 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinetero
Date: 2012-08-16 03:47
Hi,
I'm writing this to get some advice from professional players out there. During the last few days I have been thinking about quitting the clarinet. This is my situation: I'm a performance mayor in my junior year at college and I'm a fairly advanced player in my studio which includes some graduate students. Famous players that had come and heard me in masterclasses etc. thinks that I have a good sound, nice technique (which still needs some work, but isn't bad), and that I play passionately; both of the teachers I had during these years think the same. But not even that has helped me achieve better results in the auditions for ensembles at my university. For three years I have auditioned for the Symphony Orchestra and I have not been accepted; and in the wind ensemble I have not been successful either, always with Alto and Bass parts. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying because I love both Alto and Bass clarinets, but I think that I can do the work in other parts as well.
Please be honest and don't be rude. Thanks!!!
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-08-16 04:31
(I'm just a community player, not a pro by any means, so feel free to disregard)
Have you asked whoever runs the auditions why you didn't get in? If you can get some feedback, that may give you some direction on what they're looking for. Is there a seniority issue? I didn't have that problem in college, but it was rampant in the high school band I played in (seating was done by grade and it was very rarely any different). How many players does each ensemble carry vs. how many people audition for spots? Do your auditions go as well as you expect?
Our of curiosity, where do you go to school? What are your aspirations after graduation, both clarinet and non-clarinet? Do you enjoy being a music major, or playing in general? If you switch majors, do you know what you might like to pursue instead?
I'm not trying to be annoying with all the questions, I'm just trying to figure out where you are coming from.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-08-16 05:19
Whats going on at your auditions? During the audition what takes place, such as scales, etudes, solo's, and probably the most demanding pieces are sight reading? Are you weak with any of these? How are your nerves at these auditions?
I don't , actually all of us, don't know how you play. Can you post something or maybe guide us to your website? It doesn't have to be something demanding, but an etude, a few scales, whatever you are comfortable with. Maybe think of this as an audition.
Leave out the Alto clarinet, but use the bass clarinet and the regular clarinet.
There are always places for musicians to find a gig. Perhaps not a sym player like the NY Phil. You can teach, join the military service, whatever you want to do.
So kindly post something so us readers can help you out without you leaving school. Get the degree, minor in another subject if you want to. Then you have your major and minor degrees.
Looking forward to hearing you play. and you don't need anything fancy such as a recording studio. An Ipod may work well for now and don't be shy. Give us your best.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-08-16 06:25
Simple: Ask. That's what your teachers/directors are there for.
Being demoted to low clarinet isn't always an insult, dude. It takes a lot to play those instruments well. It could be that your director thinks you play the low clarinets so well that he/she wants you there all the time. Best thing you can do is just talk to him/her about it.
Even though you are unhappy with your part assignments, I would rethink this a little. Since you are a performance major, I presume you want to play in an orchestra someday. You should understand that not every orchestra job is for the principal clarinet position. There is also the 2nd/utility clarinetist position. Getting good experience in other clarinets will make you more qualified for more jobs. Is that really a bad thing?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-08-16 11:15
Do the graduate students in the clarinet studio play in the orchestra?
You might be caught up in the situation of too many fine clarinet players for too few orchestra slots.
I went to a large university, and there were excellent clarinet players everywhere. Some of the undergrads were outstanding, but very few ever made it into the orchestra. Those positions almost always went to the graduate students.
I did have the chance to play in an orchestra one year when the department created a "second string" (pardon the pun) orchestra. The winds were quite good, but the strings were another story. It was a good experience, but one year in that group was enough.
The others have given you good advice. I particularly agree with Beth's thoughts about the lower clarinets. You might also want to try the E-flat.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-08-16 12:24
Quitting is not what you do out of frustration but what you do when you no longer want to play the clarinet.........period.
I'd suggest LISTENING, really listening to yourself (not recording....just paying attention when you play). This is the ultimate feedback.
Also, try something completely different in terms of how you practice. If you use a metronome and tuner all the time, try a few days without (or vice versa). Use different method books, concentrate on arpeggios..... anything to break the routine.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-08-16 13:28
Just because you're not accepted in the orchestra and wind band does not mean you should think otherwise on the clarinet. We hit obstacles sometimes that seem to pull us down, but in reality it really gets us to improve. My suggestion is not to quit because of those reasons, but play because you love the clarinet. And by that unwavering fire for making music, it will take you very far.
