 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetfan97
Date: 2012-08-04 07:27
How do I get my high notes to sound better? When I play them fast in a chromatic scale they sound fine, but when I play them slow in some music, I don't think they sound good.
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-08-04 07:33
I think you can search for answers using the 'search' feature. Also, long tones help.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-08-04 15:26
There is no easy answer but here are a few things you can think about. A lot has to do with the way you voice. When you play fast in a scale you're probably keeping the air presure more equal, not changiing your embouchure as much or at all and you're probably keeping your throat opened, not tightening as much and then there's always you tongue position. When you play slow, especially beginning on a high note there's a tendency to tighten your throat and raise your tongue too high sometimes tightening your embouchure and not keeping your air support equal and steady. So I suggest you really concentrate on how all these things are when you play the chromatic scale and then try to "copy" how you acheived a better tone. It can take a lot of concentration to analyze what you're doing right and what your doing wrong so be patient and think. Of course there's always the reed being to hard or soft or the mouthpiece not being the best one for you. Try the first sugestions first before changing reeds or moutpiece. And yes, practice slowly up there and listen and feel.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: William
Date: 2012-08-04 16:06
EP offers good advice. I would add, play them in tune. Too often, higher notes tend to either go extremely sharp do to the issues EP mentioned or are quite flat do to embouchure or reed weakness. "In tune" always sounds better. Use a tuner and LISTEN.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-08-04 17:35
The most productive approach to solving your high note problem(s) would be to arrange a couple of lessons with a knowledgeable clarinet teacher. It needn't be a long-term relationship. The problem, at least as you've described it here, is so broad and the number of possible solutions is so great that you can easily go around in circles trying each suggestion offered here. It may be that some combination of changes is needed and, unless you hit the right one accidentally, it could be a very frustrating process.There's nothing like a teacher listening to you in person to expedite diagnosing problems and narrowing the range of solutions that might help.
Can you be any more specific about what's wrong with your upper register? What do you mean when you write "I don't think they sound good?"
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-08-04 17:56
What ed palanker said was spot in. I'd like to add that for me, if i have a leap up to that note or have to start it at a soft volume, i will half hole LH index finger. In esence, i will slide the index finger to a halfhole position during a leap and then slide it completely off as i get louder. If i want to the note to "pop", i'll lift off without halfholing. Has worked for me so far.
But ed's advice is paramount. Steady airstream, dont constrict throat, don't bite embouchure. The halfholing just kinda helps me a LITTLE bit more.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-08-05 02:44
I'm glad this has come up. Let me ask the same question, but at the opposite end of the spectrum: Say a student has a great tone and great voicing going slow. But, playing fast passages causes the tone to get a really bright, brittle edge. What are some ways to fix this?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-08-05 03:49
It's always seemed to me that if speed causes something, whether it's sound, fingering, rhythm or anything else, to degrade, then the speed is causing something to change. The logical fix is to slow down to a point where everything is under control and sounds good. Then add speed incrementally, concentrating on not changing anything except the speed. If the player reaches a point at which something bad happens, then some analysis is needed to identify what went wrong, what changed. Once that's been worked out, the goal is again to start a little slower, this time being forewarned about the problem and concentrating on avoiding it.
Have the student play a passage slowly enough that the tone and voicing are under control. Then have him or her speed up a little at a time (using a metronome if necessary to control the speed increases), listening at each repetition for some change in the tone or voicing. Either the change will appear at some point and you can discuss it and get the student to identify and recognize it, or else by approaching a faster tempo in small steps the student will be able to reach a target tempo without having the sound get brittle, giving him or her a set of new sensations to try to reproduce on future attempts.
Karl
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-05 04:26
What is voicing?
How can you discern an altissimo note sounds acceptable when "quickly" played in a chromatic scale?
Perhaps if an "acceptable" altissimo note is reached in a quickly played scale, stop and sustain that note. Sense what occurs when the note is sustained. Sense any change that may occur.
Percieve, as much as possible, what may change the moment that you decide to sustain any altissimo note when you cease a quickly played scale.
If an altissimo note sounds particularly offensive when sustained, stop when that note is reached and MAKE it sound "worse"!
If the boundary of what makes any note sound "bad" is not discerned, then how can the area that produces an "acceptable" altissimo note be discovered.
I'd suggest 'opening' your throat, but I have no suggestions on how to achieve it without the application of a bottle-jack. Or if it would even be effective.
