 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-12-02 17:09
I thought I'd throw some questions out to the community as bass clarinets are VERY expensive instruments, and for good reason. I'm an adult hobbyist and community band player and am currently playing on a Yamaha synthetic bass. I keep reading about the advantages of a professional caliber bass and have experienced the difference in the soprano clarinets first hand. I don't think it is prudent for me to buy a $10,000 instrument. I'm not paid to play after all and if I'm honest I'm more novice than professional by all measures. So a used, vintage bass might be the answer if I were to switch (Maybe switching isn't the answer? Another opinion I'm prepared to accept).
First question, would it really be an upgrade from modern student horn to vintage professional horn?
If so, is that true for all vintage professional bass clarinets or only certain models? (There definitely appears to be a bias toward the Selmer Paris instruments from 20+ years ago as opposed to its competitors and the used prices appear to reflect that as well)
Any thoughts on "intermediate" instruments such as the LeBlanc Esprit or the newly reintroduced Buffet 1180 as compared to a student model? Would this be an upgrade worth the money or does the "simple" register mechanism "level the playing field?"
Lastly, does anyone have an idea where to look for such instruments? I've trolled the online auction site but people are "restoring" these and then putting them up for sale. No returns accepted typically and no assurance that the work was done well which concerns me greatly as one can't play test the instrument. I haven't come across any good used ones for sale locally. Should I just keep an eye out and spread the word through trusted sources?
My preference, other than winning the lottery to buy brand new, would be to buy one unrestored and have a top person whom I trust bring it to its best possible condition, which is also expensive. I think durability or the ability to hold an adjustment is a consideration though I'm very careful with my instrument. Still not looking to visit the repair shop quarterly. I'm looking forward to some thoughts from this knowledgeable group!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-12-02 18:34
My advice would be to stick with your plastic Yamaha, it's probably good enough. Have it checked over by a good tech with bass clarinet experience to make sure it's really operating at 100%. Most importantly, GET A GOOD MOUTHPIECE. I'd recommend Clark Fobes, Walter Grabner, Roger Garrett, Pomarico crystals (my personal favorites but admittedly all have been refaced to suit my needs). Save your instrument dollars but instead spend a couple of hundred (tops) on a really good mouthpiece.
If you have a symphony bass clarinetist in your area it wouldn't hurt to grab a couple of lessons with same.
FWIW the Leblanc Esprit is basically a wood Vito and the Buffet 1180 is basically a rebadged Malerne, both have single register vent designs and will play only slightly better (if at all) than your PlastiYammie.
Post Edited (2013-12-02 19:11)
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-12-02 19:28
David,
I was hoping you'd respond. If I understand correctly you both play bass and restore vintage basses. I've read a bunch of your comments on the bulletin board.
I immediately purchased a good mouthpiece though I haven't compared it to any others. The Yamaha ones I've tried are basically unplayable. I bought one from Clark after emailing with him. I might try a Selmer C* that's been refaced as they seem to be very well respected (David McClune comes to mind).
I was looking at Vintage LeBlancs, Vintage Selmers and Vintage Buffets (I've also seen a couple of vintage SMLs and Conns). If I did decided to change to a vintage professional instrument, what are your thoughts on these instruments?
You seem to have a good back and forth with a friend and vintage LeBlanc player in previous threads. He plays a LeBlanc LL but seems to be one of the few who chooses Vintage LeBlanc bass clarinets. He made a distincing between 300, 400, 500 & 700 series if I recall correctly. Given the lack of information available regarding LeBlanc bass models I'm keen on your thoughts as they didn't hold their value that well and I routinely see LeBlanc instruments from the 60's available.
Thanks,
Brian
PS - May I ask what you choose to play?
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-12-02 19:40
I should also mention that I've been taking lessons on a weekly basis for 5 years though not with a symphony member. The gentleman who gives me lessons is a lifelong music educator who is a clarinetist with a masters in clarinet. I don't feel that I've outgrown him yet and his very positive, encouraging attitude has been much appreciated.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2013-12-02 19:56
A now-former orchestra colleague made an appointment at The Woodwind and Brasswind store in Indiana specifically to try out various bass clarinets. That's maybe a bit drastic (it's a substantial trip from here), but he walked out of there with one he liked.
