 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-03-12 13:02
Tried my new Rico Reserve medium facing mouthpiece tonight. On the plus side, fit and finish are excellent and I find that the tuning of my clarinet is better than with most other mouthpieces I've tried. Unfortunately, in the end I found that it is just not for me. It is more resistant than I am comfortable with. I've tried it in several different instruments from Buffet, Yamaha, B & H and Leblanc, and with reeds of different makes and stiffness, and for me it just can't compare with my old Selmer 85-115. Back to the endless search.
Tony F.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2013-03-12 14:27
FWIW, that was my impression as well: they are too resistant, but tune well. One of my better students reached the same conclusion.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-03-12 14:54
I'm currently using the X0 and agree that they are more resistant than other mouthpieces I've used with comparable facings, although I don't personally find the feeling of "push back" objectionable with a responsive reed. But I am curious, since the facing curve itself doesn't seem to account for the resistant feel, if any of our mouthpiece design experts has been able to figure out where the source of the resistance is.
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-03-13 00:23
I find that using a softer reed reduces the level of control without appreciably reducing resistance.
Tony F.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2013-03-13 00:31
Guess its not for you. At some point you may get tired of the search, but have fun searching. I'm definitely someone who likes to try a lot of different equipment. I think as I've gone on playing through the years, I've gotten a little tired of "the search". I stuck with the Rico reserve cause it pays well, is pretty consistent from mouthpiece to mouthpiece of the same facing, and is cheap.
Can I ask what size reed(s) you were trying on the medium tip opening?
I have the X0 (closed) and use a 3.5. It's a LITTLE soft but I feel very controllable. I tried a medium mouthpiece with a 3.5 and it just seemed to hard to play to me.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-03-13 07:42
Hi Alexi,
Normally I use 3.5's, and started with these on the Rico m/p. I'd bought 3-packs of 3's, 2.5's and 2's. None gave me good results. The reeds were Rico Royals and Vandoren Traditional. I also tried a few 4's from my junk box, a Legere 2.75 and a few 3.5's that I carved around to see if it made any real difference. The Vandoren 3's gave the best results, but at their best they weren't good enough. The Legere sounded good but squeaked no matter how I seated it.
I think you're right about the search, but I'm an incurable optimist.
Tony F.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2013-03-13 23:57
Well no one can fault you for not trying to find the right reed!!! Good luck on the search!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: gwie
Date: 2013-03-14 00:25
Interesting.
I tried the X0 and use a Rico Reserve 4.5 on it and it works and sounds great!
I usually play Vandoren V12 4.5 on Walter Grabner's K11.
G.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2013-03-16 15:12
Yep, I have a Rico Reserve X5 too. It's not too easy to bring out the round, clear sound. My originally wanted the Vandoren B40(which I tested before), but it was not available in the music shop at that time, and I badly needed a higher quality mouthpiece. So I went with the X5 instead.
Josh
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-03-16 15:29
Keep in mind that Rod Rubber material is typically more resistant than molded rubber. Most of the time, stepping down a half strength and reminding one-self to keep from using un-necessary jaw pressure will help find a comfortable resistance.
Simply changing mouthpieces (from a vandoren or zinner) without trying softer reeds with rod rubber will lead down a path of 1) too much resistance and worse yet 2) A feeling that rod rubber is just resistant and fuzzy\stuffy.
IMO, as with most any machine made mouthpiece, there are some things that the machine just can't do well. While they are consistent in facing from mouthpiece to mouthpiece (mostly), the thickness of tip and size rails is a bit too much for my taste. This is probably due to the ability of the machines to produce something that will be consistent (thinner rails would be more difficult and expensive to produce, since the tolerances would be tight).
I have done some customizations and some complete refacings of these mouthpieces (both for others as well as the several that I have). Thinning out the tip rail goes a LONG way at removing the slight extra resistance at the tip. To put it in perspective, a thick tip rail is a bit like driving your car with the parking break on.
Occasionally, the facings come off with a slight imbalance here or there, but is easily fixed.
I think that we should all keep in mind that there are 4 or 5 variables that make these mouthpieces different from Vandorens\Zinners etc. that we SHOULD NOT get hung up on their tip opening as being a direct comparison factor.
FWIW: My favorite was the closest tip, the XO, although this didn't come as a surprise since I prefer a close tip for a number of reasons. The X5 and X10 would have to have a longer facing as well as thinner rails for them to feel workable to me.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-03-18 11:21
"I have done some customizations and some complete refacings of these mouthpieces (both for others as well as the several that I have). Thinning out the tip rail goes a LONG way at removing the slight extra resistance at the tip. To put it in perspective, a thick tip rail is a bit like driving your car with the parking break on."
