 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: shadow1
Date: 2014-12-16 01:45
I have an E11 Eb buffet and my barrel is stuck to my top joint. Does anyone know what I can do to separate the pieces? The barrel is on ALL the way.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-12-16 01:51
Rock the pieces gently. Put the horn down if that doesn't work. When you rock, make sure you're twisting too.
If you have a fridge nearby, don't put it in there. Rather, put it directly in front of it, and the cool (not COLD, as it would be inside the fridge) will take some of the moisture out.
Be careful. Good luck.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-16 03:09
Wrap the barrel in a cloth and hold it firmly against a table top or kitchen counter so the top joint is free, then with slight rocking motion, rock it gently to create a slight gap on one side. Then turn it around and rock it in the opposite direction. If you've got some thin pieces of plastic or wood, place them in the gap that's formed.
Keep rocking, turning over and wedging the gaps open with increasingly thicker wedges until the barrel comes off, then take it to a woodwind specialist repairer and have them shave down the tenon rings as that's what's causing the barrel to bind solid on the tenon - they only have to remove a tiny amount of wood from the tenon rings so it fits well and neither binds nor wobbles.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-16 03:14
Let the entire instrument dry out as much as possible in a slightly cool, dry room for a few hours or days, if possible. Whilst inside the slightly cool room, and after the drying period, grab the barrel, wrapping your warm hand around it all the way, letting the barrel warm up and expand for a few minutes. Next, gently rock, twist and pull, praying that it comes off. Be careful! The cork is not what is stuck, it's the wood that is swollen and binding together.
Bring the clarinet into normal room temperature (72 degrees) and let it warm up before playing.
When my Yamaha clarinets got acclimated to Arkansas weather, I had to have the tenons turned down slightly, due to binding.
Hard rubber and plastic instruments don't have this problem, I think ...
If this doesn't work, consult a good repair tech.
Tom
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-12-16 03:49
The same thing happened to me with an E11 Eefer at a music camp this past summer. I'd never played Eefer before, so they gave me a school instrument, and I assembled it and played it for a while. Upon disassembly, the barrel was completely stuck, as you describe. Letting it cool down completely and rocking the barrel back and forth, as tylerleecutts and Chris P suggested, ended up doing the trick.
Post Edited (2014-12-16 06:38)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-12-16 04:08
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Gordon NZ is, IMO, a very reputable clarinet repairman. Here's
> his advice:
>
> http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=391909&t=391900
>
The post you linked to yours is actually my reaction to Gordon's post one entry higher in that particular discussion. If you follow the link, which opens my post, you can then go to the one just before it to see Gordon's full response.
I'm not a tech, but like most clarinetists, I've experienced this problem more than once. My basic approach is, as already suggested, to try to gently rock the barrel side-to-side to try to break the bind between the barrel and the tenon. Once the bind (not the tenon) is broken, the barrel will come off in the normal way. Twisting as you rock will help. One thing I'd add that I forgot to mention last year is that you can sometimes get a better grip on the barrel to twist it by putting a couple of rubber bands, doubled around to fit snugly, around the barrel to improve your grip. I actually have some rubber cloths that are meant to make it easier to get stuck jar lids loose. Rubber bands can be made to work the same way.
I think, as I re-read the posts, that I'm uncomfortable as well with pushing wedges into any opening you create by rocking or twisting. First of all, you may break the wedge. Second, you may damage the bottom of the barrel, especially if it's ringless. Third, once you break the bind, you should be able to move the barrel easily over the rest of the tenon, so wedging to preserve the opening shouldn't be necessary, and trying to pry the barrel up with a wedge creates an opportunity for damage (see 1 and 2 above).
Bent keys are always a danger in freeing a stuck barrel. Either check for these yourself or have a good tech look at the top joint.
Karl
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Author: shadow1
Date: 2014-12-16 05:46
Thank you all. I managed to seperate the pieces. Also, thank you for references to techs because I want to end this problem.
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Author: shadow1
Date: 2014-12-16 05:52
It looks like people on the linked post reference E11s to have this problem a lot.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-16 05:59
I've encountered this on several makes of wooden clarinets - mostly fairly new ones that are still being played in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-16 06:19
kdk:
You made some very important points especially about ringless barrels. Thank you for sharing your insights.
I'm going to contact Dr. Segal and see if he would like to share his wisdom considering this specific type of barrel.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-12-16 07:18
All of the above, plus sometimes just time~ like overnight in low humidity cool area
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-16 08:46
>> First of all, you may break the wedge. Second, you may damage the bottom of the barrel, especially if it's ringless. Third, once you break the bind, you should be able to move the barrel easily over the rest of the tenon, so wedging to preserve the opening shouldn't be necessary, and trying to pry the barrel up with a wedge creates an opportunity for damage (see 1 and 2 above). <<
All risks worth considering but the problem is that it might be necessary to use wedges separate some barrels. It is not true that it "shouldn't be necessary". It depends.
