 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-06 07:09
Is there anybody out there in clarinet land that routinely and dependably incorporates B4 and C4 into their own Bb clarinet solos? (By B4 I mean the 4th B, B1 is in lower chalumeau, B2 is lowest clarion long pipe, B3 is near top of clarion, B4 is beyond the top of the usual altissimo. C4 is an octave above the thumb+register key top clarion C3. Sorry if this is non-standard nomenclature, but Ridenour calls this C4 in his fingering book.)
Or perhaps you've tried to do this and given up. Either way, I'd like to have a discussion here about the various technical aspects. For now, let me just say I'm able to play them regularly and easily, but not dependably. That's because my reeds won't stay ready to play them more than a couple of minutes of play, then I have to restore by sanding or trimming and I'm good for a couple of songs, or 1 song, or half a song. I never have trouble with the notes up through the Bb just below B4/C4.
Am I trying to do the impossible?
Thanks!
Stan
PS- please listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g03y2AgnpK0, where I hit C4's at 0:56, 1:15, 2:27, and 2:46.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-11-20 04:23)
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-02-06 02:24
For us ''non-legit'' players, where on the piano are these notes?
ta
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2014-02-06 07:35
Wow, you make those notes sound so easy! I can hit them somewhat easily on bass clarinet and sometimes on clarinet (but not even close on eefer - I can't play above an altissimo E consistently, but I'll get plenty of opportunities as I'm currently playing Carmina Burana with an orchestra later in the spring).
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-06 02:45
Ned- What I call C1 is the Bb just left of middle C on the piano. Count upward 3 octaves. Play along with my Moonglow and I hit that Bb (C) at 0:56.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: gkern
Date: 2014-02-06 10:19
Very nice Stan, Moonglow is one of my faves; the barrel looks like a Ridenour Ivorlon - is that a Lyrique clarinet you are playing?
Wow - double high C and with a nice tone - when I hit a double high G# or A above the staff, my dog gives me a dirty look and runs upstairs! Can't seem to get to Bb up there and the dog is glad...
Gary K
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2014-02-06 10:51
The very first thing I do when I warm up for the day is play long tones from the very bottom (low E) to an Eb7 (Eb4 by your terms) above the 1 and 1 high C. This push to the extreme allows me to refine the lower altissimo notes and helps me control them better. A lot of modern repertoire is starting to exploit these extreme registers on the clarinet. Now, you do have to have a good reed, though it is attainable with a soft reed as long as you're not clamping down and voicing properly. But, sometimes the reed just won't allow you to go that high. It's about a good, firm embouchure, NOT "BITING", and good voicing with the back of the tongue. The higher you go up there the farther back your tongue needs to go.
Aside - I also play Eb clarinet regularly, and this really helps with my Bb/A altissimo playing as well.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-06 13:51
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the kind comments. Yes, that's an Ivorlon barrel (not a big deal IMHO, just one of several I use). And that's a Ridenour Arioso ASB-101 I bought new from him about a yr ago- identical acoustically and mechanically to the Lyrique but lower priced if you can find one. It replaced a Leblanc Dynamic 2, which replaced an older Yamaha pro horn, which replaced...... I'm happy with the Arioso.
My family and neighbors (in a condo!) had to endure some gosh awful noises from me for a long time as I gradually extended my range upward one note at a time. It's still pretty shrill at times, but at least is under more control, LOL. It has been a long journey. I'm old enough that I long ago quit worrying about looking or sounding foolish. :-)
Stan
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-06 19:08
Just to restate my central question- is ANYONE regularly (in public performance or other demanding "play it now" settings) playing these high notes? If so- do you have a protocol that allows you to KNOW they will play when you need them? ...whether 5 min or 30 min after you got set up? ...and whether you're playing for 5 min or 30 min?
I can always set up to make them play. But I can't depend on them lasting.
Or did any of you ever give up on this?
A related question would be whether you know of any players whose public performances regularly contain these notes? I confess I haven't gone looking for them. The Pete Fountain recordings I've studied stop at the high Bb. Makes me wonder if that was a deliberate choice he made for reliability reasons. And I read about Benny Goodman's famous high C in Carnegie Hall, but I take it that that was unusual even for him. Somewhere on this board I think I read he asked an arranger NOT to include that note since it was not dependable (anybody else seen that? where was it?).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: gkern
Date: 2014-02-06 19:59
Kenny Davern hit the ultra high altissimo notes often, and with ease. On this YouTube video, he finishes with a double high D (I have been told). His high notes always sounded good to me, and played on a plastic clarinet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXg_px3gqqk
Gary K
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-06 20:44
Hi Gary,
That's a nice recording! I'll have to listen to more of Kenny D's performances. There are so many fine players out there, and in today's world there's so much easy access- no hope of finding and enjoying them all. Thanks for sharing this.
Kenny hits one D4 (a whole step above my C4) at the very end of the song, sustained and at a high volume level (by choice or not?). Very impressive. Earlier in the song he was mostly topping out at a comfortable high F/F#- though at about 2:40 I heard one momentary B4. This is a live performance setting- so much tougher to control than a home recording where you can do as many takes as you want and only show a winner to the world, LOL. So obviously he's confident the notes will be there when he wants. Also a seasoned performer will be well prepared for the times something extreme does not work- I imagine he would slide easily down to some other note and act like that's what he meant to play, LOL.
There is also the possibility that D4 is (for everybody or only for some?) more reliable than C4. I haven't ever tried it. I need that C- it fits in so many chords, whether I'm in the key of C, F, G, or even D, A, or Bb.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-06 21:33
Thanks Eric.