Post Edited (2013-12-02 19:57)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-12-02 20:15
Thanks for the nice words, Brian (flattery will get you everywhere!). To answer your questions in turn:
1) I've never tried a McClune-refaced Selmer C* but I believe Ed Palanker (recently retired Baltimore Symphony bass clarinetist) uses one and has written good things about it. The Yamaha mouthpieces, from the factory, are only good as doorstops. I've managed to get three of them to play pretty well but only after an inordinate amount of refacing and interior work (not worth the effort!). If possible, try several from each of our favorite makers, as every mouthpiece is a bit different, even from the same maker with the same nominal specifications.
2) Of the Big Three current/older makers, I prefer Selmer-Paris, followed by Buffet, followed by Leblanc -- but I don't play any of them myself. Which leads to.......
3) ......What I play (you'll be sorry you asked): vintage Kohlerts mostly, restored and usually extensively modified; as well as a 1950s-ish German-system F. Arthur Uebel. I'm currently restoring yet another Kohlert bass, but it will not be done for a while. The vintage SMLs and the post-WWII Conn bass clarinets are actually 'stencils' made by Robert Malerne, they're not bad but are really student instruments, about on par with your plastic Yamaha. The pre-WWII Conns were bespoke instruments of reasonably good design, but most have a range only down to low-E and those remaining in circulation tend to be in pretty horrible condition.
4) I believe your remarks on the Leblanc line come from some postings by Larry Bocaner, retired bass clarinetist of the Washington, DC National Symphony Orchestra, who played on a customized Leblanc 500 model (if I recall correctly), which was a rare model with an enormous bore (as in somewhere around 26mm or over an inch). Larry is a fellow resident of Fairfax County, Virginia and a very nice guy, you should probably contact him directly for information on Leblanc basses. In general, though, with the exception of the double-register-vent (and low-C) model 430, the entire Leblanc line, including Noblet and Normandy instruments, consists of single-register-vent designs which, acoustically, are identical to the student Vito and play about the same, in my opinion.
5) I suggest a lesson or two from a symphony BASS clarinetist, as it really is quite a different instrument than the soprano clarinet and needs specialized techniques to play really well. I took clarinet lessons for several years myself (centuries ago) from a well-respected SOPRANO clarinetist, but he couldn't play a note of bass clarinet and frankly left me to my own devices on the lower instrument, to the point where I consider myself to be practically self-taught on bass clarinet.
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2013-12-02 20:57
I would be curious as to which model Yamaha synthetic bass you play - I purchased a YCL221II model several years ago when I started the "comeback" playing bass clarinet again. I had a hard time with the upper clarion range - especially from G to C above the staff. I know another player who bought the same model and had the exact same difficulty. Changing reeds and mouthpieces would only help marginally. I attribute part of the issue to the location of the register vent, which is fairly far away from the mouthpiece. I've played other single register bass clarinets (with a higher vent placement) that played much better in this range.
However, the real solution in my experience was to get a double-register instrument. The upper clarion issues were dramatically improved.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-12-02 21:44
I play the YCL-221, prior to the 221II. The issues that I predominately have are the the B and C above the break play stuffy and C above the staff is difficult because it seems so "airy." Hope that makes sense. And of course Bb is inherently stuffy but it is on every clarinet I've ever owned regardless of model or repair person. As I alluded to briefly, I'm currently playing a Clark Fobes Bossa Nova mouthpiece which has been very comfortable straight out of the box. I may experiment further with mouthpieces in the future though I'm relatively happy and should spend the effort practicing more than shopping :-). I'd really like it if the action on the bass were quicker and lighter. I've had both of my soprano clarinets professionally setup to a point that is much faster under the fingers but don't know if it can be done with the Yamaha bass. My soprano repairer only works on professional models and that leave me with only local options that I'm less comfortable with.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-02 23:30
re the action on a bass clarinet - for one, most leave the factory too hard sprung, here a good repair person can improve things drastically. Why your soprano repairer chooses to work only on professional instruments is beyond me - your Yamaha may lack prifessional features but not professional quality.
