 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-08 06:41
Has anyone come across hardware, (e.g. a change in register tubes), or a repair change that has yielded them a better sounding throat Bb when simply playing the note as if it were a throat "A," along with the octave key?
I realize there were recent posts on just such register tubes, but the problem being addressed there was intonation.
I understand that the throat Bb note has its sound shortcomings in part because the position of the octave key, like many things about clarinet design, presented tradeoffs between keeping other notes in tune and the throat Bb acceptable in sound, if not the clarinet's prettiest note. (If someone wants to correct/clarrify that please feel free.)
It seems to me, if the above is correct--and it may not be--then clarinet designers could open different holes when the octave key is depressed, depending upon whether the throat "A" key were depressed as well--much like how some Backun clarinets handle low "F" correction (differentiating it from its similarly fingered, twelveth up..."C5," based on whether the octave key is depressed.)
If I haven't made this clear, invision the octave key opening one hole for a note such as E5, or B5, but yet another hole when sounding the throat Bb.
Of course such a design might present problems hitting some notes in the stratosphere, with weird fingerings that require both the octave key and the throat "A" being depressed (fingerings that I'm unaware of.)
I do realize the presence of harmonic fingerings, and I'm a fan of sounding throat Bb, where possible, using the second from top side trill key on the upper joint, along with the fingering for a thoat "A."
Ideally, I'm just interested in making the standard fingering of the throat Bb sound better, because the better this base note sounds, the better the additional harmonic fingering will sound as well, I think.
This thread was inspired by a recent experience with a friend's clarinet, where her throat Bb, with standard fingering, sounded worlds better than that I could achieve on my own clarinet with the same standard fingering, using my mouthpiece/reed/ligature.
Could the type of pads, or their distance from the clarinet when open make changes--bearing in mind of course that there's only so much one can make adjustments to these keys opening heights given the levers they are on, and their position under the throat "A" key.
Many thanks.
Post Edited (2014-11-08 06:45)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-08 07:14
Several mechanisms have been made that either completely separate the speaker vent and throat Bb vent or have the speaker vent and throat Bb vent working together for a clearer throat Bb - Leblanc and Selmer have fitted them to their clarinets in the past (sometime around the '50s and '60s) but they never became standard equipment.
Reform Boehm clarinets such as those made by Wurlitzer are where you'd find them fitted as standard, as well as on basset horns and alto clarinets. Pro level bass, contra-alto and contrabass clarinets (and Yamaha alto clarinets) have an automatic speaker mechanism where the throat Bb vent is used for the lower part of the upper register (from B-Eb) and a smaller diameter speaker tube at the top end of the instrument or on the crook is used for the middle through to higher part of the upper register (from E upwards).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-11-08 10:58
I don't want to sound mean, but can we please make it clear- there is no "OCTAVE KEY" on the clarinet. Ok, so i can work out which key you mean, but every time you call it that (and lots of people on this bb do so) you're making a fool of yourself. Please don't be offended, I'm telling you this for your own sake.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-11-08 16:38
Make sure the register tube is clean. Install a cork pad (if not already present). Bevel the outside of the pad toward where it hits the tube.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2014-11-08 16:39)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-08 18:00
Personally I'm not offended by the term octave key (I think I use it interchangeably like "pop" and "soda"). We all know what you're talking about.
There have been clarinet designs with more complicated octave arrangements. I believe Rossi offers an option of this on his clarinet. The article on Fox's website talks extensively about the NX clarinet that had such and octave mechanism.
But I would hasten to say that all such approaches add complicated mechanisms that are "weighty," adding more potential sluggishness to your technique.
Almost every time I hit an extended throat "Bb" I make it a point to make it better than the last time I lingered on throat "Bb." Most of the time I use the vent that is adding 2 and 3 of each hand. Some times I go with the more standard 3 and 3 adding the right hand "Eb/Ab" key.
And of course the last thing to stress is that it is ONE NOTE and only one note. Ensuring that you do not over open (or obsess over) the octave key ensures a more even scale throughout your horn......... a much MUCH bigger deal by far.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-08 18:22
I am going to work under the assumption, until corrected otherwise, that what I referred to above as the octave key is better referred to as the register key on the clarinet, as...well..the key's depress affects notes on the 12th, not the 8th (octave.)
Mea culpa.
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2014-11-09 01:41
Here's a nice article with some historical b-flat mechanisms.
http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/News/Newsletter/August2010/ClarinetSoreThroat.html.
Patricola uses a Stubbins-type mechanism on their clarinets, but many people still don't seem to like the b-flat on them. On mine, it works well mechanically, but is still very stuffy without the resonance fingerings. It sounds great with them. So if you still need the resonance fingering, the extra mechanism doesn't seem like much of a gain. However, maybe it let them put the hole in a better place for use as a register key, and gave improvements to the twelfths, etc that I'm not taking into account.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-11-10 03:07
Hi, I'm sorry about that but I stand my ground. I'm sorry Paul but it's nothing at all like pop and soda. The register key does not change the octave of the note. Full stop. To call it that it like calling someones bicycle a tricycle- one has two wheels and the other three and there isn't really any reason for confusion. I don't often make a fuss...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-10 03:46
No worries. This isn't like my argument about the importance of "air."