Often, 90% of our clarinet journey is a personal discovery, and 10% may fall to the whims of an instructor. Some require that 10% intervention to access the latent 90%. Others need no outside assistance for true personal discovery. You'll figure that out for yourself in due time.
-Jason
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-10 01:00
Hi All,
Well here I am after 30 years of playing the clarinet only very occasionally!
I managed to do very well at Grade 8 when I was 16 by avoiding anything above G in the altissimo. However recently, after buying my childhood dream of a pair of B&H 1010s I find myself again smitten and ready for a challenge!
So as an adult I am facing my former nemesis head on!
My aim is not to jump great heights or achieve high status but to play the Ireland Fantasy Sonata and make it sound....... well....... like a fantasy and not a nightmare ;-) .Yet in my former clarinet life, just one look at the manuscript would have had me running for the hills.
So two weeks in, what have I learned?
Well back then we were told not to pinch with the lower lip, but when all atttempts are evading the required response what does one do? Well yes you have guessed it and I have reed burn below my lower lip. However this has alerted me to something. I put my lower lip way back over my teeth and probably much further back than I should. The dilemma is, that I seem to be getting a really nice tone in the chalumeau, around the break and the clarion so I am a little bit reluctant to change the habit of a lifetime.
One other thing that I came across by perusing my old Thurston Frank 'was the advice on 'position' which suggested that if your lower teeth are slightly uneven, to hold the clarinet slightly to the side. I have always had a slightly taller sharper tooth on one side of my mouth hence my lip has always been folded back to accommodate this. I find the high notes much easier now when gripping the mouthpiece slightly to the side.
Several other things have helped me. Half holeing with the right hand has made my altissimo D and E so much nicer and helps me physically and psychologically blend this with the rest of my playing.
Believing I can do it is one of the main things. A strategy that really helped me was to play with my teeth on the reed. I would have laughed if you had told me I would get altissimo double c but I can do it easily with teeth on the reed. I would not always want to play this way but I now start off with teeth on the reed and then follow up with G, A or Bb in the conventional way which now seems easy and surprisingly low and mellow :-)
In terms of chromatic scales and high notes, Michele Gingras' You Tube video and fingering has really helped me.
The other thing is to look at all the alternative fingerings and just see what works for you. The trouble is, the longer you spend, the more tired you get and it is harder both physically and mentally to achieve so give yourself a break. Also play some lovely pieces that let you use your other registers to the full so you still love your clarinet and negate the urge to throw it up the wall!
Happy high notes!
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-15 09:05
Hi Again,
Just to let the OP know that there is some hope of conquering the altissimo!
I am now happy enough with mine to have started working on the Ireland.
That first altissimo F is a bit scary as although it is not a massively high note, it is exposed and needs to be quite gentle. The long fingering is too strident and makes the transition to the C below a little tricky. The one which uses LH 2, 3 G sharp key and pinky isn't reliable enough but I have found putting the first finger down as well gives me a gentle and very secure altissimo F which is ideal. I also like the piece as the legato requires a lot of air support to sound good which also helps my altissimo. I have listened to various recordings of the Ireland on You Tube and have found this inspiring.
Also, I can now get a fairly secure B natural 75% of the time so am continuing to work on this. The high C I only manage about 30% of the time at the moment.To keep myself hopeful I then do the teeth on the reed thing and I often overshoot way into the next altissimo range. Then I go back to trying the C in the conventional way and I seem to get a better success using this preparation.
I have been listening to people who make it seem effortless such as Artie Shaw and found the documentary on You Tube fascinating and inspiring.
I have ordered the Artie Shaw Concerto and will let myself play extracts when I get my top C up to 50% success. I haven't really played any jazz before so that will be a challenge. I don't think I will be attempting to put the slides in too soon though!
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-08-15 09:57
Hi Paula,
I agree with you regarding the opening of the Ireland though you really need to find that sound and colour which is going to get you through the piece. Check out my recording to see what I mean.
http://soundcloud.com/you/tracks
Best wishes with it all.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-16 09:50
Thanks Peter. I listened to your recording and it is one of my favourite versions. Plenty of inspiration for getting my altissimo up to scratch and for capturing the mood of the piece!
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Author: g3clrnt
Date: 2012-08-16 20:51
Chiming in just a little...