I actually have a long history on Legeres (maybe $500 worth over about 3 years) and only recently switched back to cane, and started using Ridenour's ATG reed finishing system. ATG would also work on Legeres but my old stock of those had all been messed with so much (sanding pre-ATG, trimming, boiling water, dry ice!!) trying to keep them playing well for me- that after trying ATG on a few I just pitched all 20+ and decided not to pay for more for now.
In my best Legere days, I could start with a new reed and it would (usually) be wonderful for a day or 2. (I play 45-60 minutes, 5 to 7 days per week- that's been my regimen since summer 2010 when I picked up clarinet after not touching for 38 years.) Then the Legere would drift on me and I'd need another new one (not just lost high notes but poor response in upper clarion or throughout). Or I'd try an older one that had rested a while and maybe it would play for a bit. The Legere company at one point replaced a batch of them for me, so I've had at least 30. I tried all manner of reasonable and crazy things that sometimes seemed to restore old dead ones (which for a time would be wonderful!), but it would never last. Perhaps ATG balancing would be better?
My current ATG regimen uses Vandoren traditional blue box reeds. Many of them out of the box are ready to play for me (wish I'd found this brand sooner), and the others I can now fix with little trouble. Any of these reeds will, once adjusted, play full range for me for a little while, then I start to lose the highest B4/C4. Bb is fine. I can fix, but only briefly. In many respects this is the same situation I was in with the Legeres- nothing seems "permanent". For public performance this is no good.
I keep hoping for that one change in the way I'm doing things that will make this issue go away for good. I have gone through instruments, mouthpieces, ligatures, and reeds, ad nauseum. Other previous issues with my playing (like trouble in upper clarion stability) have gone away, and I continue to get better and more confident overall day after day. So I press on. Any specifics you can offer will be appreciated.
Which Legere series would you suggest?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-06 18:47
One more clarification. In Tom Ridenour's fingering book, he says about extreme altissimo that these notes may not play without the lower teeth against the reed. I can ALWAYS get C4 to play that way. I need C4 to play with my standard lower lip embouchure as I run up to it, usually slurring from high A or G. I haven't even bothered to refine the bottom teeth method, because I'm not generally wanting just an isolated C4 where I'd have time to adjust my bite.
So I wonder which way Keith is playing that high D4.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: gkern
Date: 2014-02-06 23:54
Marlborough Man - is that on your CT with the C85 mpc?
Gary K
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-02-06 19:00
During the heyday of the swing era, Artie Shaw because famous for his ability to play these top altissimo notes, night after night, without squeaking, pinching, or otherwise faltering. Benny Goodman, according to veteran sax players Phil Woods and Bud Shank, always had more trouble getting the top tones out. If you take the time to listen to old Shaw performances, you will hear that "diamond" sharp sound and control he had at the top. even when playing lyrical solos.
Today, there are many players who are quite facile in the upper altissimo. To name just a few: Tony Coe, Andy Firth, Robert Springs (who plays an octave or so higher than that), the remarkable student of Jonathan Cohler, Benito Meza, Jorge Montilla (who also easily plays these notes on the little Eb clarinet), and, of course, Martin Frost. And, many more.
Actually, every first chair clarinet in every symphony orchestra in the world has to be able to play a fluent scale up to the C# above the note you gave as highest. This is required in the famous Variaciones Concertantes for orchestra by Alberto Ginastera. Online, you can pull up Thomas James Kmiecik's PhD. dissertation: "Clarinet Performance Practice for Alberto Ginastera's Variationes Concertantes--Solutions for Orchestral Auditions and Performance."
As the title implies, if you are auditioning for clarinet (esp. 1st chair) in an orchestra, you had better be ready to play this part. The dissertation outlines how some very fine players have approached the challenges of this work.
Youtube abounds in clarinet performances of this work, some in the full orchestra, some in a chamber setting, some alone as a solo. The performances are very instructive, ranging from quite bad to very impressive,
The URLs are too cumbersome for me to type, but if you put in the right key words, the performances easily come up. Listen for example to
Mark Dover Ginastera Clarinet Variation mp4 Nicely played with a bright sound.
Ginasteraclarinetvariation David Crespo Very fine dark-toned performance
on a German Oehler system clarinet
Ginastera Variaciones Concertantes (Clarinet Variations) Christopher Rohrs
Good centered Buffet sound
A. Ginastero Variazione in Modo di Scherzo per clarinetto Pado Beltramini renders the passages in a light Italian bel canto style.
So you can see these notes can be negotiated on a wide range of playing gear and with very different timbres. It's all in a day's work for today's orchestral clarinetists.
Finally, there are some players who take high note playing to a new level.
Like any other pioneering effort the slope can be steep and the perils high. (Meaning you can play the notes terribly out of tune or miss them altogether if you are not careful).
One such pioneer climbing in the Alps of clarinet playing is Mate Bekavac.
To hear him go where none (or few) have gone before go to YouTube and
search for Carmen Sarasate Fantasy part 1 and part 2 Mate Bekavac.
Enjoy!
