 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2014-10-18 02:35
I'm sure it's been discussed numerous times, but I did a search and didn't find exactly what I was looking for...mainly how to make a smooth transition going over the clarion/altissimo "break", say from the highest clarion B to the next C# (first altissimo note).
Although not as bad as the case cited above, even going from C6 to C#6 is not very smooth, as in all cases, there is an ugly undertone, as well as a hesitation in making the "break". This is especially true when attempting to play at pianissimo.
Oh, and I've tried the half-hole approach, and it didn't work for me, or I'm not doing it correctly.
CarlT
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2014-10-18 02:52
For me the trick was really breath support. If a very focussed stream of air is being sent through your clarinet as you make that break, the register should change very smoothly. The jump from chalumeau to clarion is difficult because that air needs to be oriented differently (your pinched Bb is voiced very differently than a long B) but to altissimo it should be more evident. Do not change embouchure, don't bite or change your airstream as you make the change, all that should happen is a change in fingering and your break should pass smoothly.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-18 03:54
I actually slightly disagree with the advice "not to change your airstream." You in fact DO use a bit more air to move to the next octave (same as the lower break). Of course "more" is relative to your dynamic.
.........Paul Aviles
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2014-10-18 22:46
I have had this problem with one particular clarinet of mine and with only that particular note (C# above the staff).
If it's only that note whose resistance is significantly different than the notes around it, "changing the airstream" will work just fine if you have time to do it, but if you're moving fast and you're at piano or pianissimo, trying to nudge that one note will be a real problem, if it's not impossible.
What has alleviated the problem for me is to build up the BOTTOM of the L1 tone hole (that is, toward the bell). If you don't go overboard, this should not affect tuning or appreciably affect how the timbre, tuning, or response of other notes with that hole open, but it will, in effect, act like half-holing the note, and might even make other altissimo notes speak easier also.
There may be other things that an expert can do to the bore and tone holes to fix the problem, but this is the first thing to try, it's easy to do, and is reversible if you use tape or wax in the tone hole.
B.
Post Edited (2014-10-18 22:49)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-10-18 23:12
Listen to Rock 2, second movement, played by Silfies, and other pros. Not easy!! , but I could do it on my TR147, but don't know why.
richard smith
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-10-19 02:03
That altissimo C# tends to be a relatively weak and intractable note on many clarinets I have tested during repair work, varying even between samples of the same brand/model.
With those clarinets you certainly have to coax note and increase breath support to get it to match surrounding tones.
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Author: tims
Date: 2014-10-19 10:02
Three suggestions
First, do not lift the first finger of the left hand directly off the hole as you go from B to C#, instead, roll the finger off the hole keeping the finger in contact with the horn. Experiment with how much you need to roll the finger off. This may take some practice to learn to roll off the hole while your are lowering the fingers onto the other keys. When moving from C to C#, half hole the first finger hole. Experiment on how much the hole should be open. You may only need to cover a tiny amount.
Second, practice going the other direction. Start with a long tone on the C# and hold it until you are comfortable with the tone color and pitch then carefully move to the C or B being sure you are moving your fingers smoothly off the keys. Try as much as possible to not change your embouchure or air pressure as you move to the C or B. This should be easier than going up, because the C# will offer more resistance than the B or C. Be very conscious of your embouchure and air pressure on the C#. Now reverse the sequence. Start with a long tone on B or C and play until you feel you are using exactly the same embouchure and air pressure as you were using on the C#. Stay of the B or C until you are comfortable you are playing it the same as the C#. If you are not sure, stop, play a long tone C#, stop then try again on the B or C until you think it feels the same, then slur to the C#. Repeat this until the transition is smooth.
Third, learn to move your fingers on and off keys together. Too often people will tend to roll their wrists when raising or lowering their fingers. If you notice that when you lift your fingers that your hand is not parallel with the horn and the little finger is higher than the next and the next is higher than the next and so on, then you are rolling your wrist rather than lifting your fingers. This means that the fingers begin to come off the horn one after the other beginning with the little finger (or the lowest finger down) rather than all at once. Likewise when you lower your fingers, if you rotate your wrist, then the keys will close in the opposite sequence. Even if you don't feel your fingers moving on or off the keys one at a time, if you are rotating your wrists, then they probably are. This is one of the major causes of problems in making smooth transitions between notes, especially between registers or long jumps.
