 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-01-23 23:47
I am wondering if playing the clarinet would affect my hearing and make me slightly deaf / less sensitive to sound (level, not pitch). Should I wear hearing protection of some sort... (it wouldn't be nice to hear a muffled sound while practicing though).
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-01-24 04:55
Yes, if , like me ,you sit in front of the trumpets blowing right at your head.
richard smith
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-01-24 10:14
I used to visit my brother rehearsing in a big band in Lynn Oliver's little recording studio on Broadway and 90 something street in Manhattan. This was back in the 70's and in a room only the size of 25 feet by 25 feet, they packed 5 saxs, 5 brass, a drum set, a piano, a guitar, a bass, the vibraphone all in that little room. They went through the traditional big band charts and at times the volume level was a little scary, but nether I nor my brother showed any signs of hearing damage. I was just tested a year or so ago and still no damage years later. Hearing damage comes from sustained high decibel sounds or short burst of very high decibels. Acoustic instruments stay right under the decibel range you can recover from. Electric rock bands, movie theaters, power tools, lawn mowers, car stereos, headphones, hammering often do not stay below acceptable and safe ranges. Full symphonic orchestras that are not amplified sometimes get to pretty high levels but only for short periods. I suspect that playing an orchestra presents a certain level of hearing loss risk if one is directly in front of the brass. A clarinet played solo in an average room does not reach dangerous levels and I say this not because I have measured it, but from comparing it to other sound levels I know to be on the border of dangerous.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: sdr
Date: 2014-01-24 17:29
Any loud sound can potentially harm hearing. Not all people are equally noise-sensitive --- there may be genetic or other differences that give some of us "tough" ears and some of us "tender" ears. Noise injury (a.k.a. acoustic trauma) is a "dose effect" --- the louder the sound, the less time it takes to harm you. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) guidelines for noise exposure in the workplace advise that you should not exceed 8hrs exposure at 90dB. For every 5dB increase in noise level, you must cut the time in half. Thus, 4hrs at 95dB, 2hrs at 100dB, etc.. but these guidelines were based on population averages and some of us are more or less vulnerable than others. Impulse noise (e.g. bending over near your drummer when he fires off a rim-shot) can exceed 140dB and cause "instantaneous" permanent damage.
For many years the dogma about noise injury was that the damage happened while you were in the noise and stopped when you left the dance club. Some degree of damage may be temporary --- a so-called "temporary threshold shift" or TTS -- that recovers over a day or two. It is due to mechanical damage to auditory hair cells in the inner ear hearing organ, the cochlea. If you've left a loud gig and your ears feel stuffy and they're ringing, you have a TTS. Some degree of damage may be permanent --- a "permanent threshold shift" or PTS. This is due to hair cell death from the loud sound. Now, here's the really horrifying news from acoustic trauma research over the last 3-4 years: Noise injury is a gift that keeps on giving. Even if you experience a TTS and threshold recovers, there is progressive ongoing degeneration of auditory neurons such that they "disconnect" from the hair cells and die. It is somewhat of a simplification of how the inner ear works, but generally, hearing loudness is a reflection of your population of hair cells, while hearing clarity is a reflection of your population of auditory neurons. If you lose neurons, the "cabling" from ear to brain, you have less bandwidth to carry the signal and it loses clarity. This is analogous to drop-out of pixels on a computer screen. Imagine a mosaic picture --- the smaller the tiles, the higher resolution the image and the larger (fewer) the tiles the cruder the image. Losing bandwidth in the auditory system means having fewer neurons to carry the signal so clarity goes down, making speech intelligibility worse and worse, especially in background noise. Like a radio station that doesn't tune in very well, turning up the volume does not compensate for poor reception.
If you are curious and/or worried about your noise exposure (and you absolutely should be!), I'd suggest you get a noise level meter app for your smart phone and see what you're getting exposed to. We've tested a number of them in our auditory research lab (just for fun) and found that most of the free ones are fairly accurate but one particular commercial one, "SoundMeter" by Mint Muse, is nearly as good as our $10K rack meters. It costs $19.99 last time I checked.