Post Edited (2015-01-04 07:05)
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Author: William
Date: 2014-02-07 00:01
I practice scales going up to those notes every day so when I want to play one of those high C's, it's no big deal. Also, I use synthetic reeds that do not die in the middle of a gig or practice. For your practice, start with an E major scale from low E for three octaves, up and down. Then F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B and C, all for three octaves up and down........memorized is best. Practice different articulations--I like single, double and triple tongued work as well as slurs. When you get bored, switch to scales in thirds, same routine from low E. Consistant work will help make your entire clarinet range quite easily playable with little or no embouchure adjustment. And, your reeds will seem to work better as your chops improve......have fun driving your neighbors dog crazy.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 00:36
Robert,
Thanks for the wealth of info! This will take me some time to process.
I may go read that dissertation first.
At least I know I'm not trying the impossible. My methods may be incorrect or less than ideal- that I can hope to fix in the long run.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 00:42
Thanks, William.
What I take from your post is that every session has to be a complete workout of everything you need or want to do. And that is not always the most fun thing to do on a given day, nor may it fit what you need to work on at the point (maybe you're preparing one piece that has to be ready in a few days, for example).
And eventually, issues do drop away one by one. Sometimes you can't even figure out what happened, a problem is just gone. This one remains stubborn for me, but at least I have hope that this, too, shall pass.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-02-07 01:34
I can play up here just fine on just about any clarinet in decent adjustment, with most mouthpieces. Some sound better than others though.
My current setup is a CT with a Benny Goodman signature model mouthpiece, refaced by Brad Behn. But a C85 is no problem either--sounds quite good on the CT, actually.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-02-07 01:37
Sorry the Legeres haven't worked as well for you. I have no suggestions beyond this--I use classic and Ontario cuts, but have no problems with them.
Good luck--keep going after it.
I like the suggestion to listen to Artie Shaw especially. Emulating what he did is how I developed a lyrical and strong approach to the altissimo.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-07 05:46
I can hit those high altissimo sounds pretty regularly — as isolated notes. (Legere Quebec 3¼) What I have difficulty with is working them into a melodic flow. That means it'd be relatively easy to to trot them out as the last held note of a solo . . .
oldest cliche in the book, right there with using the "shave and a haircut" tag. So I don't use them in performance much but I do like to incorporate them into daily practice as a way to exercise and improve control of the airstream.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-02-07 06:18
I practice getting up there, but have no occassion to really need it. I know Allan Vache uses it VERY often. His solos are all over the clarinet, up that high, and well worth it.
This year is when I start my jazz studies (just gonna start working on it with a local teacher and practice what I can). Ask me again in about ten years if I'm ready to start incorporating them.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 01:19
kilo, I agree the high last note is a cliche, and I protest against that sometimes by soft endings or some other kind of flourish, or I just stop.
But I remind you of something I read from Stephen King, along the lines of "In my business you never want to lose your taste for good baloney." In other words, overdone things are usually overdone because they work- like when I'm doing professional portraits in Magic Kingdom (one of my other hats) and the client wants to pose in one of the Kodak Picture Spots. Who am I to argue? So don't let your desire to be different make you less effective. That's my view, anyway.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-02-07 11:29
Vache does play well in the altissimo, and his wife, Vanessa, is a good classical clarinetist and teacher, by the way. Since this thread is continuing, I 'd like to add a few more thoughts on high register playing. To know how playing up there is accomplished, you have to listen to players who do it expertly and as natural as breathing. So much of clarinet playing is really "monkey listen, monkey do," that no matter how many books of altissimo fingerings you collect, nothing will replace copying the good sounds you hear in other players.
Most clarinetists avoid the upper altissimo whenever possible or think of it as the occasional note that occurs in climax phrases in Rossini, Weber, or even the end of the Shaw Concerto. Or the climax high notes in the Copland Concerto. Unfortunately, this usually creates the mind set of "tense up and play it, and let's hope the high notes don't come back too soon!" The real masters of high notes do not feel this way. They think of high notes as always welcome and play them simply as frequent intervals from lower notes.
To hear this, search on Youtube for "Jorge Montilla Registro De Pajarillo." Montilla plays very wide intervals jumping all over the little Eb clarinet's range without breaking into a sweat and maintains a flexible embouchure and sound. It does not seem to matter to him if the next note is at the top of the clarinet's range or the bottom or somewhere in between. The sound quality is the same. Also youtube to "Wuaraira Concerto Jorge Montilla"
and listen to him play all over the place on a larger clarinet. He plays the top notes as easily as a flutist--no big deal. Flexibility is the key. He can even gliss down from high notes if he has to--just like Artie Shaw but in a Rain Forest folkloric style instead (think exotic bamboo flutes.)
Another classical player who aces the high register is Benito Meza (now teaching at MIT?) Youtube search to "Benito Meza plays Chopin etude" and listen to him spill out this multi-noted composition--almost all in the altissimo-at a furious pace, still maintaining good liquidity and substance in the tone. No big deal for him either. No pinching and tensing into shrillness--just playing in one of the many registers that come with the clarinet and keeping the embouchure flexible
How to develop this flexibility? Listen finally to the fine lecture demonstration on legato technique by Mark Hattner. Hattner shows how to work through the Baerman III book on scales, intervals, and chords while playing a supple legato. Getting into the altissimo is mostly a matter of getting the lips, air stream, and fingers to produce a fine legato and then extending the legato higher and higher to include the highest notes. Baermann himself must have had great chops to play the exercises in his book. Listen and copy and be as patient as Hattner says you must be. He says listen to yourself after playing through Baerman exactly as he prescribes, bridging every interval accurately, in perfect meter, and with developing lip flexibility for a year.
At the end of the year, you should play more securely and evenly all over the instrument, including in the altissimo. To listen to Hattner's six-part lecture, youtube search to "Mark Hattner: Clarinet Legato."