Re (1) It is possible to use a wedge that won't break and/or in a way that won't break it.
Re (2) Yes that is a risk so you do what you can to prevent it, but sometimes a barrel that is stuck won't be possible to remove without a wedge e.g. rocking and twisting won't open more than a crack one side or the other, if at all.
Re (3) That's not necesssarily true. It depends on what length the barrel is stuck. You usually need to open it for almost that length to rock/twist it off, depending on how hard it is stuck. You might not be able to just rock and twist with a lot of force to open it.
Of course doing all of this with minimal risk is better with strong arms and knowing how to hold the parts.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-16 10:16
After reading all of the responses on this thread and the thread I listed above, I have come to the following conclusion...
To prevent any damage to the barrel or clarinet tenon:
1) An extended period of time is necessary. Both Dr. Segal and W. Grabner agree on this point. It takes time for the "swelling" to go down under condition #2,
2) Low humidity environment. Again Dr. Segal and W. Grabner are in agreement.
3) Temperature. Now here is where the above respected experts diverge. Dr. Segal said "in low humidity cool area" and W. Grabner said: "Use dry heat, like putting the clarinet under a warm desk lamp. This will remove the moisture that is causing the swelling."
W. Grabner went on to say: "I usually leave the affected joint under the lamp, overnight, and next morning the sections come apart without extreme effort."
The part that really caught my eye was "without extreme effort". I may be mistaken, but it appears that all of the above responses in this thread used "extreme effort" primarily due to immediate time constraints.
There was talk about possibly bending keys, using rubber bands to increase security of hold on the barrel, etc.
Perhaps, all that is really required is...time. Extended time in a low humidity environment.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-12-16 11:11
Allow me to add to my story: the barrel only came off after I had carried the Eefer, out of its case, on a mile walk at night from the music building to the dorms we were staying in. I then left it in my dorm room for probably half an hour to an hour before returning and taking the barrel off. It seems that the cool, dry night air plus the extended time it was able to sit out in my dorm did the trick.
(I did still have to rock and twist the barrel to get it off, but it didn't take as much effort.)
Post Edited (2014-12-16 11:14)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-16 11:29
>> The part that really caught my eye was "without extreme effort". I may be mistaken, but it appears that all of the above responses in this thread used "extreme effort" primarily due to immediate time constraints. <<
The thing is that "extreme effort" or any other "amount" is relative. I've seen people who, using all their force, couldn't get anywhere close to removing a barrel/bell, while I didn't need to use much force at all.
This can vary a lot depending on how strong someone is and how critical they are in holding the joint.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-16 11:38
So perhaps "extreme effort" could possibly be defined as exertion far beyond what is normally experienced by a particular player.
Thanks clarnibass for pointing that out.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2014-12-16 18:28
One obvious risk of 'extreme effort' is breaking something, which I assume is most likely to be the tenon of the upper joint. Is that a likely occurrence if a person with strong arms twists a stuck barrel while holding the lower joint?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-12-16 20:08
I suspect that the barrel itself may be as much at risk of cracking as the tenon, because of what I've seen on wooden flea market and yard sale clarinets. I've seen far more cracks in barrels than in any other parts of used clarinets -- probably at least twice as many barrel cracks. Typically, the barrel crack is a lengthwise split, all the way down and all the way through to the inside of the bore.
Maybe these barrels cracked because they got dropped. I don't really know -- but I wouldn't hand any clarinet of mine over to the biggest guy in the band and invite him to show off his muscles. I like the advice people have given here, to let the stuck instrument dry and cool, then pull and rock gently. Works for me every time.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2014-12-16 20:09)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-17 09:28
>> So perhaps "extreme effort" could possibly be defined as exertion far beyond what is normally experienced by a particular player. <<
I guess you can define it any way you want
>> One obvious risk of 'extreme effort' is breaking something, which I assume is most likely to be the tenon of the upper joint. Is that a likely occurrence if a person with strong arms twists a stuck barrel while holding the lower joint? <<
Consider what needs to happen for part of the clarinet - either the tenon or the barrel - to break, instead of the barrel coming out.
First, the barrel has to be stuck so hard that it's actually stronger than the tenon and/or barrel themselves when using twisting force. This is extremely unlikely. I am not sure this can happen if the barrel could fit over the tenon in the first place i.e. if it fit and can obviously only swell a certain amount, it's a question whether this amount is so much that it could be stuck harder. My guess and experience say no.