All the best!
Btw, I'm not professional. I'm a student too haha.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-16 14:41
It sounds like you have real talent and because you have a good tone and play with passion I would imagine that the world would be a less good place if you did quit. Many fine artists ignored the masses and went on to do great things. Don't quit, keep being a passionate player. As you grow older, you'll realize that art will keep you vital apart from any acceptance by a few experts.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2012-08-16 16:08
i would suggest yes, quitting sounds like a valid option for the following reasons:
1) You already are not top of your school and if you want a job in an orchestra it is a fair statement in my eyes that you should be at the least the best in your class. You are not.
2) being put on bass and particularly alto is an insult, from audition panels. When do you ever see the best players on alto?
3) Nice words fron visiting teachers mean very little, results speak. When did you last see a visiting teacher tell someone to quit?
4) You are already thinking about it, time is up. I
f in your heart of hearts all you want to do is play you would not be asking this question.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2012-08-16 16:32
Once upon a time, long long ago, people played and sang for enjoyment instead of to compete with others or to make a living at it.
If you're so stuck on competing and making money from your playing that you're making yourself miserable because of your "shortcomings," by all means quit. Life is too short to waste it in agony.
However, if you can enjoy playing without insisting that you play flawlessly (or even well), and you can get something out of playing without needing to compare yourself to others and without needing other people's endorsement, then keep on playing!
Good luck with your struggle.
B.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-08-16 19:15
I think when you frame the question the way you have here, you invite two kinds of replies: (a) don't give up but try to zero in on your shortcomings, which can be remedied with hard work, or (b) quit because it's a competitive profession and unless you're the second coming of (fill in a "great" name), you'll never make it.
The fact is that to make at least part of your living from performing as a musician, you don't have to be an unmatched phenomenon on the clarinet. Many of us play for income as well as for enjoyment - the two don't need to be mutually exclusive - without ever having had a prayer or competing for a principal position in a first tier international orchestra or even a really excellent regional one. Work for good local performers ebbs and flows with the economy, so you need a steady hedge like teaching or even something completely non-musical to provide a floor income while wait for the proverbial phone (with a contractor at the other end of the line) to ring. I know players who work as bakers, calligraphers, radio announcers, attorneys, doctors. Many of them are also excellent musicians and perform steadily. It doesn't matter all that much if you aren't the best in your college. What matters more is how you play irrespective of the others. If you play musically, with good sound, technical fluency and ensemble skills, you can find somewhere to play after graduation (someone else suggested military bands - not a bad idea if you're willing to deal with military attitudes).
Principal clarinet in the NY Phil, London Symphony, Berlin Philharmonic, etc., aren't the only positions from which you can make beautiful music that can positively affect the lives of many, many people for whom you perform over a lifetime. Teaching, if you have the personality for it, can increase the number of people whose lives you touch even more.
Quit if music itself or the thought of making it below the level of a top orchestra is intolerable to you. Otherwise, become the best you can and see where it leads you.
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-08-16 19:20
kdk wrote:
> someone else suggested
> military bands - not a bad idea if you're willing to deal with
> military attitudes
Competition for military bands today is the equal of pretty much any good regional band or orchestra and for premier bands much higher.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-08-16 19:58
After an eight year professional career in respectable ballet companies as a principal, soloist and originally a corp dancer, I had to quit. The injuries kept coming and I kept the faith until I fractured a vertebrae and my decision was made for me. It's now 30 years later and I still resent the fact that fate forced me out of the thing I love most. I swear I would have continued if no one paid me and I had to do it for free under a bridge for homeless people. To think that someone would quit just because they can't make top tier is un-musical, un-artistic and un-soulfull. Sure you can probably make more money in medical technology or selling Lexus cars, but if you're any kind of artist you'll hate yourself forever if you do that and abandon music completely. I make myself feel better even though I'm now a Dade County Officer, by supporting my wife's art career. Whether she makes it or not, I feel better knowing at least one of us is sticking it out. BTW, she's getting her first solo show in Manhattan early next year, but if we had to pay for studio space for twenty years and only broke even I'd still consider that the world is a better place. There is no peace without being true to ourselves.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-16 20:02
Not everyone is an Einstein. Does that mean only he should do physics? You are getting the degree to give your art to people, right? There are many ways to do that. You can teach privately. You may be the teacher of the next Marcellus. You can do it by forming ensembles. Keep kids off the street. You can write clarinet music. If you have the temperament and the training and the talent, you might become a professional player, but road tours and marriage sometimes don't mix. You might become a high school band director or even a college teacher. The point is that you are to give what you have. If you really love to play the clarinet, then play the clarinet, whether it pays or not. I have degrees in both the arts and the sciences and even with a doctorate in clarinet performance, I have no desire to play in a professional orchestra day-in-and-day-out. I would love to play in a professional ensemble, but not if that is how I had to make a living. I love to play, so it doesn't matter where I do it as long as everyone in the ensemble can play the music properly.