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-02-07 15:11
I'm guessing that the 2nd high C above the staff won't happen reliably with a reed strength 3 or below.
I have found the new Gonzalez GD reeds noticably better in reaching that C and all the notes up to it. Moreover, it continues to play reliably as I play 2 - hours.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-02-07 10:15
I'm guessing that the 2nd high C above the staff won't happen reliably with a reed strength 3 or below.
I have found the new Gonzalez GD reeds noticably better in reaching that C and all the notes up to it. Moreover, it continues to play reliably as I play 2 - hours.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-02-07 16:27
Quote:
I'm guessing that the 2nd high C above the staff won't happen reliably with a reed strength 3 or below. I use a 3.5 or 3.25 and it happens fairly reliably for me (the fault definitely does not feel like the reed for me) as I warm up with slow scales every day. Don't assume you need a harder reed (you MAY, but don't assume it).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-02-07 17:19
Reed strength has almost nothing to do with it. Pete Fountain played a 2.5 his whole career and had a better altissimo than many classical players using 4s and 5s (believe me, this isn't hyperbole....I've spoken to well respected classical professors who play on this equipment and insist that hard reeds are essential to altissimo--they are entirely wrong, though, and weren't always happy when I demonstrated for them). Having said this, most classical players now understand that the "squeeze and hope" method of altissimo isn't any more satisfactory than the equally foolish "abs of steel" or "reeds of steel" myths.
What seabreeze wrote above is worth the read--I skimmed it and it seems pretty well on target.
I use Legere 3s every day, and without warming up I can play any note on the clarinet, from low E to double C.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-02-07 17:25
...another player worth listening to in the altissimo is Buddy deFranco, who in many ways was so proficient that his near total command can go unnoticed. I call this the "Jimmie Noone Effect." Noone was so technically brilliant, making some incredibly difficult feats sound easy, that people weren't as impressed as they would have been had he struggled more. If Noone, or DeFranco had just been a little less amazing, they'd be hailed as greater geniuses!
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-07 19:04
Stan: I enjoyed your playing even though I am a classically trained player.
I wish I could help further with playing solutions for you, but what I can do is refer you to how this website can display musical notes on a staff, so that no ambiguity remains regarding whether the note you are referring to is "your C4," but known on this site, for example, as a C7.
I'm confident you can see this musical note: ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) . It was made by placing square opening and closing brackets respectfully around the text "C7" (minus the quotes.) If you click the "Help/Rules" and "Smileys/Notes" links at the top of a thread, you can see more information on this.
In the meantime, enjoy this by the aforementioned Mate Bekavac.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrS-CanzAtU.
Like Martin Frost, this man is beyond virtuoso, he's a clarinet "magician."
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 14:38
Excellent food for thought- Robert.
I especially like the idea of all registers being considered equal. For example, I want any note, anywhere on the clarinet, to be as loud or as soft, or as long or as short, as I want it to be, any time I play it- no matter what notes led up to it or at what speed. Such a simple requirement- and so difficult to accomplish.
Oh, let's add- and pitch bent up or down or vibratoed (is that a word?) as much or as little as I choose (for musical not technical reasons). And I want every note to speak on demand without delay or fuss. Not so much, is it?
Actually, you'll understand this better if you know where I'm coming from. I'm a truant keyboard/synth player who only got back onto clarinet in old age (played modestly in hs/college). Many times as I arranged "clarinet parts" or "flute parts" or "trumpet parts" on Cakewalk or previously on hardware sequencers, I was happy but unhappy with the results. Real is better. All I want now is for my real clarinet to behave like a synth keyboard- you want a note, anywhere, you just touch it and it'll be there. By contrast, imagine a piano keyboard where some notes play very nicely, others randomly won't play, or squeak(!), or delay their response, or play some other notes instead. I have played on some bad pianos kind of like that, but mostly you just don't put up with that.
I'm also immensely enjoying dynamics after a note starts (can't do that on piano), and pitch bending. I know some synth player do well with pitch wheels and such (even old breath controllers)- but I never mastered the coordination- besides, I needed both hands to play keys.
THIS SONG is an example of an old keyboard/synth sequenced arrangement of mine, that now I've added clarinet. There's a few C4's
in it after the key change toward the end. If I want to play this in churches, I need to reliably hit them, otherwise it seems a bit foolish to try and fail. Not the end of the world though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgx0Mh9IEkA
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 19:58
Hi BflatNH,
Thanks for the input.
Through my 3.5 year clarinet journey I've tried a lot of stuff. And I've heard many times about harder reeds for higher notes. So I kept striving and trying harder/stronger reeds, but have ultimately failed at that and am now trying to stay with my original 2.5's. With my years of Legeres I even rejected 2.75, and mostly used 2.25 and 2.5. For a time I was making myself use Mitchell Lurie 3.0 and 3.5, but I recently recalibrated myself on Vandoren blues and rejected their 3.0 in favor of 2.5. Sigh.