I strongly encourage you to get some musicians' ear plugs. Musicians' plugs have a flat frequency response so they don't distort the bass vs. treble, they just make everything a little softer. If you buy the off-the-shelf version, they cost about $20. They can be uncomfortable with extended use. They come in several different strengths depending on how many dB of attenuation you want. Remember from the beginning of this rant, if you knock of 5dB of sound, you can double your exposure time. Thus, you probably only need 8-12dB of attenuation, not the "thermonuclear" plugs that give 15-20dB or more ---- unless you are shredding in a heavy metal band. For about $125-175 you can get custom-molded musicians' plugs from your local hearing aid center. These also permit you to elect how much attention by the choice of filter insert embedded in the ear piece. They are MUCH more comfortable than off-the-shelf plugs, especially for extended use for several hours at a time. However, just like the off-the-shelf version, they only work..... if you put 'em in your ears! Not in your case. Not in your pocket. Not in your glove compartment. Playing with ear plugs takes some getting used to ---- you hear much more of yourself by bone conduction and less of the sound around you --- but it's well worth getting used to it if you hope to have your hearing last as long as you do.
-sdr
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Steven D. Rauch, MD
Professor, Dept. of Otology and Laryngology
Harvard Medical School
Assoc. Chief for Education and Academic Affairs
Otolaryngology Dept.
Mass. Eye and Ear Infirmary and Mass. General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-01-24 17:54
Thanks for the detailed response, Doc. Most valuable.
richard smith
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-01-24 18:17
>Yes, if , like me ,you sit in front of the trumpets blowing right at your head.
>
>richard smith
that was my thought too...
interesting that symphonic tradition to sit clarinet players in front of trumpets traced back to baroque and predates clarinet. In early baroque works clarinet parts were originally played by small high pitched trumpet "clarino", which incidentally gave the name for the instrument (clarinette) and 2nd register (clarion).
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Author: sdr
Date: 2014-01-24 14:20
More and more you see symphonic players using a plexiglas acoustic shield to separate the woodwinds or strings from the brass sections. Good idea!
-sdr
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-24 15:31
One night my wife and I went downtown to see Count Basie, I think at the 'Bottom Line" (might be wrong here). Well, there was a line around the block, as they say, and we thought we would never get in. Suddenly one of the door keepers spotted my wife and called us over. He was all smiles as he took us inside and set up a new table in front of all the others. He sat us down, snapped his fingers and a waiter came right over to take our orders. He whispered in my wife's ear, all smiles, and left.
After he walked away I said, "Who WAS that guy?"
My wife laughed. "He's the guy I buy our Christmas tree from every year at 86th and York."
I don't know if you know what 'column' speakers are, but that's what the Basie band had that night, 6 to 8 feet high on both sides of the bandstand, and the brass and sax soloists put the mics right inside the bell of their horns.
Not having ear plugs or cotton I started to stuff pieces of paper napkins into my ears. By the time we left my ears were red and actually inflamed, and they were hissing loudly with tinnitus which continued for several days.
Today I wear hearing aids for mild "ski slope" hearing loss. did the Basie band do it? Probably contributed. I also worked with high speed woodworking machines in youth without any protection. It all adds up. The cochlear hairs are damaged and cease functioning one by one.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Bruno.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-01-24 20:02
A few thoughts. ... First, I'm opposed to acoustic instruments using amplification. Some modern big opera houses use amplification, but there are venues that do not use any amplification. I believe Avery Fischer Hall is one of them, as is the Paris Opera House. Although I've yet to hear it, the new New World Symphony in Miami is all acoustic. When, I hear amplified music over pure acoustic, I feel cheated. Even though I have spent a lot of time and money setting up my home stereo, i.e. special wires, tubed preamps, room treatments, etc..., live acoustic music is especially moving and can not be matched by anything reproduced that I have heard to date.