There is a difference between a job and a vocation. If playing the clarinet is really your calling in life, the you can't not play. You may have to take other jobs to pay the rent, but playing is something you must do. Given the sorry state of regional orchestras these days, the odds of almost anyone finding work is slim. Be creative. Do what you love. Leave the rest in God's hands.
Red Chair wrote:
"2) being put on bass and particularly alto is an insult, from audition panels. When do you ever see the best players on alto?"
Well, I was principle clarinetist for the Ohio State University Concert Band for a time when I was a graduate musicologist and myself and two other now famous clarinetists who were at OSU at the time essentially tied in our Wind Ensemble auditions. Do you know what I did for most of my graduate clarinet studies? I played bass and contra-alto clarinet. Many really fine players specialized in bass clarinet (I played whatever part they needed). Sometimes, really good players are assigned the parts because they need good players there.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-16 21:43
Anthony,
Let's be honest: none of us truly know your current situation or level. You may be studying at a highly acclaimed conservatory or a low-level state school... in the grand scheme of things I suppose it really doesn't matter. Fine musicians can be found at less-lauded institutions just as easily as egotistical-charlatans can be exposed at acclaimed universities. Names matter little in some settings...
Even the moniker "performance-major" is empty; I know a few former performance majors, wearing finely-tailored suits, driving to an office on a daily basis. They perhaps are more sharply-dressed, driving 'chice' cars that many swoon over, enjoying their 3-martini lunches more so than other similarly titled former performance majors. Or perhaps they are on par with the lifestyle of "top-tier" clarinetists that walk on a path of rose petals constantly tossed before them by insecure disciples... Let's forget about bestowed titles and monikers for the time being as well to get to the heart of matters...
You come here asking whether you should quit or not based on abstract "data" that you have offered.... expecting honest replies that really can't offer you more than "Quit because you obviously suck" from an abrasive poster, or "Embrace what skills you have and strive to the best level that you can achieve as you NEED to play" from an idealizing contributor, is a crap-shoot. I suppose I have fallen more-so into the abrasive category in my past postings; but I am also cognizant of reality and the impetus behind the more utopian "Let's all hold hands and skip through the poppy field; loving each other as we love ourselves." Most of the real-world resides between these two extremes.
Asking us if you should quit is a bit of a cop-out. Decide what you wish to accomplish with your life, look in the mirror without any smoke and decide for yourself. We don't know spit about you, your level, your situation, or where you want to end up. Accept whatever lifestyle that may come with your ultimate decision. We can't decide anything for you. ...and leaving matters in God's hands is a tenuous platform to balance on at best.
If the local orchestra will be your ultimate achievement, then be equipped to accept it without remorse if it is your truth; otherwise be honest now and make your choices.
Don't accept teaching as a last resort, or a merely supplemental income to live from:
"What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation?" -Cicero
I don't have children, but I sure as shit wouldn't want a teacher with a less idealized goal saying a word to my kids.
As others, I wish you well on your future path and current choices.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-08-17 01:24)
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-16 23:07
Buster,
Not to get side-tracked, but my statement to do what he loves and leave the REST in God's hand was not a pie-in-the sky sentiment. It is not a tenuous platform on which to balance. I presupposed in making that statement that Clarinetero has already done his part in the discernment process. One makes the best decision with the information at hand, but one must stay open to a better understanding should it come along. Life is basically a risk no matter which side of the bed one gets up on. One does what one can, but one must also realize that life is not totally within anyone's control. He will have to make and live with his decision but regret is a powerful force and sometimes we have to wait awhile longer to see if things really are as they seem to be. He is only a junior, after all. Richard Stolzman was not the best player at OSU, but he really developed after he went to graduate school at Yale.