But remember that my problem is not in playing my range on my chosen strength and setup- I'm actually golden. My problem is that it won't hold over a reasonable playing period. So your suggestion of this new Gonzalez reed is actually worth a shot. I see them available down to 3.25, in full boxes of 10 as usual. I can (ATG) adjust the strength down as needed, or perhaps their 3.25 is similar to a Vandoren blue 2.5 (or it could go the other way). Sure wish I could try 1 or 2 somewhere- maybe I'll call around Otown.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-02-07 20:07
When I play altissimo, how I play sometimes seems to depend on which note, or group of notes I play. For instance, to me it seems that the altissimo notes are grouped (for my chromatic fingerings):
C6# - E
F - G#
A
A# - C7
where I voice the note group differently, the most notable being E6 and A6 (almost the same fingering for me). Playing on a --K13 mouthpiece and a balanced 3 and softer reed (and some harder), A6 or B6 is often not a problem, but a half-step higher C7, for my mouthpiece, is harder to coax out. Other reeds (of the same brand and strength) stop dead at G6.
Just my experiences.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 15:11
Eric,
Thanks again for more useful info. I did not know Pete played on 2.5. You have no idea how relieved I am to learn that. On the other hand he did not play particularly high (that I've heard). But man- what a sound!
And I know reed strength is only part of the equation- mouthpiece being the 2nd largest factor. I think my Vandoren 2RV actually wants a higher strength reed(?) and I'm using it with softer, so maybe I'm double dipping. Early on I had a clear Ridenour RC10 (not sure of model #) and an old 2RV that came with a used clarinet beat it out. Later I bought a new 2RV- that after 3 yr of daily play looks tired but plays good. I've tried a few other random mouthpieces throuh the years but nothing beat the 2RV. However, my new ATG reed finishing system has been such a watershed change (improvement!) for me- all my reeds are well balanced now!- that I'm revisiting mouthpieces a bit. Any day in the mail I expect a new Ridenour Encore student model with rave reviews... we'll see- I have no idea how facing and tip compare to 2RV, but it'll be a data point no matter what. Also on its way is an old Selmer C* which, from what I read, is similar tip/facing to my 2RV. Again it'll be another data point. Ah, always looking for that magic change that will cure all my troubles. :-)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-07 15:13)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 15:18
Hi Russ,
Thanks for you kind comments. And for the info and especially how to show notes on the staff, which I've already used in another comment here.
Actually I'd rather show C4 (C7) as C3 (C6) with an "8va" mark above. To me that's actually easier to understand, and easier to read on a piece of sheet music during the heat of battle. So, (1) is there a way to show that symbol here? (I should probably go reading the site help section, LOL.) And, (2) do other players agree with me about preferred notation? or do all of you just love all those ledger lines?
Man, I've got a lot of stuff to read and listen to from all these comments... wonderful.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-02-07 15:52
Pete rarely played higher than a double Bb---but he went up that far often, and deceptively so. if you don't check or have perfect pitch, it can see like he's playing and F or a G. But he routinely went higher, with that same smooth sound.
Keep swinging, man! You'll get it!
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-07 21:16
"squeeze and hope", "abs of steel", "reeds of steel" LOL love it
been there, done that- hope to stay away for good
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-08 00:53
Stan-I'm unaware of any mechanism that may exist on the bboard that allows use of "8va" type musical notation.
Cheers
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-10 09:49
Just starting to work my way through some of these YouTube suggestions...
Artie Shaw Stardust http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBGdCpEliT0
very nice even slur of E F# G A B ![[B6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b6.gif) (there's one of my notes!) at 2:13.
Seems like not a lot of solo time for Artie in this song.
I liked Christopher Rohrs' Ginastera http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtKgmEPNgUs, especially his running popup commentary. Music should not be taken too seriously, which is not the same as saying one should not be prepared. I also skimmed the doctoral dissertation on how various clarinetists approach this work, and I must say it sounds a bit like preparing to operate on a stubborn microscopic brain tumor that is just almost within reach. I think this composer has/had a wicked streak. Do the other instruments work that hard?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-10 10:36)
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2014-02-10 23:57
Very interesting discussion!
For the first time, touching the reed with my teeth met with success for me on ![[A6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a6.gif) . For those who have experience, I'd be interested in thoughts from you about how to vary the pitch once a sound comes out, and whether there are any special considerations for those who play double-lipped. Additionally, any tricks in faster passages to change the embouchure from lower lip on reed to teeth?
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-11 01:06
Attachment: PF140210.png (30k)
Ed,
Congratulations on hitting a new note! ...nice feeling.
I realize I have been operating under an unwarranted assumption- that all these super players have kept lower lip on the reed as they play up high. It seems so unreasonable to me to switch lip on / lip off as you suggest. But perhaps some players have perfected this sleight of teeth. Maybe some do and some don't? How could we know? I'm trying to do it all the "hard" way, with lip.
My absolute favorite clarinet recording is Pete Fountain on Bravo from 1992 "Do You Know What it Means to Miss New Orleans?":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mimWHUWuaG4
It's a long clip and worth the listen. But one little section has always intrigued me... around 2:39 he works his way up to the high note in the piece, a "double Bb". ![[Bb6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/bb6.gif)
I attached a piece of my transcription of this song showing the riff. Anyway- I've always wondered why Pete's tone changes a bit through here. And now I'm thinking perhaps he's switched his lower teeth to hit the high note?
And that's how I guess you'd have to do it- switch for an entire phrase that might include lower notes (how low can you do teeth?).
So the rest of you- are you teethers? or non-teethers?