I just see it like this. To get any range on a woodwind instrument you have to take advantage of upper partials. All the other woodwinds are "easy," overblowing the octave first (as one would expect). Consequently the key that facilitates the first order of overblown notes is the "octave" key. So the clarinet as a stopped cylinder has the unfortunate acoustic property of producing a sound that would be equal to a flute about a foot longer.
I personally don't hold that against the clarinet. I'm also not too detail minded either (gets me in trouble with a lot of folks) and prefer to speak in generalities (or worse) in a way that can be categorized by the following phrase: "Listen to what I'm saying, not the words!" Got that from my step father and NEVER forgot it.
Just curious, are you a math teacher or engineer by trade?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-10 04:14
When I was younger I got really unhappy about people saying "microwave", when then meant "microwave oven", which is an entirely different thing. And I think it's just as bad as "octave key" on a clarinet, for anyone with an understanding of physics.
But I gave up on microwaves, and started saying it wrong myself.
So if you sweat over "octave" but talk about putting dinner in the "microwave", well... justsayin'
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-11-10 11:31
heh, have not lived in a house with a Microwave oven since 1993 so you can't catch me on that one! If it's any consolation- I still to this day say "Nucula" instead of "Nuclear".
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-11-11 02:00
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> No worries. This isn't like my argument about the importance of "air.">>
You don't HAVE an 'argument' about the importance of air.
Obviously air is involved. What you do is just assert that importance, but then mischaracterise it, and continue to confuse the issue for others.
>> I just see it like this. To get any range on a woodwind instrument you have to take advantage of upper partials. All the other woodwinds are "easy," overblowing the octave first (as one would expect). >>
What one expects is of course highly dependent on one's knowledge. Thousands of people have contributed to 'our' greater understanding of the world over the centuries, to the extent that current models of the world approximate reality to a high degree. That understanding is what we call physics, and its internal consistency is guaranteed by the mathematical language in which much of it is expressed. (Mathematics is what embodies the consistency.)
Your ignorance of the relevant part of that effort is why you 'expect' that the clarinet would overblow at the octave.
Others, and many people here, know that the world is more complicated than that.
>> Consequently the key that facilitates the first order of overblown notes is the "octave" key.>>
It's you, and only you – apart from perhaps some other ignoramuses – that call it an octave key.
People call it either the 'register key' or the 'twelfth key'.
>> So the clarinet as a stopped cylinder has the unfortunate acoustic property of producing a sound that would be equal to a flute about a foot longer. I personally don't hold that against the clarinet.>>
Well, bully for you.
>> I'm also not too detail minded either (gets me in trouble with a lot of folks) and prefer to speak in generalities (or worse) in a way that can be categorized by the following phrase: "Listen to what I'm saying, not the words!" Got that from my step father and NEVER forgot it.>>
Well, FORGET IT.
FACE IT, YOU ARE JUST A NUISANCE HERE.
Tony
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-11-11 02:15
I personally call it the register key, but I could see it being called the octave key in the sense that it allows you to play within the next octave (not necessarily that it will take you exactly 8va.) You can't play the entire 2nd octave of the instrument's range without the key (well, you could, but overblowing isn't easy.)
It still bothers me mildly when people call it the octave key though. :P
Post Edited (2014-11-11 02:16)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-11 06:47
If it's not too much of a nuisance, can anyone tell me how the notes in a certain partial came to be called a "register" in the first place?
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-11-11 07:28
I think it originated as a technical term in organ playing.
Edit: Here's the dictionary definition. Makes sense now.
a : a set of organ pipes of like quality : stop
b (1) : the range of a human voice or a musical instrument
b (2) : a portion of such a range similarly produced or of the same quality
Post Edited (2014-11-11 07:32)
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2014-11-13 20:04
I have called the key "register key" whole my life, because we say various notes to be in the low, middle, upper, high, clarinet, altissimo etc. register.
I think all mechanical solutions to throat bb have failed because they tend to cause trouble elsewhere. But it's quite possible to have a good sounding bflat. The key factors are
-adjusting the air pressure
-using the resonance fingerings
-using the side key cleverly
-keeping the bflat tube clean. I remember Tony Pay advicing to remove the key and scratch the $#&** out of the tube with the register key's spring!
I don't know if I should boast about this, but as a young boy i attended a master class by Alfred Prinz. When I played Brahms' sonata for him, he blamed me that my bflats are too loud!
