 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RonD
Date: 2014-01-22 19:25
Hello,
If you have a A442 clarinet, will an aftermarket longer A440 mouthpiece still play in tune?
Or, possibly, when a clarinet is advertised as A442 it is the accompanying mouthpiece that is made to play at A442 and the clarinet itself is never really made to play just for one or the other.
Thank You
Rond
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-01-22 14:45
Ron, in my experience, the only definitive answer is to check the tuning for yourself of a given mouthpiece and clarinet combination.
There are many, many combinations of clarinets and mouthpieces that are specified to play at the same tuning standard that, nonetheless, play out of tune.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2014-01-22 14:51
It is possible to bring it down to 440 with a combination of long barrel and mouthpiece. Makers and technicians can help.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-22 15:34
I'm reading this a "novice" question, so if I am wrong, please forgive me.
Most clarinets and mouthpieces on this side of the Atlantic are pretty standard and made to play where the standard pitch is around A=440. In Europe the pitch standard hovers a bit higher perhaps as much as A=445. But even with that the mouthpieces (at least of your Boehm manufacturers) are still pretty much the same.
You are looking at 'marketing.' Many manufacturers have started designating some mouthpieces as either 440 or 442. This really only means that the one of theirs labelled 440 plays slightly lower than their 442 model. I have been rather adament about the higher pitched mouthpieces being the ONLY true match for our standard clarinets here because they are the ones that allow a a truer representation of twelves (internal pitch remains more even and correct). There are many players that gravitate to the lower pitched mouthpieces out of a desire to keep pitch down (while still biting, or whatever is the root cause of their problem is) or because they mistakenly feel the lower pitch mouthpieces will automatically sound "darker" (richer timbre or something like that).
Personally I would stick with a standard pitch Vandoren (their NON 13 series) or other such "higher" pitch mouthpiece since you avoid a host of pitch problems by allowing you to navigating pitch "from the top down" rather than the other way around.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2014-01-22 16:00
It depends.
Some manufacturers make different instruments.
e.g. Buffet offers the RC both in European pitch (442-444) (with serial prefix F) and in American pitch (440). The length of the bodyparts and tonehole placement slightly differ. I owned the F version. To bring down pitch I could pull, not only the barrel but also between upper and lower body and even the bell. If you play always on A=440 I would prefer the 440 version.
Some manufacturers like H. Wurlitzer offer different barrels only.
If a mouthpiece comes in a 440 and a 442 version it means that the 440 version plays 2 cents lower. There is no absolute pitch of a mouthpiece, the final pitch is the result of instrument, mouthpiece and embouchure.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-01-22 21:42
not two cents - two Hertz which are about eight cents.
--
Ben
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2014-01-23 16:21
@Jeron,
Thats interesting. I suppose after you pull everything out the instrument will still be considered "in tune" with itself despite the difference in tone hole placements?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-01-23 21:53
You will still have to make some adjustments as you would normally do while playing to be sure everything is in tune with what's going on around you.
Buffet do make the claim in their more recent catalogues their pro level clarinets (R13, RC, etc.) are 440/442 depending on which barrel you use.
Whereas Selmer are more specific and stamp their instruments built to 442Hz on the back with 442.
I've managed to get up to 443Hz to play along to a CD on my Series 9 A with a 48mm barrel - hard work, but doable. Much harder work with an unaltered Vandoren 13 Series M15 (I took 1mm off the tenon and shoulder to sharpen it). But it's easier to play down to pitch than up to pitch, only you have to watch your tone quality doesn't suffer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-01-24 13:48)
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-01-24 02:00
Rico Reserve mouthpieces are build to 441Hz. Here is copied response from Josh Redman, D'Addario:
"Just wanted to let you know the Reserve mouthpiece is pitched at A=441 Hz. When we were designing Reserve, we made the decision to go with 441 to try to accommodate all kinds of players - solo, ensemble, chamber etc. Most orchestras and bands tend to play higher than 440 - even in the US."
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-01-24 03:45
I thought it had been clearly shown in earlier post that no mouthpiece has a specific pitch. The overall pitch is a combination of many factors and the mouthpiece is only one part of that.
