested oil to determine if it would comply with the natural oil in the wood. Two oils can form a mixture (even distribution of one oil with another) or a stable or unstable emulsion (where each oil remains separate and may come out of the emulsion unless there is an emulsifying agent present). Grenadilla wood has a pretty uncommon fatty acid composition and several unspecified organic components making it unique in the plant oil domain.
Third, I would inquire of my candidate oil or oil mixture has a historical thread as a wood conditioner or preservative. Does the oil interact and sequester water which will maintain a moisture balance in the wood?
Fourth, will the oil or oil mixture autoxidize or turn rancid over time. There are charts for different oils measured by the Racimat method or machine which tell the oxidation potential of many oils. If an antioxidant is needed it should be shown to be powerful and long lasting in plant oils (vitamin E works well in animal fat and oil systems but not so well in plant oils).
Fifth, research or document that a candidate oil or oil mixture will penetrate deeply into instrument wood. Yes, this is scientifically provable!
Sixth, are there any commercial products that satisfy and answer questions 1-5? If I have been using an oil already is there a better product that is well documented?
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: NB
Date: 2015-02-21 19:39
In my home country the most popular oil among all clarinetists (opera, symphony etc.) for oiling the bore or making oil baths is the burdock oil. It is cheap, and it really works. It is actually available in the US too.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-21 20:42
I oil our clarinets twice a year with a change of seasons.
I would be very cautious of applying any unsaturated oils, such as walnut oil, which are prone to oxidation and polymerization - both are unwanted in the depth of the bore...
Paper towels may possibly leave some fibers that can clutter tone holes.
What I found to work very nicely is to use first a cotton swab to absorb most of the moisture and then a silk swab to remove the rest of the moisture and possible fiber debris from the cotton swab.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-02-22 07:22
(Same disclaimer)
I have never heard of using Burdock oil as a bore oil after four decades of natural product chemistry but I never say never unless I investigate further. Unfortunately Burdock oil has about 20% saturated fatty acids and 80% mono and poly unsaturated fatty acids. The unstaturatd fatty acids are similar to olive oil but also highly prone to autoxidation and rancidity. Burdock root oil (not leaves) has been used in herbal medicine for centuries but not as an effective bore oil that I can find.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: NB
Date: 2015-02-22 08:27
Well, many times I heard of people successfully using it without getting rancid and I used it myself.
I do not know if there are any ingredients to be added for an oil bath to prevent getting rancid.
But when just oiling the bore (few drops of oil) it is clear that the oil does not stay in the clarinet body for a long time.
It penetrates the body of the clarinet from inside, coming out on the surface and gets eventually (pretty fast) washed away with the moisture.
It is really a short term, so if the oil itself is OK, there is almost no way for it to get rancid there in the clarinet.
Yes, there may be no "chemical documentation" for it.
But people have been using it with success
for perhaps more than four decades.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2015-02-22 19:20
@ The Doctor: "Fifth, research or document that a candidate oil or oil mixture will penetrate deeply into instrument wood. Yes, this is scientifically provable!"
A long time ago I worked on oaken boats with linseed oil, drying vegetable oil, sometimes thinned with natural turpentine, and more recently used it on clarinets. I had the (unscientific) impression that it wouldn't penetrate into the wood more than fractions of a millimetre so that I doubted that oil baths over days would be of any effect. On the other hand I still think that a drying vegetable oil that more or less seals the inner wood surface might be of more benefit than mineral oils.
Some time ago in this forum I already suggested that somebody might saw a clarinet through and look how deep the oil had penetrated. A more qualified scientific proof might be interesting.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-02-23 14:50
FWIW I have done a related experiment. We put a boxwood barrel blank (bore drilled but the outside not turned down to size) under vacuum in a bath of tung oil overnight and then sawed it in half. Visual inspection showed that the oil penetrated 2 or 3 mm.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-02-23 17:27
Attachment: photomicrograph1.gif (82k)
(Disclaimer - I make and sell a plant derived oil mixture - Bore Doctor and Fret Doctor and genuine Grenadilla Oil).
I feel that the bore wood should not be sealed and allowed to "breathe" because over time the sealant may be washed or abraded away leaving an area prone to greater water absorption and therefore greater hydrostatic pressure in that area which can make the wood more prone to uneven stresses and cracking.
The source of the "Old Wife's Tale" about oil not penetrating probably comes from using the wrong kind of oil !!!