On the other hand, the bass clarinet keywork operates on significantly bigger masses - there we deal with weight and inertia which thwart "light quick action" to a certain degree. In a way, it's not unlike playing a fast trill on a Saxophone's lowermost notes...
My advice with your Yamaha would be - stick with it until you can cough up the money for a low C beast. You might listen around for what people have to say about Kessler's or Ridenour's "big" basses. They too aren't made of wood and are - as I understood - custom-tweaked and refined instruments from the far east. (haven't seen the instruments, but the sellers are reputable companies)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2013-12-03 11:31)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 11:28
Consider joining the Yahoo BC group http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/NewBassClarinetGroup/info. It's not very active, but they permit buy/sell offers on the page. New blood is welcome, and it has good people.
Join there and I'll tell you about my 60s Buffet, which is mechanically delicate but IMO plays better than the equivalent Selmers and the current Buffets.
Ken Shaw
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2013-12-03 11:38
Thanks Ken, I'm a member but decided to post the question here first. I remember Walter had a Buffet for sale that he sent out notice recently wanting someone in that group to buy. I didn't inquire because I can't afford one right now and I'm certain it was a Prestige. I'd have to sell a couple of clarinets first to buy a new bass. I'll throw the question out to the yahoo group today though as I'm starting to think about buying.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 12:28
If / when you do decide to buy a professional bass, I hope you'll keep the Yamaha and keep it in playing condition. It's a good backup. It's also useful for playing outdoors or in situations where security could be a problem. Even if you end up spending most of your practice time on a new-to-you pro bass, the fact that you've had enough time on the Yamaha to get familiar with it probably will mean you can re-acclimate to it quickly, if you needed to switch to it on short notice.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 14:16
Instead of looking at the 'which bass' question from the practical 'is it worth it' side of the issue; I suggest looking at it from another angle.
You are not trying to make a living playing the instrument; it is a hobby. If you can find a bass you like, answer 2 questions:
1. Is the price reasonable for me? A reasonable price is not necessarily the lowest possible price you can get; it is the price you (knowing your income and expenses) are willing to pay to get a particular instrument (or camera, or Model T Ford, or ...) at the time it is offered.
If the answer is 'yes', proceed to the next question.
2. Will my spouse be upset if I make the purchase? If the answer is 'yes', proceed at your own risk. If the answer is 'no', buy the instrument.
Fifteen years ago, I bought a 20 year old Selmer Model 30 owned by a retired music teacher who had acquired a new model. I probably paid more than it was worth, and then spent more getting it adjusted by a good technician, but it was affordable to me then and is still working well now.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 14:38
All that matters is how the horn plays. With a good mouthpiece, such as the ones Dave Spiegelthal mentioned, a plastic Vito will take you up to, though not over, the amateur/professional divide. Buying one used and getting it refurbished is a good way to go, since the Vito and the Bundy/Linton were built like tanks.
Leblanc did a great job with the single-register-key design, and, again, unless you want to make a specialty of it, or have the bucks to spend, don't worry about the double mechanism, which is fiddly and goes out of adjustment at the slightest bump.
For professional use, you need a low-C bass, but you won't find one used for an affordable price. The affordable used ones go to Eb, which is all you need for 99% of the parts.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2013-12-03 15:16)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 14:52
I'll disagree a bit with a couple of Ken's points (besides his misspelling of my last name which happens all the time):
(1) The Linton bass clarinets were made by Malerne, not by Selmer USA/Bundy. The Malerne-made instruments might play comparably to Bundys but are much less rugged.
(2) A well-designed and built double-register-vent mechanism, while admittedly more fragile and less reliable than a good single design such as Leblanc's, is hardly "fiddly" nor does it go "out of adjustment at the slightest bump".
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 15:18
David
Sorry about the misspelling (which I've fixed). I'm reasonably sure that Linton contras were made by Bundy, so I assumed the basses were the same. The contras I'm thinking of have a wide metal band at the top of the upper joint. Or have I lost too many brain cells (very possible)?
