 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JerryForsyth
Date: 2013-08-20 11:54
I took up the clarinet three years ago for the pure joy of it. I have no goals to be a symphony player. Heck, I will be 66 in a few weeks. My goals in music are to have a fun hobby that helps stave off senility and gives me great pleasure. (I know, I know, but sex does not stave off senility.)
Anyway, I now want to add an alto sax to my fun. But I am an ignorant consumer. I wound up buying 3 clarinets before I found that the best one for me is a simple Buffet B10 with a quality mouthpiece and barrel. Best because it sounds fine and will go together easily in the rain forest that Georgia has become. I have an R13 that I never take out of the case because the tenons have been turned once and it still is too stiff to get apart after playing. So it just stays in the case.
I seek your advice on what sax to buy. I buy used stuff in excellent shape. I see a lot of Yamaha YAS 23's on Ebay for $350-$500. Is this a good choice or are there other horns that a recreational player should also explore?
Anybody want to trade an Alto Sax for an R13 in almost-unused condition? I will take it to my music store and have the keys polished for you. They have aged into that soft grey patina. The horn was made in 2010. I do not want a sax that is all pitted up in the finish or that needs work to make it play. I figure I can get around $1,000 for the R13 on Ebay so it would need to be a better sax than the YAS 23 that goes for half that price.
But mostly I want your advice on what horn to buy. Many of you may think I should buy a really cheap student horn but I want one that feels good, plays well, and offers some pride of ownership. (And can be had, with patience, used in great shape on Ebay or elsewhere. I do not want a dented-up horn.)
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-08-20 12:10
Don't pay before you pay, simple as. If possible try out a few at your local music shop and pick the one that sounds/plays best, sort out a sax teacher and ask them to check it out, get the shop to set it up as part of the deal. Definitely recommend getting a teacher for 4 or 5 lessons - a lot of clarinet technique translates to the sax, but you need help for a few things like embouchure. If you buy on ebay you pays yer money and takes yer chances
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Steve L
Date: 2013-08-20 12:12
Stephen Howard Woodwind has reviewed lots of saxophones of various standards to give you a start.
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/Alto_sax_reviews.htm
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Author: JerryForsyth
Date: 2013-08-20 13:06
I do not have access to a music store with a selection of saxophones that I could try out. I live in NW Georgia and there is just nothing here. Plus, I can get the same horn at 1/3 the price on Ebay. Of course there is a risk there but I have never had a problem. Luckily for me, musical instruments depreciate tremendously the minute you play the first note on them and I want to take advantage of that. I am currently watching Ebay and there are two horns there that are less than a year old with only tiny scratches that are selling for less than $450. I missed one a month ago that sold for $475 and had only been out if its case once. The music stores I have checked online want around $2,000 for this horn.
Economics demand that I not consider a new horn.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-20 13:14
You can't go wrong with Yamaha saxes - if anything isn't right with them (that isn't mega serious such as having the body tube bent) they are very easy instruments to work on. But as has already been said, always try before you buy. If buying used, expect to shell out for some minor work or a routine service if they haven't been serviced in over two years.
Playing wise, Yamahas are very reliable with tuning and intonation, but do remember you're playing a sax and not a clarinet, so don't firm up your embouchure when playing high notes otherwise you'll go very sharp up top. Keep a relaxed embouchure and also use plenty of support for the low notes as they will go up the 8ve if you don't have enough support.
I've got a YAS-62 (which is my third one), but my main alto is a YAS-875EX which is Yamaha's take on Selmer (and much better built!). Also had a YTS-62 but sold it after I bought a YTS-875 and still have my YSS-62 and YBS-62 as I'm mainly a bari player - I couldn't possibly part with my bari or soprano.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-08-21 12:21)
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2013-08-20 18:25
If you don't have access to a music store then ebay may be the only way to go, but you said that you would take your R13 to your local store to polish it up, so thought it could be an option. Music stores normally sell used saxes as well - I've just bought a secondhand Yamaha from a local store
Hope you find what you need
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: davyd
Date: 2013-08-20 23:44
This is probably a longshot, but: do you live reasonably near a university with a substantial music department? Maybe one of their students might have a student-model instrument that they'd like to sell in order to upgrade.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2013-08-21 05:07
Any modern Yamaha saxophone is an excellent choice for a first sax. They're incredibly consistent and for the most part have very consistent intonation. The YAS-23 is certainly very popular, and the model I would look at first. Many of my beginners start on that instrument.