I believe that some hearing damage is reversible. I can't say this for certain, because I have no research to back this up, but logic tells me that good nutrition can help in recovery, especially in the first days after an assault. (Vitamin C and E for example). I wear 20 decibel sound reduction for anything I do that even approaches loud. When I work at the Seaport, I have trained my ears to distinguish speech even with the ear plugs in. I make every effort to avoid loud sounds and I listen to the stereo at low volume levels.
I have read that hearing damage is cumulative, so that any opportunity to reduce excess sound levels should be taken advantage of. Power tools and loud car exhausts are about the most common insults. I won't even go into the pointless damage that can be suffered at something like a Justin Bieber concert.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2014-01-25 01:10
I like to think that 20 years of playing guitar in pub bands has improved my hearing so now I hear hisses and whistles that I couldn't hear before
However, I now look after my ears much more (horses and barn doors come to mind). I play in a wind band and we used to be in front of the trumpets - I regularly put in ear plugs to cut down on the volume
Everything I have read says that hearing damage is irreversible and progressive but I don't think a solo clarinet in a normal sized room would have much effect unless you played it a full volume for hours on end - but it would be interesting to hear from a hearing specialist
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
Post Edited (2014-01-24 20:11)
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2014-01-24 21:22
Sitting near an Eb clarinet, and having very good trumpets right behind me on a small stage during outdoor concerts, convinced me to get the molded ear plugs that Dr. Rauch mentioned. Of course, the ear plug sales lady was the same person who previously had sold me hearing aids because of hearing loss probably from not using ear plugs while playing in community bands for 25 years.
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-01-24 21:48
Thanks for the detailed information about sound levels and hearing damage. I downloaded a free sound meter app on my android phone and measured how loud my clarinet playing sounds. It constantly measures at 79dB. I tried yelling at my phone when it is placed close to my mouth, putting it in front of the clarinet bell while playing it loud, etc. but I think my phone cannot measure anything higher than 79dB. It never goes above it. My phone is Galaxy Note 2.
So I will need to find an alternative sound level meter - I am guessing that it's not the fault of the app, but rather the limitation of my phone hardware
I also saw a gadget that can be installed in the bell of the clarinet that will reduce the sound level. It is meant to dampen the sound so you can play while not disturbing other people. Has anyone tried it?
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-01-25 08:06
Actually, Steven, rather than me having to buy a sound pressure level meter just for a one off use, would you mind measuring what the loudest decibel a clarinet can make?
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-01-25 08:41
I found this by googling:
http://www.hearnet.com/at_risk/risk_trivia.shtml
That page says clarinet: 92-103 dB
So based on this:
"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) guidelines for noise exposure in the workplace advise that you should not exceed 8hrs exposure at 90dB. For every 5dB increase in noise level, you must cut the time in half. Thus, 4hrs at 95dB, 2hrs at 100dB, etc."
So does that means it should still be OK to play the clarinet for 2-3 hrs (is this per day or can we take a rest for 2 hrs and play again?)
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2014-01-25 18:11
"So does that means it should still be OK to play the clarinet for 2-3 hrs (is this per day or can we take a rest for 2 hrs and play again?)"
Is it written in stone somewhere that all clarinet practice must be done at full volume? I thought that was only a requirement for warm-up exercises when other musicians are present.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-01-25 18:39
>>Is it written in stone somewhere that all clarinet practice must be done at full volume? I thought that was only a requirement for warm-up exercises when other musicians are present.
>>
Especially if they're trumpet players. And even more especially if the band director tries out a new seating arrangement that puts the clarinets directly behind the trumpets. In which case naturally the clarinet players will assure the director that the music requires "bells up" in fff passages.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-01-25 23:59
This has been a great thread to follow. I ordered some HearosHigh Fidelity-Series Long-Term Earplugs (the new smaller version) today and am anxious to give them a try. Unfortunately, I already have a difficult time hearing one of the band directors I play with...now I won't be able to hear him at all. We practice in a very big university band room and his voice doesn't project well. Unfortunately, we're right in front of the trumpets...ouch. I'll just have to ask the other clarinet players to tell me what the director is saying I guess.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-01-25 19:43
The range of clarinet decibels given above is for fortissimo. Clarinet has the remarkable ability to play at very low volume levels, even in the altissimo range. If I can do it, it must be a readily accessible quality of the instrument.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: sdr
Date: 2014-01-25 22:01
OSHA Guidelines assume that you work 5 days a week. The recommended exposures are MEAN dB of ambient sound during the specified time interval.