I tried thinning the tip rail, as per the above post, and it improved the feel of the mouthpiece considerably. It is now less resistant, and I find that with a slightly harder reed than I used previously it now plays well. I still prefer my old Selmer 85/115, but the modified Rico Reserve would be a good backup.
Tony F.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2013-03-19 01:35
"Keep in mind that Rod Rubber material is typically more resistant than molded rubber."
Well, you said this twice.  But can you explain why it should be true?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2013-03-20 17:51
In contrast to most of the above writers, I have not found the Rico Reserve mouthpiece to be particularly resistant. I am using the X0 with 3.5 Rigotti or Rico Grand Concert Select (thick blank) reeds. So from my perspective, the feeling of "resistance" is not universal.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-03-20 22:35
Rod Rubber is typically more resistant due to the way it is formed and cured compared to molded blanks. Naturally, not all rod rubber is created equal (even amongst Henri Chedevilles of the 20's and 30's, where it varied a good bit).
The simplest way I can think to describe it is thinking about a greenline instrument shattering while a non-greenline will crack or chip. I'm sure there's a better analogy, but that's what came to my mind at the moment.
I'll see what I can do to track down a more detailed account for why this is the case.
One "sure-fire" reason "why it should be true" is experience. I've played exclusively rod rubber mouthpieces for the past four years, and tried, refaced, or heard many chedevilles and chicago kaspars that were all rod rubber mouthpieces. Given the same facings and using the same reed, or even less resistant facings, the rod rubber mouthpieces played with greater resistance. Without going into too much boring detail, it is possible with experience to tell when a mouthpiece material is causing a particular issue. Some materials are dull, some are wild, some are too hard (glass mouthpieces, for example).
All these characteristics are relative, of course. If someone is coming from a mouthpiece with a very large tip opening and short facing, or even a medium tip\medium long facing, the Rico XO will feel less resistant.
Part of the resistance of the Rico comes from a somewhat conservative\traditional bore design. It isn't a Vandoren 13 series or zinner that has made accommodations to "play at 440". They generally play higher in pitch than these other mouthpieces and also have much more point and ring in the sound.
As a side note (although I suppose it's part of my main point), good quality rod rubber is typically more resistant than molded but this should not be seen as a disadvantage or a fault.
Stepping down a half strength, or finding a different brand\cut of reeds to accomidate for this resistance usually have some very beneficial results. Assuming the rod rubber is good material, the sound will be much more vibrant, resonant, focused, and brilliant. Much of the time, reeds that sounded "too bright" or were too wild on a different mouthpiece, will allow a rod rubber mouthpiece to vibrate to its fullest without the edge and shrill sound that will arise more obviously in molded rubber mouthpieces.
BTW: Being able to play a lighter reed AND have added vibrancy, focus, clarity, resonance, etc. will allow you to use less jaw pressure and overall "bite". Working less to get more... one of the rare times when this is true!
Brad Behn has plentiful amounts of information on his website, www.behnmouthpieces.com He has done incredible things in mouthpiece design and material that are unparalleled on the market. His vintage and signature collection mouthpieces all have unique character and color in each design, but all have a common ground of vibrancy, resonance, and allow each player to find something that suits their voice (occasionally a voice they didn't know they could have!).
As to the topic of Rico: Brad Behn has said on this bboard that Rico has done a great thing, making an affordable (vandoren comparable) mouthpiece made out of rod rubber with solid designs. I believe he said everyone should find a model they like and buy one......and he's a mouthpiece maker!
As I said before, all materials are different and rod rubber is no exception. The tolerances for creating quality acoustic grade rod rubber for mouthpieces are EXTREMELY tight. Production of high grade rubber requires a lot of R & D, trial and error, machining, and adjustment. Even proper testing of the end result material (not clarinetists testing mouthpieces, but scientists testing consistency and quality of material) is also crucial.
Other threads have been written about Brad Behn's work, and people can feel free to do a search and find responses to the scariest part of his mouthpieces to most people (Price). It should be apparent by now that no step in the process can be overlooked, and none are free. The result speaks for itself...in clarinet sound anyway.
DISCLAIMER: I do help Brad Behn at conferences working at his table, but am by no means an employee.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2013-03-20 23:17
(Disclaimer - I sell Chedeville(R) mouthpieces and barrels CNC machined from my reproduction of Chedeville rod rubber)
Nathan, thank you for your explanation and experience with rod rubber mouthpieces which I feel brings a more practical explanation of perhaps why some rod rubber mouthpieces play the way they do.