Second, if there is a stronger force holding the barrel to the tenon, you need the person to apply enough twisting force to break the barrel or tenon. I guess this is theoretically possible, but it's hard to say for sure. Maybe a pro armwrestler, weight lifter, etc. can do it, I don't know.
Statistically, I can say I've never seen a tenon or barrel break or crack no matter how much twisting force was used to remove it.
As far as rocking, that's different. I've never applied all my force to rock a barrel. It feels like I could break something applying more rocking force, but I'm not sure. Obviously someone should have a feel for how much rocking force they can apply to not break anything.
Anyway, statistically, I've never seen any barrel or tenon break as a result of removing a stuck barrel, no matter how much force was used.
In Leila's case, it sounds like barrels or tenons were already broken when she bought those old clarinets, not breaking while removing a stuck barrel.
By coincidence, yesterday I saw one the barrels that was most difficult to remove. It was stuck for almost a week which didn't help for the owner to remove it at all, no where close...
The force wasn't instead of time, when that was possible.
Post Edited (2014-12-17 09:47)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-17 13:25
I had trouble reconciling Dr. Segal's and W. Grabner's statements as to what to do to "safely" remove a stuck barrel. Both mentioned lowering the humidity level and yet Dr. Segal mentioned "cool temperature", while W. Grabner mentioned "warm heat".
Even though Grabner's approach works well for him, after a fair amount of research on the Internet, I'm inclined, now, to agree with Dr. Segal's method.
During my research about stuck barrels, I found out that cork material is very susceptible to dimensional changes with temperature. Basically stated, cork expands when heated and contracts when cooled. (This relates to maxopf's experience: "It seems that the cool, dry night air plus the extended time it was able to sit out in my dorm did the trick.")
So, it appears to me, that Dr. Segal's recomendation of reducing the humidity level while lowering the temperature over an extended period of time is the preferred method. (IMO)
Another little tidbit I gleaned from my research reading was: "If it's hard to initially put the barrel on, it will definitely be harder to remove it after playing".
And, another little tidbit concerned a "preventive" approach used by one player who put some cork grease on the tenon wood below the cork.
Any comments on the "preventive" approach?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-12-17 21:35
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Even though Grabner's approach works well for him, after a fair
> amount of research on the Internet, I'm inclined, now, to agree
> with Dr. Segal's method.
>
I'm not sure this is a case where "it works well for Grabner" makes Walter a special case, as though the topic were reeds, mouthpieces or embouchures. If gentle heat works for Walter, and gentle coolness works for Allan, then maybe the truth is that any condition that lowers the surrounding humidity and draws moisture out of the wood will work.
> During my research about stuck barrels, I found out that cork
> material is very susceptible to dimensional changes with
> temperature.
This is the crux of the issue. Most of the time when a barrel binds on a tenon, the cork isn't what's causing the bind. It's the wood of the tenon, either the end or the shoulder where the tenon starts, and the wood barrel.
> And, another little tidbit concerned a "preventive" approach
> used by one player who put some cork grease on the tenon wood
> below the cork.
>
It might prevent a mild bind where the fit is only slightly too tight, but I have my doubts about it's ability to prevent the really stuck barrels we've been talking about. And you risk getting the cork grease into the bore, where it can collect dirt. My experience is that these binds don't just happen all of a sudden one day. It has been hard to get the barrel all the way in for a few days. Once you begin to feel that, it's usually worth having a tech look at it before it really gets stuck. Routinely greasing the tenon end might help, but I suspect it could cause a mess and is a solution to a problem that most of the time doesn't exist.
Karl
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-12-17 22:57
>In Leila's case, it sounds like barrels or tenons were already broken when she bought those old clarinets, not breaking while removing a stuck barrel.
>
Just to clarify -- I've never broken a barrel and I've never bought a clarinet with a broken barrel. I described used clarinets I decided not to buy in part *because* they had barrel cracks -- and that's one of those factors in how much the value of a used clarinet can depreciate, as we're discussing on another thread.
I've had a few stuck barrels over the years, of course. My grammar school band teacher taught my class the method others have described here: let the clarinet take a nap. If it's still stuck, twist and pull while rocking the joint very gently. I follow up by sanding down the cork a bit so it won't stick again.