-sdr
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-01-25 23:04
One idea I thought of is to wear an active earphone that has the "ambience" function. In other words, it plugs into your ears and blocks "some" of the sound, and has a microphone to pick up and pass through the surrounding noise / sounds to your earphones, except that it has a volume control. I don't know how well it would work in practice, but in theory, you still get to hear everything but you get to control the volume.
I think I have normal hearing, but sometimes I have to ask people to repeat what they're saying especially when they mumble over other noise (I would think that's normal). I might go get my hearing checked, just because there are places in Australia that offer it for free, and ask them if they have some such gadget (like the earphone I described above).
Thanks for the reminder to play softer! Being a beginner in clarinet... I suspect that all I am playing is fortissimo haha - I'm just struggling to make a "good" sound at this point. I'll try to play softer while practicing.
Post Edited (2014-01-25 23:14)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2014-01-26 05:29
Actually, sitting near the trumpets is what affects my hearing.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2014-01-26 00:30)
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-01-26 07:57
When I was growing up, the old lady that lived next door to me used to play her TV at super high volume that could be heard even through the thick brick walls that separated our apartments. She died soon after her hearing degraded to that point. From that very early age and thereafter I found myself deliberately avoiding all loud sounds that the late 60's and 70's were known for. This included storming out of live music bars when the music got too loud, standing in the hallways of discoteques instead of being on the dance floor, going to peace rallies and hanging out a block away instead of at the podium, stuffing my ears at movie theaters, covering my ears when loud cars go by, etc. What I found was that by avoiding loud situations, I came to appreciate the nuances in soft ones.
A couple of years ago, when I went to an audiologist for the first time, he detected only a slight loss of hearing in the mid high treble of about a 10 decibel drop. Strangely the ultra high treble was still intact as was the rest of the sound spectrum. The doctor said this kind of dip is unusual and unusually minimal in general for a man of my age (almost 60). I still have what I consider to be a high level of background brain noise in my head. When I'm in a quiet room I hear what sounds like static. The doctor said a certain amount of that is normal but he could not say for certain if the amount I described is excessive or normal because there is no measuring tool for extra brain noise.
I can't remember if I had this brain static when I was a young man. Maybe we all have it .. I have no way of knowing. Some of our hearing skills can be developed by focus and attention. I do notice that my sense of smell has deteriorated quite a bit from when I was a youngster. Everything had a smell decades ago. I could smell a bag of uncooked potatoes a room away and even things like newspapers and hairbrushes jumped out at me when I wasn't even close to them. Forget about my vision. Even though I get by most of the time without any corrective glasses, my visual acuity has still taken a sharp decline in the last 25 years. Sound is the one thing I'm still nearly perfectly attuned to and I'm holding on to that as long as I can.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-01-26 19:58
I think taking steps to protect our hearing really can work. Of course one lone example doesn't prove the rule, but as examples go, my dad-in-law is a good one: He hears so well that more than one doctor who's tested him has said things along the lines of, "Oh, wait, that can't be right. I've made a mistake," and re-tested him, and discovered that there was no mistake. Dad-in-law has freakishly good hearing for a man of any age ... let alone 94.
He's a retired radio reporter who began broadcasting in the 1930s when he was still in his teens. He protected his hearing from the get-go because he figured good ears meant good jobs. The unfortunate side effect today is that people his own age with typical hearing loss often drive him cuckoo with their shouting.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: sdr
Date: 2014-01-28 18:26
In an earlier part of this thread I mentioned the OSHA safety guidelines of 90dB for 8hrs and cutting that in half for every additional 5 dB. NIOSH, the National Institute of Safety and Health has much more stringent recommendations of 95dB for ONE HOUR as the limit for avoiding noise injury.
-sdr
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The Clarinet Pages
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