All in all though, I feel that the mouthpiece architecture trumps material but that the material may be an important part of the sonority of the sound as you have described. There are so many interactive variables about architecture that each company, maker, or refacer deal with that it is difficult to compare one product with another. In my opinion Rico went with a very pseudo-classical but "safe" approach in their design and makers such a Brad Behn, I, and others have modeled more directly and possibly made improvements on classical design.
You are correct that making an acoustical rubber simulating the good Chedeville rod rubber from the 30's and early 40's takes a lot of expense, R & D, and some serious science to produce. Rico does not make their own rod rubber like Brad and I do and any commercially available rod rubber IME is not similar to the acoustical characteristics of the old Chedeville rubber. Of course it would not be economically feasible to produce mid-level mouthpieces out of a specialty rubber as Rico is now doing.
I agree with Brad that Rico has made a great contribution to the mouthpiece making world by mass producing a CNC machined completed mouthpiece. There will always be a place for the mouthpiece maker artisan however to personalize a mouthpiece for different players with different needs and desires.
L. Omar Henderson
www.ChedevilleMP.com
www.DoctorsProd.com
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2013-06-07 23:46
Contrary to my previous post, I finally decided that the mouthpiece indeed was too resistant. I sent it to Brad Behn who thinned the tip rail and did some other minor "tweaking", which seems to have taken out the little "hesitation" I was experiencing and this makes the playing more "fluid". Definitely made a difference.
(As others put it, no relationship to Brad Behn, other than being another satisfied customer.)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-06-08 01:57
I haven't tried a Rico Reserve mouthpiece yet and probably will not. Unlike many players, I strongly prefer a mouthpiece that is slightly open and has low resistance. For example, I find a Selmer HS* or B* to be unplayable, but I like the HS** and the Vandoren 5RV Lyre.
When I went to Kalmen Opperman for a mouthpiece, he immediately recognized what worked best for me. I own several of his mouthpieces (for which he used to charge only $35), and on each of them he made the rails and tip narrow, particularly at the intersection of the rails and the tip. It takes special care to make sure the reed tip is shaped precisely and put on so it doesn't leak at the corners. The reward is easy production of many good tones, each lively and beautiful.
It takes precise control to play this way. I can't just lean in against the resistance (which is, for example, Tom Ridenour's philosophy for both mouthpieces and clarinets). For me, Tom's work feels numb. You blow in here and it comes out there, with no choice at either end.
I know I'm extreme, but it's what works for me.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2013-06-08 11:43
Ken,
I am a doubler and your suggestion of the HS** and the 5RVL meshes well with my needs. I played a Portnoy B2 for many years and most recently used a B45 (complete with a little chip on the tip that I got on a junk clarinet) with good results.
However, I got a Rico X10 several months ago and my first impressions were too resistant. I put it away for a couple of months and then one day while messing around with reeds gave it another try using Rico Reserve 3.5+ reeds. It was amazing.
I tried the X10 on a couple of shows and band concerts and most recently picked up a spare (which plays pretty much like my original). I have always thought the CNC approach should be able to provide a reasonable MP in a repetitive way. I think it has in my case.
But then, I am not a symphony quality player but as a a semi-pro, the Rico Reserve is probably the best MP I have acquired in recent years. And the price was in my range (I'd be ill if I ever spent $300+ for a MP for any of my clarinets or saxes).
HRL
Post Edited (2013-06-08 11:49)
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-21 05:49
All do respect-- I think with the RR mpc the resistance issue is the baffle and not the wonderful bar hard rubber.
I tried them (all three models) and yes they are extremely well made and I agree they have the "resistance"IMHO -- as encountered in the true vintage Chedeville mpcs -- dark covered etc
The concave low baffle creates the "resistance" that depending on your personal preference is an asset or a liability.
Rico needs to apply their superb production technology to a great Kaspar next time.
When they do-- send one to me please.
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Author: MGT91123
Date: 2014-01-21 20:02
I recently picked up an X5 and love it with my La Voz reeds at medium strength, haven't tried my junk reeds with it yet, but that's the next thing on my list. Intonation is clear and I have a much easier time with 3rd register higher notes. My lower register sounds deeper and more mysterious, which was totally what I was going for. Now I stand up and speak out against all the violins in orchestra.
Overall, great MP.
MG
Buffet E-11
Buffet Moening Barrel, 65 mm, Backun Protege 65mm
Vadoren BD5 Mouthpiece
Vandoren M/O series gold Lig.
Gonzala's FOF Reeds 2.5
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-22 03:26
"Keep in mind that Rod Rubber material is typically more resistant than molded rubber."... I don't believe this for a minute.
Bob Draznik
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