Make sure that you have the right kind of reed. in my opinion, If there is not enough material in between the side(s) and the heart of the reed on the upper 1/2 of the reed vamp, the high notes will never sound good or speak reliably at all. You'll find yourself trying to take in too much reed, which will alter your clarion register if you do.
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-16 23:42
High notes are stabilized by what is known as reed resonance. Steve Thompson wrote his physics doctoral thesis under Arthur Bonade about the subject. A copy of his thesis is online, here:
http://www.sctacoustics.com/CV.htm
Essentially, high notes on the clarinet are naturally weak, but the reed has a few natural vibrational frequencies in the range of the high notes and when the note on the clarinet is close to the frequency of the reed, the two systems resonate and the sound becomes stronger. The reed frequencies can be modified by lip pressure, air speed, and oral cavity formation. Ed Planker is right on. Playing a scale forces the lip to relax favoring the lower frequencies of the reed which are closer to the notes on the clarinet. Playing slowly causes the oral cavity to contract and the lip pressure to increase forcing the reed frequency higher than the clarinet frequency and resonance is lost leading to a weaker sound. So, in playing higher notes the hard part is to relax. One can modify the reed to a certain extent to bring the frequencies of the lower natural reed modes (usually 1 and 2) closer to the clarinet frequencies of the upper range, but without detailed knowledge of reed shape and mechanical properties, the best one can do is give general principles.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-17 00:13
A more resistant/hard/"stiff" reed has stronger resonance peaks at high frequencies, so the upper harmonics are actually more stable and easier to induce (within functional boundaries.)
... of course "squeaking" is also much easier as the the upper harmonics speak with more ease; perhaps causing a mismatch between the chosen fingering and oral cavity configuration.
Quote:
Playing a scale forces the lip to relax favoring the lower frequencies of the reed which are closer to the notes on the clarinet. Playing slowly causes the oral cavity to contract and the lip pressure to increase forcing the reed frequency higher than the clarinet frequency and resonance is lost leading to a weaker sound. So, in playing higher notes the hard part is to relax.
I have read this paragraph several times and not been able to discern any useful information that could be extracted... aren't all notes that we play, even if not what is desired, notes on the clarinet?
I am confused how the speed of our playing causes the lip or oral cavity to do anything outside of our desires if attention is paid... relaxation left out of the discussion for now.
Can you clarify for our sake please?
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-08-17 00:18)
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-17 12:28
Hello,
Along with my friend Mr Baermann, this discussion has been really useful to me so thank you all.
I was toying with changing my reed to a slightly harder one. I have Vandoren v12 3.5s on my standard 1010 mouthpiece. Way back when I was playing for several hours a day I used standard Vandoren 3.5s which I believe are slightly harder? Also there have been some really interesting points about the technical properties of the reed and positioning the reed which have given me food for thought. I have resisted the temptation to change so far as I quite like the overall sound I am getting but will bear this in mind. The other point about lip pressure and the oral cavity, and air speed have been something I have been trying to capture/mentally' photograph'/memorise when I have been successful at hitting the top C with a good pitch and tone. I was wondering what it should feel like physically? At the moment when I get it right I feel like I am launching myself off the floor ( not literally of course). I have watched videos of other clarinettists hitting these notes and many of them seem to do the same? Artie Shaw seems to hold it together though with just a few bulging blood vessels! My memory of the classical repetoire and pieces that require this has faded I am afraid as most of that got thrown in my 'too high for me pile'. What I would like to know is, are there any pieces which demand a clarion c to altissimo c jump? I have been warming up with octave to octave jumps mainly to get my tuning right. This is where the high C has been very variable. I have got it most of the time in a scale and when I have been playing argeggios. My new tuner arrived yesterday and when I hit the C properly it is spot on in tune. If there are such pieces which demand an octave jump then it is probably highly unlikely I would ever perform them but I would like to know I could do it if I tried. ;-) I vaguely remember a high C at the end of the Spohr but can't remember the note that preceded it. The Shaw Concerto came through the post today and I can see it finishes with an altissimo G to C which I now know I could do. My question is, is it worth continuing to play those warm up octaves across all the C's and induce bulging blood vessels and a convulsive diaphragm?
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-17 13:36
Jason wrote:
"I have read this paragraph several times and not been able to discern any useful information that could be extracted... aren't all notes that we play, even if not what is desired, notes on the clarinet?