PS- Another interesting exercise is to figure out Pete's fingering for double Bb from the video. I abandoned my previous choice after seeing this, and found jumps from F to Bb to finger and play more easily. Now I pop up to Bb at a moment's whim when I'm in the neighborhood of F-G, probably too much. I wish the C was that easy, then I wouldn't even be asking about it here.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-11 01:54)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-02-10 21:01
I second Eric. Years ago, Sigurd Rasher extended the range of the saxophone far past that envisioned by its inventor. Rasher didn't do it by putting his teeth on the reed and neither do most good saxophone players today who play the harmonics on their instrument fluently and musically, whether in jazz, commercial or classical music. Of course, for special effect, a player can honk and squeal if the music calls for such things (for example Illinois Jacquet). For a more mainline approach, listen to Paul Desmond coaxing out those harmonics on his alto sax as part of the improvisational texture he is weaving. He is treating the notes as integral parts of the musical phrase structure, sometimes emphasizing them, sometimes understating them. He knew his embouchure and his instrument contained the whole extended gamut of the sax range. Clarinetists should think in exactly the same way. In all the many performances I heard of Desmond, he often played very high harmonics but never one grandstanded them or looked like he was abandoning the normal bottom-lip-over-the-teeth embouchure.
Even very old clarinet methods show the 4th C as part of the normal range of the instrument, probably because it is fingered on the treble soprano recorder in exactly the same way (except for the recorder having no register key). If altissimo notes are part of the normal range, they should be produced with a normal embouchure. Any player who does not think of the top notes of the altissimo as standard is only divorcing himself (herself) from the history of the clarinet and creating unnecessary problems.
Now if you're trying to imitate Cat Anderson's stratospheric trumpet notes (perhaps an octave or more above the established clarinet range) you may or may not need to put teeth on the reed, I will leave that question to those bold enough to explore that region.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-02-10 22:42
In 1953, Guido Petenari played two solos with the Santa Monica City Band, one of which was "The Flight of the Bumble Bee" on bass clarinet. He played up to an E5 above double high C. While not well known, he played some with the Los Angeles Philharmonic. He had a very fast tongue!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-02-11 04:14
Yes, there have been some brave souls who have scaled those heights. In the collection of the Michigan State University Library is a book by Dick deBona,
"Super Altissimo System for Clarinet: Extend Your Clarinet Range into the 5th Octave--A New Octave for the Bb Clarinet." This was published in Mass. in 1988. All I can say is good luck; negotiating the first 4 octaves is plenty enough for me.
Paul Drushler has a good book on a partials approach to the altissimo similar to the approach Rasher and Ted Nash used on the saxophone. Another useful book is Norman Heim's, which follows the method of developing a single consistent embouchure for bridging wider and wider intervals at higher and higher pitches (Just the sort of thing David Hattner lectured on in his series on legato techniques using the Baermann III).
Flute players practice high register studies by J. Filas. William Higgins has transcribed these in "Altissimo Studies for Clarinet: 90 Melodious Studies from Filas." Kalmen Opperman in his "The New Extended Working Range for Clarinet" includes fingerings for some notes above the traditional range but does not offer any explanation of how to use them.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-11 04:54
FYI my double high C fingering is LH G#R12 / RH 23 C# (Ridenour's #3), which (when it works) is a better slur up from G or A than is LH R12 / RH 24 C# (Ridenour's #2). I never got much out of the other numbers.
My double high B is LH R123 / RH 24 C#. I'm not finding this in Ridenour's book, so I guess I made it up as a variation on the C. When the C works, this B always works too.
I would love to learn more reliable alternatives, that might work when my reed has gone too wimpy to play high B-C using my fingerings (even though it still plays Bb and lower). Or perhaps you can redirect me to some fingerings I've rejected too hastily.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-11 04:55)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-12 10:30
I took some video today to show what's happening to me- how I can take a reed that's refusing to play my top notes, adjust it so it will play them, and then within a few minutes I'm back where I started. I can fix it again, but I need out of this cycle, or at least some way to extend how long I can play without needing a refix.
Please see
http://www.FLmemories.com/C/Clarinet140211b.wmv.
The whole thing is under 3 minutes, and the important points are at about :35 where I've fixed the high notes, and then at the end where they've stopped working again.
This is a long thread (thanks for all the responses!), and suggestions still on the table are 1) try Legere again, 2) try Gonzalez GD, 3) try harder reeds in general, and I guess 4) study the books etc on high ranges.
I've asked Mr. Ridenour for his input on how to fix my reeds more "permanently", and perhaps I will hear something from him. For now I'm just glad I have his ATG system available to do even a temporary fix. Before ATG it was really hit and miss (sanding and grinding without good direction).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-13 18:29
Well, I've done some more reading, and I've got a few things to try.
1) I'll rub the surface of the reeds with my forefinger- at least when new and every time I sand them.
2) I will paint the back ends of at least a few reeds with clear nail polish. CORRECTION since my esthetician/nail artist/chemist daughter says to keep that stuff away from my mouth- even fumes that would pass through to tip of reed. Perhaps melted candle wax. Safe alternatives, anyone?
3) Perhaps most important, I will try breaking in some new reeds slowly, only a few minutes per day. Up to now I've followed the protocol I read from somebody else here on BBoard, "I break in reeds by pretending they're already broken in." or words to that effect. One place also said avoid altissimo during breakin. That's exactly the opposite of what I've been doing- since my principal concern of late has been high altissimo, I've been jumping all over high notes and testing them over and over, from the first toots on each new reed. So I will also try to break in low.
4) If #3 proves important, I will see if I can revive the reeds that I did not break in properly. Whether that works or it doesn't- that's important info.
If any or some combo of these cures my reed problems, I will have confirmed something useful. On the other hand, if nothing changes (and I'm still in the same funk)- I will have dispelled at least 3 old wives' tales (old clarinet geezer tales?). Watch this space for further reports.