"Leila" is my imaginary evil twin, btw. She plays the kazoo.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-17 23:23
Grenadilla wood is susceptible to expansion by heat. So, allowing the barrel/tenon joint to "cool" over an extended period of time will allow the dimensional characteristics to be reduced. This coupled with a low humidity environment should allow the "expansive" locking at the tenon/barrel joint to be reduced even more than it would if it were warm. (IMO)
Although an expansive cork is certainly not the main issue when a barrel is "stuck" to the upper joint, IMO, having an expansive cork can certainly "add" to the difficulty in separating the two even if only to a minor degree.
As to Grabner's method, I never meant for him or his method to amount to "a special case". Walter simply uses a method that works well for him.
To me, warmth and coolness are relative terms. If the differential difference of warmth and coolness is low, then this small difference might actually be moot. However, a higher difference would probably make a larger change in the dimensional characteristics of the wood and this, IMO, is really what we are discussing. That is, the tenon and barrel dimensions become incrementally larger due to increases in both humidity and heat. So, again, IMO, reducing both will have the greatest influence on separating a stuck barrel after an extended period of time has gone by.
I found a lot of useful information in the following article:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCoQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwombat123.com.au%2FGrenadilla-Instrument-Preventative-Maintenance.pdf&ei=DceRVMbjOoiEyQSXuIHQAg&usg=AFQjCNGbeZnS1GLUJAfyADt5NffvQp0dSw&bvm=bv.82001339,d.cGU
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-17 23:30
Lelia,
Thanks for your response. It really gave me a hearty laugh which was precisely what I needed!
Yes, let your "stuck" clarinet "take a nap"...a long nap.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-12-18 01:09
There has been considerable discussion here of using temperature change to help separate the stuck barrel from the upper joint. However, as a retired physics teacher, it is not clear to me that everyone here understands how that temperature change would effect this situation.
--Everyone seems to understand that heat will tend to cause a material to expand. However, it does not seem clear to me that everyone understands that the expansion will cause any hole cut in that material (eg. the socket in the barrel) to enlarge as well. Thus, gently warming the barrel from the outside would cause the socket to enlarge and, hopefully, be helpful in removing the barrel. The less perfect heat transfer from the barrel to the tenon (across finished surfaces) should allow for some loosening before the tenon gains enough heat to begin its own expansion.
--By the same token, gentle cooling from the inside should cause the tenon to contract slightly and, by the same logic, do so before the socket begins to contract.
On the other hand, if possible, my preference would be to just let it sit until the wood has a chance to return to the condition it was in when the joint was assembled.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-18 01:20
BartHx,
Thank you for your sharing your educated expertise. I know I learned a lot.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-12-18 07:52
Years ago I made up a tool which is sometimes useful in releasing stuck barrels. I took a length of quarter inch brass rod about a foot long and brazed a steel washer slightly smaller than a clarinet bore to the end with the width at right angles to the long axis of the rod (ie, like a sort of stange mushroom).
Carefully inserting the washer end of the rod into the bore at the opposite end to the barrel, feel for the gap between the barrel tenon and the top joint and let the washer sit in the gap. Now seat the other end of the rod on a firm surface and press the joint-barrel assembly firmly to apply pressure to the end of the barrel. If this isn't enough, try rapping the rod against the firm surface to jar the barrel loose. Once there is a gap, drip some bore oil into it to ease things along.
I've used this succesfully on a number of occasions and have never damaged a barrel or a joint. Of course, if there isn't a gap between the joint and the barrel this method won't work.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-18 09:23
>> And, another little tidbit concerned a "preventive" approach used by one player who put some cork grease on the tenon wood below the cork. <<
If you put cork grease on the cork, some will get to the inner wood end of the tenon too, even if you don't put any there. The barrel would "scoop" some and it will move down. Even you put very little cork grease (and more than very little shouln't be necessary anyway).
In maybe 99% of cases (or close to it) the barrel is stuck on bottom inner end of the tenon, not the outer end. So you'd already have some cork grease there even if you didn't actually put any on purpose.
>> And you risk getting the cork grease into the bore, where it can collect dirt <<
I guess if you put a lot of cork grease on the outer wood end of the tenon it might somehow get through when you remove a barrel (not a stuck barrel), but otherwise cork grease get on the wood part of the tenon anyway, at least some (not a lot). Or maybe if you put it on the barrel itself. I wouldn't recommend doing either of those things on purpose, but a bit of cork grease on the wood parts of the tenon really won't cause any problems.
>> If gentle heat works for Walter, and gentle coolness works for Allan, then maybe the truth is that any condition that lowers the surrounding humidity and draws moisture out of the wood will work. <<
I think you're right. Depending on area, at least here it's drier in the winter when it's colder. This cool temp combined with drier air might mean the wood dries more and/or faster. I imagine putting a warm lamp will dry the wood faster than it otherwise would. So I can see why both seem to help.