I personally play on the YAS-82Z, though I previously played a Selmer SA80 Series II, and a Conn 6M prior to that.
Interestingly enough, Clark Fobes makes a Debut mpc. for saxes as well, and they work great!
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Author: William S
Date: 2013-08-21 09:21
I'm a big fan of Yamaha saxes, but not the 23. My alto is a new 62, and I've owned two 82Zs, an old tenor 62 - and my first sax was a YAS 23. Although I can be sentimental about my first sax, I happen to think that tone-wise the 23 is a foul, tinny-sounding device.
I played one for the first time in 30 years a couple of years ago as I was helping a friend's son choose an upgrade to his no-brand Chinese horn and I was shocked at how thin it sounded compared to other, cheaper Taiwanese horns, like Mauriat etc. The new Selmer US horns are amazingly good for the money.
Anyway, try before you buy - the 23 may work for you - but there's a lot of great stuff out there these days, not at all the same situation as when I took the sax up when the 23 was more or less the only sane choice for a beginner.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2013-08-21 15:08
Jerry - If you have never played saxophone, I would think your first stop would be to find a competent sax teacher who could check out whatever you find before the purchase in final. A few dollars spent up front might keep you from buying three saxes to find one good sax.
Also, most people will advise you to stay away from cheap Chinese saxophones, which often do not work very well. I know two good sax players (one is a retired Air Force musician) who bought such saxes and love them. It obviously is possible to find such an insturment if you know what to look for, which is another reason to get a sax person to help you with your purchase.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-08-21 16:08
DON'T buy a crap sax.
A crap sax will have crap mechanism that will bend and leave you with a leaker that won't play for you. This can actually happen in a few minutes of playing!
I'm thinking of a generation of Jupiter brand saxes that were commonly found in student rental 'fleets'. I had one, and it was so frustrating that I gave it up. NOW, I've heard that Jupiter saxes have become much more solid instruments, even acceptable; but I wouldn't risk the possibility that a random sample would not be a crap sax.
Everyone I know with a Yamaha sax is very satisfied with their instrument. About half of the "big band" players I know use Yamaha, and most of the others have pretty new (last 5-years) Selmers.
I have a Yamaha SE A clarinet that is simply wonderful.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-08-22 17:36
I second the advice about the alto sax Fobes Debut mouthpiece. It's a great mouthpiece at a very reasonable price.
I also second the advice about Yamaha altos. Very nice instruments!
Some of the old student Bundys are good instruments, and they're built strong to take a lot of abuse. I'm not sure about playing one in a professional situation, but if you want a decent instrument at a reasonable price to play for fun, this could be a good choice.
I have an old King 613 that I use mostly for teaching, and I got it for under $400. There a lot of used ones out there for sale at reasonable prices, and it's a very nice horn.
I recently had an opportunity to try a Selmer AS 32, and was quite impressed with it. It's an intermediate model in the $1700 to $1800 range, a joint effort between Henri Selmer Paris and Selmer USA.
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Author: JerryForsyth
Date: 2013-08-22 20:58
All,
Thanks for all of the info. I will take it all in and digest it. To answer some questions: the closest sax teacher is 100 miles away. I had the same problem with the clarinet. I signed up for lessons and my teacher showed up with no clarinet. Turns out she does not play the clarinet, she was just going to run me through an elementary school text on clarinet playing.
So I learned from lessons on the internet. And I have done perfectly well with that. I have a good, solid tone now and can play along with Goodman and Shaw on my favorites like Avalon, Begin the Beguin, Body and Soul, that sort of stuff. I have learned to sight-read but play mostly by ear as my fingers now know where each sound my mind wants resides on the horn. Nothing complicated or symphonic, but that is not why I wish to play anyway. My goal is to really enjoy playing and that goal is attained every day.
We do have a music store here in Cedartown, open Thursday-Saturday. That is where I would take the clarinet to have the keys buffed. They have to pack it up and send it to their mothership in Atlanta. But to buy a horn there means ordering out of a catalog. No try it first stuff.