Yarmoh
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-14 11:08
Yarmoh,
Somehow I missed that advice on scratching the inside of the register tube. Have you done that? What does that do?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-11-16 16:57
What's that old idiom about the register tube calling the octave key black?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2014-11-16 18:43
I play on Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets with double venting of the throat Bb. However, there have still been some hissing/buzzing on B and Bb (within the staff), and especially on the A-clarinet. Another specimen of the same mouthpiece I was using made them clearer, but especially with harder reeds some hissing were still there.
As an experiment just the other day, encouraged by a Ridenour You-tube video, I simply removed the register key (also called octave key ;-)). Both B and Bb became crystal clear on both instruments! Thus I simply bended the register key to open a little bit more (the gap on the Bb-clarinet between the pad and the hole is now about 3 mm and about 3,7 mm on the A-clarinet).
The Ridenour video tells that a register key opening too much could cause grunting (underblowing) in the high register, especially when playing piano/pianissimo. Another problem could be a sharpening of the upper clarion (g-c above the staff). However, I can't notice any such problems on my instruments, at least not so far.
There may of course be some valid reason why Wurlitzer themselves doesn't make that opening as large as I have done now, but so far I'm very, very happy with it.
I can't of course tell how well this solution may work on other clarinets, and especially on single venting systems, but a simple way to try would be as I did by taking off the register key and see what happens. Does it clear the B/Bb, does it cause grunting or does it sharpen the upper clarion? And what happens if the register key is allowed to open just a little bit more than it does currently?
Still another method not yet mentioned on this thread is by installing a "spike" (like the tip of a needle spring) in the middle of the pad on the register key. The sharp edge of that spike should be pointed towards the tone hole. However, I haven't tried this by myself.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-16 19:14
Increasing the opening of the register key when said key is pressed is an interesting premise Mr. Isotalo.
Such thoughts had crossed my mind as I recall that effecting this very process on my clarinet's C#/G# key helped that also notoriously stuff note to voice itself better as a result.
Perhaps the increase in opening you refer to, assuming the issues you raise with the high register not being present for me, is one that's so small , that it's best measured in millimeters.
But beyond such a small increase in aperture, I can't see myself physically capable of accomplishing such a task, given the limited distance of the register key's thumb contact point, to the clarinet.
I'm envisioning that one might have to bend the portion of the register key where the thumb contacts it, somewhat away from the clarinet, so that when this key is actuated, the register pad further distances itself from the register opening than prior to such an adjustment, given the "see-saw" type operation of this key around its placement pin/rod.
I had such room for play in the key's position when it came to the aforementioned C#/G# key's adjustment.
Like you said, best this be tried first by removing, not repositioning the register key to assess impact on the higher register first.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2014-11-17 00:56
This was the Ridenour video I referred to, titled "Getting out the grunts", in two parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaF2lDfGHJE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tgvlqgGJDA
These videos are actually primarily about narrowing the gap between the tone hole and the pad of an open register key, and thus "getting out the grunts". But when applied the other way round by widening that gap you can instead 'get out the hissing'. The latter part of the second video issues this hissing/buzzing problem.
By the way, the original gap between the register key pad and the tone hole was about 1,5 mm on my instruments. Then I just took a grip around the key at the tone hole and bended it outwards. Depending on the alloy in that key there could of course be a risk of cracking it if bending too much.
Concerning avoiding possible grunting, which I haven't noticed in my case, there is also the possibility not to press the register key all the way to the bottom while playing, and thus reducing that gap to a preferred level - perhaps when playing pianissimo in the clarion register, or perhaps playing leaps from "long tube to short tube", as it's called in that video. In other instances you can press the key to the bottom and enjoy crystal clear (or at least close to ...) B and Bb-tones.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-17 03:27
Be careful if you decide to bend the speaker key yourself as they can break at the point where the flat spring screw is drilled into the key arm, they can break at the solder joint where the key is fitted to the key barrel if it's a dry joint (where the solder hasn't flowed through the entire joint and is only holding on the outside edges). If you bend it from the touchpiece end you will compress the pad too much or it could bend the key barrel and rod screw thus making the key difficult to remove.
What Yamaha suggest you do to increase the venting is to hold the key open and tap the key with a rawhide mallet between your thumb (holding the tip of the touchpiece down) and the key barrel to put a slight bend on the touchpiece end. But do this in several small taps of the mallet instead of one massive whack to lessen the risk of bending the rod screw or key barrel or stressing the pillars and the wood they're screwed into.
This is only applicable if the key cork is thin (less than 0.5mm) so it can't be thinned down without the risk of sanding or cutting through to the metal. If the key cork is thicker than 0.5mmm, then either trim or sand it thinner or replace it with a much thinner cork. Aesthetically speaking it's much nicer to have an even thickness key cork instead of a thick one that's been trimmed or sanded down at the tip so making it uneven in its thickness (resembling a wedge of cheese).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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