I guess a question is what would create more of a difference between the tenon and barrel. When a metal ring is hotter, both inside and outside diameters get larger. Is it the same for wood? Is it consistent. I'm not sure. Then a question is which of those would increase the difference.
I think the recommendation (that I don't especially like) to put the clarinet in the fridge causes some parts to move slightly, helping to "break" the bond. I definitely hear more wood furnitures making wood noises in the winter... but it's also drier then. OTOH if the inside diameter of increases when warm, it's possible the barrel will expand more than the tenon, so warming from the outside can help. I'm not sure if this is consistent.
What is sure is that I see more stuck joints in the winter, including some that were fine just the summer before. So I'm leaning towards somewhatt warm and dry being optimal, but it's just a guess really. I'm going to look more into it.
>> My experience is that these binds don't just happen all of a sudden one day. <<
That's definitely true. Just last week I had an unusual case. A player brought her clarinet for a few different repairs, including reducing the wood at the tenon because it was difficult to put and remove the barrel. Actually that day she couldn't remove it. She left the clarinet here and the next day when I came to work on it, the barrel came off easily. Actualyl you couldn't even feel that slight friction that you can almost always feel when the wood is too thick. It felt completely normal. I guess sometimes the wood can swell enough to change from a completely good fit.
>> I follow up by sanding down the cork a bit so it won't stick again. <<
Sorry about mispelling your name, it was just a typo.
Re the cork, in 99% of cases the cork has nothing to do with the barrel (or any part) getting stuck.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2014-12-18 20:48
Here's a question to consider: "How difficult is it for you to initially put your barrel on?"
If, in your opinion, it's rather difficult, then the chances of it getting "stuck", IMO, will increase in direct proportion to the difficulty of getting the barrel on.
Let's analyze this for a moment. After assembly, a player is blowing rather hot air (around 100 degrees) along with nearly 100% humidity down the barrel and upper tenon joint. The obvious will occur, i.e., both will expand. No doubt about it.
When a person stops playing for the day, the temperature immediately drops from around 100 degrees to whatever the ambient temperature is. Also, the humidity level will drop immediately from nearly 100% to whatever the ambient humidity is.
Immediate dis-assembly may indeed result in a "stuck" barrel. From my point of view, the barrel and tenon didn't immediately expand. It took a period of time.
Doesn't it make sense that a "period" of time may be necessary to separate the barrel from the upper section if the initial assembly was "difficult" at the start? (I realize "difficult" is a relative and subjective experience.)
I suggest we simply recall maxopf's and clarnibass's "stuck barrel" experiences listed above as well as BartHx's and Dr. Segal's advice.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-20 16:02
>> Everyone seems to understand that heat will tend to cause a material to expand. However, it does not seem clear to me that everyone understands that the expansion will cause any hole cut in that material (eg. the socket in the barrel) to enlarge as well. <<
That's how it works with metal. However, I was trying to get definite info about this for wood and got contradicting answers. These contradicting answers came from other very reputable clarinet and barrel makers, repairers and wood workers. So I'm still looking into it. I guess it's not really suprising that some supposedly very reputable people are wrong, because this happens often enough...
So far it does seem to work like metal but I really want to find out for sure. Maybe it could depend on the type of wood? I don't know.
I have put old barrels I didn't need anymore in water and a toaster oven before, to experiment, but don't remrember what I measured before and after. I might try that again.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-12-20 21:50
Thought experiment:
Start with a solid piece of wood and mark the center point. Imagine what would happen if you were to heat that piece of wood. If we can agree that the outside dimensions would increase because it would expand, than we would have to agree that all points throughout that piece of wood would have to be moving outward from the center point to accomplish that (otherwise, the wood would be tearing itself apart). While warm, cut a hole that would remove the center point. Now, cool the wood and we would expect all points to reverse direction and move back toward the center point making the hole smaller. Warm it up again and the points again move away from the center point making the hole larger. Cool it off again and the points again move toward the center point making the hole smaller. If the hole were to get smaller on heating, it would require that the wood fibers around the margin of the hole be squeezed into a smaller space while the rest of the wood would be expanding. The alternate crushing and relaxing of the fibers around the margin of the hole would soon have them crumbling into dust. While the coefficient of thermal expansion for wood is small, it still has to follow the basic rules of physics. An altered frame of reference can cause an apparent change in the laws of physics (eg. Einstein's work with relativity). However, so long as we are all living under "normal" conditions on the surface of the Earth, Newtonian physics holds true.
In addition, consider that all wind instruments (wood or metal) change pitch in the same direction in response to temperature changes.
Post Edited (2014-12-20 21:56)
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