Any predictions from the peanut gallery?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-13 20:27)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-19 04:50
I found an answer to my original question, which was... How can I break my cycle of clipping and sanding to keep a reed where it will play C7 ? These are Vandoren blue traditional 2.5's.
I either place the reed on my ATG glass plate and rub out the water from the tip with my finger or thumb, or I leave it in place on mouthpiece, slip a Bari plastic reed upside down behind it, and gingerly perform a slightly more risky delicate rub with finger or thumb. (Glad I finally found a use for that Bari reed- sorry Bari.) Either way, I always get my high notes back for at least a while- and it seems a totally renewable process. Furthermore, it seems the time interval between operations is growing and I hope eventually reeds will stay put.
Also I have 3 reeds almost through a disciplined break in from new- and I'll continue to report on whether they behave better long term than reeds I just start using any old way. That comparison may take a while since I had to toss several reeds I had clipped down to ridiculous shortness- glad that approach is gone now.
So I am a happy camper, and getting happier about it all every day.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-19 04:53)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-19 02:15
"2) I will paint the back ends of at least a few reeds with clear nail polish. CORRECTION since my esthetician/nail artist/chemist daughter says to keep that stuff away from my mouth- even fumes that would pass through to tip of reed. Perhaps melted candle wax. Safe alternatives, anyone?"
My clarinet teacher, many years ago, used to rub the back of his reeds with beeswax. He said it made them less susceptible to waterlogging and failing at inappropriate moments
Tony F.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-19 12:09
Tony F wrote:
> My clarinet teacher, many years ago, used to rub the back of
> his reeds with beeswax. He said it made them less susceptible
> to waterlogging and failing at inappropriate moments
>
Thanks, Tony- that sounds very useful. It would be really sweet if beeswax on the flat side of the reed sealed it enough to prevent loss of high altissimo response during a longer playing session. Certainly worth a try or even 2! Hmmm... beeswax at Publix I wonder?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-02 08:21
It's been 10 days since my last report here. Sorry for the length of what follows. I'm trying to be thorough, and I don't know what is or isn't important.
- I took 3 Vandoren blue 2.5's (my numbers "1S", "1T", and "1Q") through a week long careful breakin- 5 5 5 10 10 10 10 min with little or no altissimo. Not how I like to use precious practice time, so it better be worth something if I'm to ever do that again. 1Q was ultimately unplayable and rejected. S and T are in my rotation with 2 others ("1P" and "1U") that are of similar age but were just thrown into the fray with no breakin. At this point I guess S/T are slightly better but that may just be because they do have more play time. Once all 4 of these have some more age and I finally quit adjusting them I will see whether there's a difference. And of course I will be interested in whether S/T have a longer useful life than P/U. I hope not.
- My newly discovered technique for restoring C7 play- squeeze/rub the tip of the reed- has allowed me to mostly quit clipping, so once I have each reed well balanced and compliant enough I'm good so long as I don't go too far. So yes I've clipped a few times but I think that's tapering off for all 4 P/S/T/U and all 4 are approaching equal playing characteristics.
- Beeswax proved hard to find in my regular routine, so I got some food grade canning paraffin- $4 for a pound that would last me about 500 years even if I used it every day. And I've rubbed modest amounts on front and back of some of the reeds. I've tapered off because it didn't seem to prolong the C7 play time (all pretty subjective). In the long term it might make a difference in reed life so I've put it aside for later investigation.
- Up to yesterday I was still discouraged at how short my C7 time was even after squeeze/rub on the mouthpiece or off. Sometimes less than one complete song. But this was still better than I was at the top of this thread- I would have had to sand or clip the reed to restore C7 play, now I can do something nondestructive.
- YESTERDAY I must have made some kind of subtle embouchure adjustment (believe me I've tried that 100's of times) and found I was able to consistently play C7 even on reeds that had gone "soft". That is, I could still tell the difference when the reed would shift on me- C7 would be harder to hit, sustain, or play with any volume than on a freshly adjusted reed- but I could still play and control it. I was so shocked I stopped and went through all 4 reeds P S T U, plus a few old rejects, and found the same thing. Then I played my entire concert set of 8 songs, on reed 1T, playing C7 pretty much whenever I wanted throughout the program, with only a couple of minor adjustments that would have been no big deal even with an audience.
- TODAY was not quite as good as yesterday (precise science on the clarinet is like nailing Jello to the wall)- but I was still happy. I am over some kind of hump, purely by technique- and that's always the best answer (equipment will seldom be optimum no matter what the name of your ligature).
- I still plan to invest or squander $32.50 on a box of 10 Gonzalez GD 2.5's just to see if they play easier up high as reported. There's always good old eBay if I decide I don't like them and have 6 or 7 new ones left over.
I'll post back here when I know more, whether that's in days, weeks, months, or years.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-03-02 03:31)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-02 14:48
Look up the "swab in the bell" voicing exercise.
THAT'S how to get the upper notes to speak easily.
It's all about non-articulatory tongue motion, and also can be about shifting position on the reed (Neidich is big on that)
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2014-03-03 06:24
"and also can be about shifting position on the reed (Neidich is big on that)"
Agreed.
Another piece that is way up there is the del Aguila Concerto. Not played very frequently, but it goes, and stays, way up in the altissimo C, D, and D#. I have a recording if it somewhere. Not that any of this answers any of your questions.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-09 07:05
I am over the hump on this issue. I am no longer worried about maintaining B6-C7 on my concert set. As of the last week or 2, they are almost always there- either "easily" (just finger and they play) or with a bit of extra concentration and perhaps a tiny air break before rather than insisting on a slur up to it. And this is whether at the beginning of play session or 30 min into it. Now I am relaxing more and thinking more about the music, and my improvisations are prospering.