My Buffet bass, s/n 21448 (to Eb, from 1967) has the older style double mechanism and goes out easily. The late Jimmy Yan told me, "You'll be bringing this to me a lot." Nevertheless, I prefer it (for the tone) to the current Buffet models.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-12-03 16:01
No worries, Ken! I'd be surprised if I have even half my brain cells left :(
The Linton contras (not talking about the unique "saxophone-style" metal ones which were made by Orsi) may have been made by Bundy, sounds like they were from your description. But Linton basses (and altos) were most definitely Malerne stencils --- check previous threads on the vast multitude of brand names seen on Malerne-made alto and bass clarinets, it is staggering!
I've never been a fan of the sound of Buffet basses, so I've never owned one, so I'm not familiar with the ruggedness (or lack thereof?) of their mechanisms. I'm most familiar with the five or six versions of Kohlert basses from the 1920s to the 1960s, and the better models of those have been reasonably reliable and tantrum-free. I believe Selmer-Paris basses are similar in design so should be OK as well in terms of reliability. I totally agree that the single-vent Leblanc products have the sturdiest and most reliable register mechanisms, though, followed closely by Selmer-USA/Bundy/Buescher (all the same instrument).
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2013-12-03 21:48
I used both a Yamaha Bass synthetic and a rather vintage Selmer Bass. Both are good...I found the Yamaha to have more punch and projection while the Selmer is smoother and slightly quieter. Both are good.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-12-04 00:09
David -
If you come across a 1960s Buffet bass with PROFESSIONAL stamped on the upper joint and a double pad for the low F key, give it a try. Kalmen Opperman told me that Ronnie Reuben played one in Philadelphia when he didn't need the extended notes, and he collected them for his students. Mine whispers and ROARS.
And my mind did slip a cog. I meant the Selmer-USA/Bundy/Buescher.
Kal did extensive work on a Buescher Eb and a Vito BBb, turning them into the only pro-level contras I've ever played. Dennis Smylie plays them on the Opperman Clarinet Choir CDs. Of course he would sound amazing on a bass kazoo. Listen to him playing the Rock of Gibraltar under Richard Stoltzman at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP7-YOJhVuU.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-12-04 02:35
Some years back when the International ClarinetFest was held at the University of Maryland, I played in the adult (giant) clarinet choir (on EEb contra-alto) and sat next to Paul Sargeant of the British Clarinet Ensemble who played (incredibly well) on the most amazing BBb contrabass clarinet I've seen, a Selmer-Paris rosewood instrument with TWO additional register vents and associated mechanism to operate them! I had no idea a contrabass could play so high so easily and sound good at it.
AFAIK the Buffet "Professional" was actually a wood Malerne, but I might be wrong. If it has the rectangular r.h. trill keys (with rounded corners), plus the distinctive Malerne register key, then it is indeed a Malerne. I've played many Malernes (both wood and hard rubber versions) and while they always play well down low, their clarion and upper registers leave much to be desired -- and the metal used for the keywork is like spaghetti. I'd be very surprised if Ron Reuben played a Malerne product. I thought he played Selmers?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-12-04 12:19
I suppose you BC Pros are familiar with the Edmund Welles BC Quartet, but I just discovered them on YouTube doing Danse Macabre and was blown away......
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-12-04 15:36
@Ken: I think I'm mistaken about the older Buffet models -- There's an "Academy" model on The Infernal Auction Site right now, which is definitely a Malerne product, but the "Professional" model you mentioned is probably an in-house design (in which case I can believe Ron Reuben playing one). Apologies.
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2013-12-04 16:00
"I suppose you BC Pros are familiar with the Edmund Welles BC Quartet..."
I'm no pro, but I have followed them on Youtube for a while - great stuff they do.
You might also enjoy Sqwonk, which seems to be two of the guys from the quartet. I really like their playing of Black by Marc Mellits (I've played this, though not publicly), and the famous Bach toccata and fugue.
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