The proof that certain kinds of oil will penetrate Grenadilla wood is an experiment that I performed several years ago. A ten centimeter square stick of Grenadilla wood was coated with oil that had been tagged with a fluorescent marker then allowed to stand overnight at room temperature. Ultra thin (a few microns) slices of wood from the middle of the stick were made with a medical microtome (a device to make slices of tissue for microscopic pathological examination) with diamond blade. These slices were examined using a fluorescent microscope with ultra violet light illumination. The results of this examination showed that fluorescent oil penetrated at least 30 mm into the granadilla wood - see photomicrograph (the red dot is the surface of the wood and the blue staining is the labeled oil, the brown is the wood structure). So, IMO, certain types of oils can penetrate Grenadilla wood deeply.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2015-02-23 19:26)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-02-23 19:22
The Doctor wrote:
> A one centimeter square stick of Grenadilla wood was coated with
> oil that had been tagged with a fluorescent marker then allowed
> to stand overnight at room temperature.
> The results of this
> examination showed that fluorescent oil penetrated at least 30
> mm into the granadilla wood
Should it be "3 mm" into the 1 cm piece?
Was this penetration perpendicular to the wood fibers?
It should be possible to weigh the wood before and after the oil treatment to see how much oil it absorbs. It will tell nothing about how deep it penetrates though.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-02-23 19:29
Before I oil the bore I usually store the clarinet in a dry environment for a day or two (in my case, inside the cabinet on top of my refridgerator). The simple rationale is that it will let the water in the wood disappear and make room for the oil.
Is this good or bad? I have no backing science.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-02-23 19:34
(Same disclaimer)
As corrected it was a large 10 cm stick of Grenadilla wood. The microtome could not slice the 10 cm thickness so the slices were at most 4-5 cm. I used this large a piece to see just how deeply the oil would penetrate in a thick piece of wood which might be different than a thin piece possibly. Weighing the wood would not show the depth of penetration which I wanted to prove. The wood was not weighed.
The water in the wood is buffered by the plant oil and should not change dramatically with limited drying. Drying IMHO is not a good idea.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2015-02-23 19:36)
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-23 20:23
I agree that sealing the bore does not seem as a good idea.
Ideally, I try to do the main oiling of the bore with the start of the cold seasons, when humidity drops and drier bore may benefit from more protection.
Would using an oil-soluble dye and then just opening the slab and examining the newly opened surface with a metallurgical microscope be a more amenable experiment?
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-02-23 23:12
Considering the structure of the wood, I would imagine that oiling the tone holes (or any other area where cut wood fibers meet moisture) would be more important than oiling the bore.
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-24 08:00
There is a lot of literature about oiling vs. not oiling and organic oil vs. petroleum based. Rather that write pages of what others have already done the research to, lets take a look at what we are trying to accomplish by oiling. We want to protect and preserve the wood. Wood that dries out can shrink and distort along with form cracks. Conversely, over moisturized wood can sometimes rot quicker, crack, and ruin pads quickly. The preservatives (oil) we use comes to two main categories of choices. Petroleum based, which chemically hates the presence of water (think WD-40) and replaces moisture in the wood with the more emulsive oil, and natural oils, which do tend to have a more tolerant relationship with water since they occur in nature together so they are less likely to repel but coexist. You can oil the bore with natural oil and a few days later see the residue on the outer surface. I cant speak about petroleum based oil because I have never used it, but theoretically it will continue to spread throughout the wood also, but how much moisture will it push out of the wood? Is it significant? Do some wood clarinets have more naturally occurring oil in them than other wood horns? I would bet yes. I think oiling is a case by case issue not an always or never. Theoretically you should want to keep the wood the way it was moisture and oil wise as when it was bored and the tone holes cut. Unfortunately we don't receive this "report" with a new instrument. More or less oil and moisture will play a tiny to rather large difference in original specs to current conditions. Hence, a cracked instrument. Something was not kept constant or changed too rapidly. This opens a whole new argument. Was the crack due to increased or lack of oil/moisture, introducing it too quickly, or too rapid of temp change in the wood? It could most likely be a combination also. It is my opinion that oil acts twofold in protecting the wood and slowing the absorption or dispersement of moisture. When I disassemble a clarinet completely (minus pillars and springs), I use a Q-tip with a drop of oil to clean all the tone holes. You should see some of the lovely scale these sometimes have to offer and I'm not talking about tone hole putty for tuning purposes! One day I will fix my crystal ball so that I will know the precise truth about oiling!