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2014-10-19 22:06
Many thanks, all. You've given me several things to try, and as always, I appreciate this forum.
CarlT
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-10-20 22:24
There seems to be a change of pressure inside the clarinet when going between clarion and altissimo, as it is between clarion and chalumeau.
I find it difficult to play cross-register transitions fast without using the tongue, especially downward transitions.
With altissimo, I have started experimenting with the trill and throat keys. They only shorten the air column and don't take out overtones. That makes the sound smoother.
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-10-21 06:36
On a semi unrelated note, how would someone do a tremolo from a clarion b to a altissimo c#? I may be reading the music wrong (its a hand written score),but its always good to know
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-10-21 06:43
locke9342 wrote:
> On a semi unrelated note, how would someone do a tremolo from a
> clarion b to a altissimo c#? I may be reading the music wrong
> (its a hand written score),but its always good to know
Play the B as: TR xox / xxx
Play the C# as: TR xox / xxo
...GBK
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Author: tims
Date: 2014-10-21 07:35
> On a semi unrelated note, how would someone do a tremolo from a
> clarion b to a altissimo c#? I may be reading the music wrong
> (its a hand written score),but its always good to know
Finger the B as you normally would and trill with the thumb. The C# will be a little flat, but the tone quality of the B is much better than GBK's suggestion. If you can learn to trill with the thumb and still keep the register key open (I know people that can do this), then the C# is well in tune.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-10-21 07:57
You can also use the standard fingering for B and trill with the side two trill keys (the ones you'd usually use as an alternate throat F#).
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Author: tims
Date: 2014-10-21 08:12
->Johan H Nilsson
There are good reasons to learn the alternate fingerings that let you stay in the same harmonic, but you must learn to be able to slur smoothly between registers at all volumes using the standard fingerings. The problems you appear to be having need to be corrected, but generally not by using alternate fingerings. It is very likely a combination improperly set embouchure and not moving your fingers smoothly, precisely and together that is causing this problem.
If you are experiencing the problem mainly in downward transitions, then your embouchure is probably too tight. You probably got into the habit of tightening your embouchure as you went higher because when you first started playing these notes this was probably the only way you could get these notes to come out and now you do it without thinking. Now that you have been playing longer, you should be able to have better breath and lip control so you can play across all registers with very little change in lip and air pressure.
If you find you are going to harder and harder reeds to improve your tone, then you are actually trying to correct for a too tight embouchure with a harder reed. The pressure used against the reed by good players is not significantly different whether they use hard reeds or use soft reeds. The people who use harder reeds tend to play on mouthpieces with smaller tip openings and sometimes longer lays, while those who play on softer reeds play on more open tip mouthpieces with medium or short lays.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-10-21 08:49
tims wrote:
> finger the B as you normally would and trill with the thumb. The C# will be a little > flat, but the tone quality of the B is much better than GBK's suggestion.
Although it's the most common alternative, the C# is flat and that's the major fallacy with that fingering. Thus, my lesser known suggestion which has better intonation and can also let you trill faster. Of course using the fingering depends on the notes before and after the trill.
maxopf wrote:
> You can also use the standard fingering for B and trill with the side two
> trill keys (the ones you'd usually use as an alternate throat F#).
The pitch on the C# is very flat.
BTW - There is also the lesser known (and more difficult) choice of playing the B and opening the throat G#/Ab key.
...GBK
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-10-21 12:38
tims,
Thanks for your advice and thoughts.
I can play fairly slow passages smoothly up and down over the altissimo break.
The problem arises when you have to cross the break fast and repeatedly.
For instance, I think you agree that no one can trill a written C6 over the break using regular fingering.
Also try and play G5-B5-D6-B5 16ths as fast as you can using (1) regular fingering and (2) alternate fingering with no covered holes on D6.
I think we both agree that even the top pro will achieve a smoother result with (2).
Post Edited (2014-10-21 17:09)
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2014-10-23 10:16
I think that tims' advice is sound
>>First, do not lift the first finger of the left hand directly off the hole as you go from B to C#, instead, roll the finger off the hole keeping the finger in contact with the horn.
My teacher has recently shown me how to lift my left index finger using minimal movement and this has had a major, positive impact on my playing, making everything much smoother, including over the 2nd break. It sounds like the technique outlined by tims
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The older I get, the better I was
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