You are correct, however, in saying that we know next to nothing about him and giving advice under those circumstances is dangerous under the best of circumstances, but seeking advice from the clarinet community might help him to see more sides of the problem. I don't think it can hurt as long as he realizes that it must be his decision, in the end.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-16 23:20
Donald,
Aside from stating that I presumed I addressed all those points you most recently illustrated, I would merely say that my name is Jason as I post it rather than Buster like some disobedient pet. (You may also call me 1066 if you know why I guess)
But offering discourse as an aside to make the O.P. lose track of what is being stated should be taken into account more by the author than it seems to currently stand...
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-08-17 01:56)
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2012-08-17 05:06
Try to get feedback from the panel. I second to those who post with regards that the upper years tend to get more playing than those in the lower years. Its a natural cycle that seem to happen everywhere. When you're in the upper years, you'll probably notice that it what you're describing now will be happening to your juniors.
Teachers words don't mean much actually (at least in my opinion). They give a lot of encouragement which is good but you should know what is your level in college and in the outside world. What is lacking, what you possess etc... I was lucky that my teacher was one who said everything that I didn't want to hear.
It is not easy to reach the top or even get a position in an Orchestra be is a 2nd player with Aux duties or Principal position. They are as difficult as the other. Hell, to even pass the initial CV stage is already tough enough. I know of players who had to go through 20+ auditions in order to secure a TRIAL rank-file position while some just had 1 audition!
Whether you can reach there or not depends on yourself and the rest depends on Luck. I heard players whom are equally fantastic (or even better) as those in sitting in the Orch but they don't have luck...
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-17 12:00
Apologies, Jason. The blue author designator said Buster and having been on the Internet from before the invention of browsers, I responded to the handle instead of the person.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2012-08-17 12:29
Just to give my pennyworth here - I see myself as an outsider, as I haven't played for very long, but many of the professional musicians that I have come across seem to lead very difficult lives - endlessly on the road, going from gig to gig, wondering when the next phone call offering them something will come. Their home lives seem non-existent, their long term relationships rocky. This may be fine when you are young, but the years creep up quickly. If I were starting all over again, I would go for a career outside music but which allowed me to play (compose/conduct) as much as possible.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2012-08-17 16:37
You're not giving us a lot of facts to go on, but let me share this thought with you: You'll KNOW when you've done all you can, and that's when you'll be most satisfied with your decision.
While in college, don't waste time stewing on your status. If you suck, it would do no good to be at the top of your class. If you're great, then don't worry about being below that. But be realistic about your prospects and thoroughly research your options.
While you're in college, don't blow off the importance of theory and ear training, and of education/pedagogy subjects. You need well-rounded skills to make a living these days, and that takes work, too. Do you have the desire and curiosity to fulfull yourself as a musician, or do you just want the status of being a professional clarinetist? THAT question may be the one that makes your decision.
Allen Cole
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2012-08-17 17:18
My answer to this question would be this: If you want only to be the "best" clarinet player on earth, in your school, in your town...wherever, it might be best to quit. Chances of success when your goal is that subjective are very small. But, if you want to be the best clarinet player you can possibly be, have fun (yes, music really can be fun), and be around people who are mostly really nice, keep playing.
And don't read that comment above from red chair. I think something happened to his corn flakes the morning he wrote that. And one more thing, playing the non-soprano/Bb horns are fun (yes, there's that word again). Alto clarinet rules.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-08-17 18:28
>> And don't read that comment above from red chair. I think something happened to his corn flakes the morning he wrote that. >>
I strongly suspect Red Chair of being a teacher or a good parent who's playing Devil's Advocate. Yeah, it's bad advice, but I'll bet s/he hopes it will lead the recipient to understand why it's bad advice and resist it.
>>And one more thing, playing the non-soprano/Bb horns are fun (yes, there's that word again). Alto clarinet rules. >>
It rules a very small kingdom, but ... yup!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Clarinetero
Date: 2012-08-18 01:38
To Many Comments To Actually Answer All Of Them!!!! But I will answer some:
Bob: Well, I recognize that I should have provided more information of my playing, perhaps a video. I will do that soon
Bethmil: I don't consider to play the low clarinets an insult, I really love them. What I'm saying is that I feel that I could do a good work on the soprano parts as well. But again, I know the reason I'm always playing them is because the Band conductor loves how I play them.