Jamnik
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-24 08:23
Jamnik wrote:
> There is a lot of literature about oiling vs. not oiling and
> organic oil vs. petroleum based. Rather that write pages of
> what others have already done the research to, lets take a look
> at what we are trying to accomplish by oiling. We want to
> protect and preserve the wood. Wood that dries out can shrink
> and distort along with form cracks. Conversely, over
> moisturized wood can sometimes rot quicker, crack, and ruin
> pads quickly. The preservatives (oil) we use comes to two main
> categories of choices. Petroleum based, which chemically hates
> the presence of water (think WD-40) and replaces moisture in
> the wood with the more emulsive oil, and natural oils, which do
> tend to have a more tolerant relationship with water since they
> occur in nature together so they are less likely to repel but
> coexist. You can oil the bore with natural oil and a few days
> later see the residue on the outer surface. I cant speak about
> petroleum based oil because I have never used it, but
> theoretically it will continue to spread throughout the wood
> also, but how much moisture will it push out of the wood? Is
> it significant? Do some wood clarinets have more naturally
> occurring oil in them than other wood horns? I would bet yes.
> I think oiling is a case by case issue not an always or never.
> Theoretically you should want to keep the wood the way it was
> moisture and oil wise as when it was bored and the tone holes
> cut. Unfortunately we don't receive this "report" with a new
> instrument. More or less oil and moisture will play a tiny to
> rather large difference in original specs to current
> conditions. Hence, a cracked instrument. Something was not
> kept constant or changed too rapidly. This opens a whole new
> argument. Was the crack due to increased or lack of
> oil/moisture, introducing it too quickly, or too rapid of temp
> change in the wood? It could most likely be a combination
> also. It is my opinion that oil acts twofold in protecting the
> wood and slowing the absorption or dispersement of moisture.
> When I disassemble a clarinet completely (minus pillars and
> springs), I use a Q-tip with a drop of oil to clean all the
> tone holes. You should see some of the lovely scale these
> sometimes have to offer and I'm not talking about tone hole
> putty for tuning purposes! One day I will fix my crystal ball
> so that I will know the precise truth about oiling!
>
We may still need to agree on what is happening and even terminology.
I can't understand "emulsions" in the context. Emulsification requires an energy and an emulgator (surfactant). The Doctor referred to emulsions above in a slightly different context.
True, natural oils are more compatible with water. The "residues" can be natural wax that is often present - not necessarily a bad thing if spread out uniformly. Then the residues and unsaturated fatty acids make me use synthetic oil as a safer treatment. I can agree that it may be less effective, but it works and definitely helps, as I can witness with the microcracks on the outer surface.
My experience with cocobolo wood, which is more oily compared to grenadilla, suggests an opposite. More oily wood has more pores and then is more prone to oil leaching and then is more in need of oiling.
P.S. For the tone holes, plastic or metal inserts start to make more and more sense to me.
Post Edited (2015-02-24 08:48)
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-24 09:12
^^^Sorry. More emulsive should have read less cohesive.
Jamnik
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Author: ned
Date: 2015-02-24 13:05
Yaseungkim has written ''My son's clarinet is now 17 month old...'' - ''All I do is swab it clean after each use...'' - ''... and I know I take care of it like a baby''
I'm truly astounded!
With some interest I have been following the travails of Mr Yaseungkim and the saga of his son's clarinet. So you do all of this for your little nipper? It's all very admirable...up to a point.
May I ask what does your son do when you are cleaning and adjusting his clarinet and fitting reeds and various mouthpieces? Does he watch? If he watches closely, then I guess it won't be too long before he learns how to do it for himself, one would imagine?
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Author: NB
Date: 2015-02-24 19:12
>May I ask what does
there are spirits to which it is better not to summon.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2015-02-24 19:18
(Disclaimer - I make and sell plant derived wood preservative - Bore Doctor (TM) and Fret Doctor (R) and genuine Grenadilla oil)
When I oil my clarinets I oil the pieces. Each piece of your clarinet probably came from a different tree and can have different rates of loosing oil and moisture than a neighbor. Therefore, when I oil I check each piece to see (if there is oil left after an overnight standing of a light coat of oil) if it has absorbed sufficient oil or not. So, I oil the pieces.
Plant oil emulsifiers (not necessarily surfactants) help keep different oils from separating and also make different plant oils more compatible with the natural oil in the wood. I am not sure what "residues" people are talking about. Plant oil glycerides contain various fatty acids but there are no free fatty acids floating around and no wax that I am aware of if an emulsifier is used.