Actually, by the way, learning from the internet has certain advantages. You can listen to many different teachers and none of them try to make you adopt THEIR style. I was able to develop my own ways and I enjoyed doing that.
I will get the Clark Fobes Mouthpiece. I have heard nothing but good about him and his work.
Thanks to all of you for your replies!
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-08-23 09:31
> Some of the old student Bundys are good instruments, and they're built strong to take a lot of abuse.
also Buescher Aristocrats which are early Bundies are stenciled from.
late 60s/early 70s post-Selmer buyout Aristos go for ~150$ on eBay, give or take. While they may not be on a par with golden era Bueschers but they sound good, and nickel plated keywork is really tough comparing to later Bundy II and Signets. Unfortunately body metal is thin, but at that point Aristocrates were relegated from pro horns to student model, so they cut the corners.
They came originally with Brilhart Ebolin Special MPC, which would be a good start MPC for clarinet doubler..
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-23 09:47
The biggest problem with Bundy II altos is the ergonomics - they're perhaps the most uncomfortable of saxes ever built and you need to be a contortionist to play them.
A similar model is a Conn 20M/Armstrong 3006A which again is a very utilitarian instrument but has much better ergonomics over the Bundy II. Key fit and build quality isn't paramount with these saxes (plenty of corners being cut when making these), so they are very rough around the edges but do play well if they've been well set up. I've just repadded a 20M and it plays surprisingly well, but it was a bit of a challenge to work on due to the nature of its build.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JerryForsyth
Date: 2013-08-23 10:00
Well. I am learning something new every day here. I just assumed that all saxophones had the same key layout. Sorta defies common sense that they would not all use the most efficient layout. But it is what it is I guess.
[ edited - GBK ]
Luckily, I live out in the boonies and am surrounded by wilderness. The only ones who can hear me learning are deer and turkey. (Deer, by the way, enjoy calm clarinet music. But they hate the altissimo register. My dogs do not care for the high notes, either, but they put up with it because I am the kibble-master. When I pick up my new trumpet, which I just started last week, everybody leaves. I am just using the mouthpiece at the moment and the kazoo-sound must have overtones that are irritating to animals.)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-08-23 16:48
> I just assumed that all saxophones had the same key layout. Sorta defies common sense that they would not all use the most efficient layout. But it is what it is I guess.
they sort of are nowdays, but older ones had really different layouts for left pinky cluster. That and some diff trill keys. For the rest it is pretty much the same.
After 3 years on clarinet my daughter started doubling on 80s Mark vi inspired Signet with modern ergos, then we got 60s Aristocrat for home so she doesn't have to drag it to school. Now she doesn't wanna use Signet b/c "it needs more air, and does not sound as good". That despite Buescher LH layout requires more pinky strength. Apparently not a prob for 65lbs pipsqueak.
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Author: JerryForsyth
Date: 2013-08-23 18:21
Well, I just won the bidding on a YAS-23. It will arrive in about ten days. I have an email off to Clark Fobes about a mouthpiece and I am really looking forward to this new endeavor.
You guys were a great help. I really do appreciate all of your advice. Now I need to listen to a lot of Alto Sax players on YouTube. So if you have favorites that you would suggest I might enjoy, please throw out some names for me to search.
I already love Stan Getz, but he played Tenor (as far as I know) as well as Cannonball Adderly and a player out of Raleigh, NC named Glen Ingram. I do not care for Coltraine (heresy, I know, but his superfast style leaves me cold).
Thanks again to all of you!
Jerry
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Author: Rezzie
Date: 2013-08-24 02:00
Jerry,
Glad to hear you have found a setup to start with. Clark is a very helpful guy - he sure has helped me in the past. Are you sure you can't find somebody up in Rome, or over in Cobb County to study with? There have to be a bunch of teachers up in the NW Atlanta burbs. I know they have a lot of good school bands up there, and somebody's doing some teaching. Best of luck with the hunt.
If you want to find some beautiful alto sounds, and you love the sound of Getz (who doesn't?) , try the coolness and elegance of Paul Desmond, the fire of Cannonball Adderley, and one of my own favorites as a player, the truly gifted Art Pepper. You Tube is a magical wonder, isn't it?
Keep having fun.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-08-24 12:00
Good one Jerry! Also listen to Phil Woods who's a Yamaha endorsee.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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