Red Chair: I admit that your comment is the one I liked the most. This is not an answer, but more of an story. When I started to study the clarinet after finishing another bachelor degree the best player of the whole study was playing bass and alto. But what really shocked me when I found out that she played the Alto half her bachelor and Bass the other half. She never played soprano on the wind ensemble and never was accepted to be in the orchestra either. Now she is finishing her Master's and have some offerings for a Doctorate. I'm not saying that this is my case, I just wanted you to know that really good players are assigned alto and bass parts. Thanks again for your comment it really got me thinking.
bmcgar: Thanks!!! You really got me thinking as well!!!
Jason: I know that I should have given a better a idea of my playing. Thanks for your excellent advice!!!
To the rest of you thanks for many wise words. I will follow the advice from everybody and go on.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-08-19 02:08
Here's some more advice in the form of my story for you to consider (despite the fact you've already come to some type of decision).
I was frequently the "best" clarinetist in any given setting. Until I got to conservatory, as a performance major, and then I was pretty damn good (not "best" because I was younger).
After a couple of lazy years of not practicing much because I only worked as much as I needed to to get by, there was a younger student at this conservatory who had already "beaten" me and a few other students there at a national audition for a youth orchestra. He arrived when I was a junior, and even when I was a senior, I got some "choice" parts because I had the seniority. Our school was very considerate of such things (or maybe that was just our prof). We as clarinetists also were considerate of such things. If we knew one of the two main orchestras would be performing "important" clarinet works and that someone else in the studio would benefit from being on principal, we'd offer to be in the other orchestra...
When I got to grad school for my master's, things were considerably different. It was much more "meanly" competitive rather than "supportive" competitive. Other clarinetists walking past me in the hallway would look at me as if I were going to "steal" their "secrets." Luckily this was only a year-long master's program. I was in and out in a flash then decided to quit because I knew at that point I didn't have it in me to pursue an orchestral career.
I began a master's in historical musicology and only played at chamber music parties. After I decided to drop out of that degree program (3 years later), I knew I needed to play again. I also knew I _couldn't_ play classical again due to my stress levels and perfectionist tendencies. I was fortunate enough to find an amateur East European band where I discovered Balkan clarinet playing.
It's been nearly 20 years since that happened. I'm in a professional Balkan band and have studied folk music in depth. Ultimately the clarinet wouldn't let me quit. I knew I needed to keep playing. About 4 years after joining the amateur group I began teaching private lessons (classical) at a local music store. I soon realized that I needed to teach too.
Ultimately, your life will unfold as you experience new things. These may be musical, they may be personal, they may be academic. All you can do while they're happening is absorb them and see what they "tell" you to do!
Always be prepared to get thrown a curve ball. Don't make decisions without careful consideration and soul searching. Be ready to end up doing something you never expected!
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-19 08:55
Clarinetero, do you think you are passionate to the point where you push too hard and too far in your performance? Sometimes that can detract a little and give the impression that you are not in complete command or may not always be consistent. That might sound very hard but when I was younger I was guilty of 'overcooking the goose' in many areas. I think there needs to be a balance where you are communicating/sharing the music to/with the audience, like an expert guide in a museum, allowing them to experience the delights of the music without telling them exactly what they should like and how it must be.
Also with any team there needs to be a balance of talents and a blending which adds to the overall performance. Are you able to do this? Sometimes it is a case that the 'fit' isn't right in that particular instance. There may be other reasons, but Sabine Meyer was given a really hard time for allegedly not being able to blend in with the orchestra. I don't hear that when she plays but the point is no-one can accuse her of not being an amazing solo player.
The other thing is, it might be worth having a 'plan B' which may take the pressure off you and you may actually play better. You may decide to take the 'plan B' route and actually prefer it. There is no law which says that you have to quit playing if this happens. Alternatively it may help you relax and help you to develop the qualities the selectors are looking for. ;-)
Post Edited (2012-08-19 11:27)
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-08-19 21:19
I think you should talk to people who know you about this.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-08-20 03:18
Glad my story helped....The other things I tell people are these:
1. The clarinet wouldn't let me quit.
2. I am a Clarinet Evangelist who spreads the word about what's cool, great, fun, different, and what all! I love teaching privately and tell my students that they need to be able to play all different kinds of music...
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