Plant derived oils interact with water in different ways than petroleum and synthetic oils (none that I know of bind water). The evolution of plant oils found in wood act as a buffering agent for water.
Different shells of water are bound to plant oils by hydrostatic bonds. These shells have different energy levels the closer or farther away from the hydrophilic surface of the plant oil molecule. The outer shells of water are more easily added or removed (from an energy standpoint) than successive inner layers (which require more energy to remove). The layer of hydration spontaneously forms the lowest energy level water shell of a plant oil and water.
The most inner layer - the layer of hydration - requires a lot of energy to remove. Therefore in drying more and more energy is needed to remove the last layers of water and in wet conditions the outer layers are more easily removed by less drying energy.
In this way plant oils buffer and help maintain a stable moisture level in the wood. The plant oils also help maintain the cellular structure of wood whereas petroleum oils do not.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Fret Doctor is a registered name mark for a plant oil mixture used on stringed instrument fret boards.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-24 19:52
Jamnik wrote:
> Theoretically you should want to keep the wood the way it was
> moisture and oil wise as when it was bored and the tone holes
> cut. Unfortunately we don't receive this "report" with a new
> instrument. More or less oil and moisture will play a tiny to
> rather large difference in original specs to current
> conditions. Hence, a cracked instrument. Something was not
> kept constant or changed too rapidly. This opens a whole new
> argument. Was the crack due to increased or lack of
> oil/moisture, introducing it too quickly, or too rapid of temp
> change in the wood? It could most likely be a combination
> also. It is my opinion that oil acts twofold in protecting the
> wood and slowing the absorption or dispersement of moisture.
> When I disassemble a clarinet completely (minus pillars and
> springs), I use a Q-tip with a drop of oil to clean all the
> tone holes. You should see some of the lovely scale these
> sometimes have to offer and I'm not talking about tone hole
> putty for tuning purposes! One day I will fix my crystal ball
> so that I will know the precise truth about oiling!
How I think of the oil action and wood cracks (based on chemistry knowlewdge and experience) is that wood is composed of cellulose fibers that are hydrophilic.
Fibers run predominantly in one direction that makes wood anisotropic. Since cellulose fibers are hydrophilic, wood retains some level of moisture depending on humidity.
So the humidity (and to lesser extent temperature) changes causes changes in fiber hydration and resulting contraction/expansion between the fibers that is the underlying cause of stresses and cracking.
Sudden dry spells, such as coming with cold weather, are especially stressful.
I see oil application working as penetrating microcracks upon drying (and reducing drying as well) and thus minimizing stresses upon drying.
Using more hydrophilic (e.g. natural) oils may be a good idea. Having/adding some wax compounds may be a good idea as well, if uniform application can be assured. The oily resin of cocobolo wood definitely contains some waxy fractions. Wax can seal microcracks on a more permanent basis. Along the lines of more hydrophilic oils - castor oil may work well. Many variables! Also to keep in mind is that many manufacturers treat the wood under the pressure adding different sealants, preservatives, dyes.
Thinking of all this underlying complexity, I just use mineral oil as less interfering. True, it penetrates less. It is then also least likely to leach/extract anything and react with anything. Mineral oil wil just physically fill microcracks. It will be washed away relatively fast but then one can always apply more, as needed
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-24 20:02
The Doctor, most of the plants have epicuticular wax. I could not find composition of cocobolo oil/resin - there are defiitely wax or wax-like solid fractions there. So using formulations with wax seems to be a "natural idea".
Post Edited (2015-02-24 20:03)
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2015-02-24 20:33
interesting comments. Again, try walnut oil on the bell; if, after several days or weeks, you like it, proceed with treating the bore, etc. I liked it and used it for years on wood clarinets (and wood kitchen bowls).
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-24 20:45
richard smith wrote:
> interesting comments. Again, try walnut oil on the bell; if,
> after several days or weeks, you like it, proceed with treating
> the bore, etc. I liked it and used it for years on wood
> clarinets (and wood kitchen bowls).
I think I will give it a try with a barrel. Barrels are most stressed out due to humidity variations and also mechanically. I know some knowledgable people, like Dr. Segal, seal barrel bore with wax.
Just within my limitations, I would have some difficulties in assuring application of a uniform thin film in the bore of the joints.
Any particular brand/formulation of walnut oil that you can recommend?
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2015-02-24 23:24
I bought it at a local grocery store nothing special with regard to brand name.( A little goes a long way).I applied it with my fingers.
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