A manufacturer can design a mouthpiece to play slightly higher or lower than the others in their range but not at any one specific pitch.
I see that for the Buffet DEVINE model the only difference between 440 and 442 is the barrel length - and at last they have seen sense and made barrels exactly same for A and Bb.
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-01-25 01:37
Norman, I used to think that typically a 65mm barrel would tune the instrument to 442Hz, and 66mm to 440Hz with the same mouthpiece. I still hold this view, but I started to stress "typically" in my mind. Why? Well, recently I started searching for a new, high quality mouthpiece in $200 price range, and suddenly I am not sure any more, because I keep finding reputable, well regarded mouthpiece manufacturers who often offer similar mouthpieces they claimed are build by them specifically to 440Hz or 442Hz. While I am presently unable to test those claims one way or the other it appears to me that there is no simple answer here.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-25 07:09
Derek b,
Rico Reserve mouthpieces are built to be A=441 in the same way "Coke is the real thing."
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-01-25 11:10
Paul,
I find it difficult to reconcile opinion like yours (which personally I find to be very realistic) with claims to the contrary coming from reputable craftsmen:
* Richard Hawkins describes different Bb mouthpieces models as: "Compatibility A=440-442", "hard rubber PRO model "G" is A=440"
* Bb mouthpieces by Charles Bay and Jonathan Bay: H1 and H2 Artist models: "440 pitch only", H3T Artist and Artiste Modele de Triomphe: "440 or 442 pitch".
I could go on, there are more similar examples. I am simply observing that some of the most reputable mouthpiece craftsmen CLAIM to offer mouthpieces build to pitch 440, pitch 442 or pitch 440-442. It is not uncommon for the same craftsman to sell similar models at the same price, describing one as "440", the other one "440-442", and yet another one "442".
Yes, it is easy to say: they lie to make poorly informed customers happy, they can not be seriously making such unrealistic claims. For me however this presents rather curious dilemma, as their customers happen to be the best artists demanding the best mouthpieces. Are they all idiots?
Is this going to change anything for me personally? No, not at all, I could not care less. As it happens clarinet is my hobby, my real profession is investigation of engineering and industrial errors, so... I am curious about things. It does not however change my attitude towards clarinet at all
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-25 20:29
Ok, it's not a "lie" exactly, but it's not an engineering truth either.
I am thankful that instrument making is done be "artisans" not engineers. There are engineers on this board that will tell you that it will not make any difference whether a clarinet is made of ABS plastic or aged African Blackwood because it is ONLY the accuracy of the internal dimensions of the horn that determine the timbre. OR BETTER YET, the only way to pick out gear is to have a stranger give you his assessment with a double blind listening test at the far end of a concert hall.
Just make sure as you try out mouthpieces (with a tuner) that notes like your throat "F" or the "C" two ledger lines above the staff aren't too low to ever get them to play at the same level as the rest of your notes.
And once you get every note of your horn right on the green dot on you tuner, don't be surprised if you find yourself in a group where for one reason or another (a stray draft over the first violins or an over zealous trumpet section) the pitch soars up and you then need some room on your horn (ability to "push in" at the barrel perhaps) to get up with the rest of them.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2014-01-25 23:14
Yamaha clarinets, which are used by many students and pros in North America, are all tuned to 442. All of their instruments are, even pianos. People here don't seem to have such a hard time getting them to pitch at 440.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-01-26 02:10
Peter Eaton can certainly be considered as amongst the leading mouthpiece makers today. Sabine Meyer has frequently sent her pupils to him for mouthpieces.
I would recommend that you look at his article on mouthpiece selection on his website.
He also articulates his opinion the the "pitch of a mouthpiece" (or not) in that section
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-01-26 08:37
>> There are engineers on this board that will tell you....... the only way to pick out gear is to have a stranger give you his assessment with a double blind listening test at the far end of a concert hall. <<
No rational person who is an engineer and relies on logic would claim something so ridiculous... Any reasonable engineer knows that picking a clarinet is subjective.
Post Edited (2014-01-26 16:44)
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