So far as I know, the important factors were:
1) I slowed/stopped the clipping cycle with the tip squeeze, allowing me to work longer with each reed in a particular configuration with less fussing.
2) I improved my voicing of the notes under conditions where the reed was not helping so much. Swab in bell may have helped- it at least let me validate my technique.
3) I trimmed the tips to better match the tip shape of my 2RV mouthpiece. See other thread about that.
4) (Later edit) Beeswax on the back of the reed seems to prevent the tip from softening with play (waterlogging?), so even the tip squeeze is no longer needed. Paraffin rub, or just finger rub, did nothing.
So far as I know, these were unimportant:
-- Reed breakin was a bust. Reed 1S is a current winner, but so is 1P. I want back the extra hour I spent on 1S. Even if 1S proves to live a bunch longer than 1P it will not be worth the lost practice time for the structured special breakin. That economy could be reversed for someone else, just be sure you do the experimentation and the math.
Perhaps in some weeks or months I will post here again after working with more types of reeds or trimmers or mouthpieces, or when I have more conclusions.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-21 06:26)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-21 06:05
And yesterday I finally got some real beeswax. (eBay seller, 99 cents per stick plus $1.59 shipping- I bought 2 sticks- looks like even 1 would be a 20 yr supply.)
I am not happy with my application process so far, rubbing on the back of the entire reed. It's sticky and tends to clump in places, hard to smooth out, and hard not to damage tip of reed (most important location maybe). And since I've applied all the way to the bottom of the reed, now they're sticking to the mouthpiece. Probably I'm using way more than needed, over time I will work my way down to the minimum zone and thickness to get the job done, and how often it must be reapplied. I also think it would be easier if applied warm or hot, details to be determined.
However... the change was immediate. I'm still working with my Vandoren blue 2.5's (nothing yet is any better- Gonzalez GD coming later). With the beeswax, any reed that starts off playing B6-C7 without a fight- keeps playing them indefinitely, with little or no degradation. No more tip squeezing required. 2 days now, 5 or 6 different reeds have shifted how they behave. Yet another incremental but important improvement. Thank you, Tony F!!!
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-21 06:23)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-09-22 07:48
Brief update. I look back over this long thread and there is much I'd like to just delete, but who knows- maybe even the dead ends will prove useful to somebody. I did want to set the record straight.
I now am consistently able to play the high Bb B C with little or no issues. I'm using Vandoren blues and/or Gonzalez GD, doesn't seem to matter which. No beeswax or other strange things. The reeds don't quit on me, I play 3 or 4 songs and rotate to a different one, but wouldn't have to. I'm breaking in my reeds in a fairly rigorous fashion but I'm not a nut about it. I adjust them with my Ridenour ATG system and a good number of reeds become playable.
What changed? Mainly my playing technique got better... Paul Aviles' embouchure advice, swab in the bell, and just beating on it until it yielded. I am better at adjusting reeds. Also, and perhaps critically, I fixed some leaks, which (I don't fully understand why) helped these top notes in addition to the ones right around the leaky pads. Some of it maybe I will never pin down, but I don't really care- the problem is gone- I hope for good.
Here's a recent recording (Oct 15, 2014)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFLJTf_a6O0
with C7 at 3:27.
Hmmm.... maybe I'd also like a C#7 ![[C#7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/db7.gif) or D7 ![[D7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/d7.gif) occasionally.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-10-16 20:55)
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-09-22 08:29
Seeing all these people talk about c4's and f4's just blows my mind while sitting here just trying to get f# to get out consistently and can't even find the fingerings for those notes.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-09-22 17:06
A reliable fingering for C#7 is the standard fingering for C7 plus the bottom three trill keys, opened by bending my wrist up to open the keys.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2014-09-23 03:36
These past 7 years I've dabbled at the high end of my range pretty much every day. The following is intended to use standard "scientific" pitch notation (where the OP's C4 becomes C7).
With practice, the high end gradually gets easier, better, and higher. For me, early on, anything from G6 to C7 were iffy propositions. These days, scales routinely run at decent speed to C7. Pitches up to E7 are reliable, though the scales still slow down in that interval. This is with (almost) any practiceable reed, no teeth. Practice at various dynamics with various articulations.
With a good reed, F and F#7 are still iffy, as are G and G#7, and A7 even more so - I can hit them but not reliably or particularly well. I expect to gradually incorporate these pitches into my usable range as lower pitches have been incorporated.
I play a small cadenza in Miluccio's #2 of 8 Grande Etudes. The cadenza goes to F7 and then C#8, the latter of which seems to require teeth on the reed. Damnably unreliable, but I feel confident I can eventually do it. (I'd like to include this piece "someday" in a solo recital.)
In community band I occasionally have played piccolo or Eb clarinet music on Bb clarinet, including solos in Sousa's Stars & Stripes (goes to Bb6) and in Goldman's Chimes of Liberty (C7). So, you never know when high altissimo might prove handy.
Just keep trying, it can be done, it can be figured out - and it can profit your overall tone production. There isn't much music written for these pitches, so you needn't feel maniacal pressure to pursue them, but scales and improvising just naturally seem to want to go, UP,
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[C5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c5.gif)
, ![[C6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c6.gif)
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