I am confused how the speed of our playing causes the lip or oral cavity to do anything outside of our desires if attention is paid... relaxation left out of the discussion for now."
The principle modal (m = 1) vibrational frequency of a standard clarinet reed is around 1925 Hz. There are two pseudo-torsional modes (m = -2, -1) below this that we really don't understand (and don't concern us, here). Notes from G5 and above generate harmonics that can become resonant with the reed modal frequencies. The reed on the mouthpiece is vibrating up and down at whatever the frequency of the note being played on the clarinet is (tube or air frequency), but the reed, itself, also has its own internal vibrational (modal) frequencies and the tube frequency harmonics and the internal reed modal frequencies can reinforce each other making the sound stronger. This is what Steve Thompson showed. This is the reed resonance effect and it is responsible for making the high notes on the instrument playable.
Now, as one goes up the scale, contrary to what one might think, the embouchre relaxes although it feels as if it is tightening (at least this is what Dr. Benade told me during a conversation and it makes sense from a kinesthetic point of view, as more relaxed finger muscles = greater speed and this carries over to the mouth). This relaxation helps make the higher notes more stable because putting pressure on the reed (biting) increases its frequency (think of mass-loading of a spring) pushing the reed modal frequency farther away from the tube frequency and decreasing the reed resonance effect. So, tensing the jaw makes higher notes harder to play.
Oral cavity resonances are another subject. There is good research to show that oral cavity resonances can have effects on sound production. Some articles:
http://mis.ucd.ie/Members/RJohnst/oldclart.pdf
http://doctorsax.biz/smac03.pdf
My colleague, Peter Hoekje did some of the early research.
How one forms the oral cavity can also stabilize the higher notes.
Jason wrote:
"A more resistant/hard/"stiff" reed has stronger resonance peaks at high frequencies, so the upper harmonics are actually more stable and easier to induce (within functional boundaries.)
... of course "squeaking" is also much easier as the the upper harmonics speak with more ease; perhaps causing a mismatch between the chosen fingering and oral cavity configuration."
Actually, although harder reeds might have slightly higher modal frequencies than softer reeds, the intensities are less because it takes more power to excite them. Stiffer reeds contain more intensity of the lower modal frequencies near the 1925 Hz fundamental and this makes it easier for these reeds tomto resonate with the air column.
Squeaking has nothing to do with harmonics. Squeaking is a sudden whole-body oscillation of the reed at its fundamental frequency of about 1925 Hz (about B6, near the highest note on the instrument). Squeaking results from either fluid friction (pressure) between the sides of the mouthpiece (mouthpiece rails) and reed suddenly going either to zero or exceeding a large threshold value (there are two ways to cause squeaking). The details of this so-called lambda bifurcation are in my dissertation.
It is fairly easy to make a reed that will almost never squeak and a reed that will almost alway squeak. I do this on the bass clarinet. I can make the reed almost unable to squeak or almost unable not to squeak. It is a fairly easy technique to learn. It involves bending the sides of the reed upwards. This creates a larger gap between the reed and the rails making fluid friction build-up enough to cause squeaking almost impossible. Listoken came up with the technique in the 1970's, if memory serves.
Hope this helps.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-17 21:31
Donald,
It appears that we are devolving into a 2 person fight that will serve no-one at the end of it all, perhaps due to my needling, but I still see a few gaps that need filled if anybody aside from the 2 of us is to have any fulfillment...
But platform for discussion needs to be constructed
First: When it comes to the hard and fast Physics you are employing, I understand what you are talking about. I cannot claim to be able to generate the computed data set as some of the necessary, complex equations that reside in the "Calculus/differential equation" corner, are a bit beyond where I departed my studies in the Calculus realm... Dealing with bore/reed behavior, standing waves, the role of impedance in governing behavior, the necessarily integer harmonics present in the resultant sound despite the non-idealized closed-cylinder that is the clarinet etc... will really get us nowhere. And I think we will lose our audience.
Second: Let's leave name dropping to the extent "Person 'X' told me this" out; even someone like Dr. Benade may not have been "right" on all counts... In fact I patently disagree: as more relaxed finger muscles = greater speed and this carries over to the mouth as truth even though it is supported by a (correct?) mutation of Dr. Benade's statement.
Relaxed muscles do not guarantee the highest possible speed... I ran track, and my quickest starts out of the blocks occurred when my leg muscles were slightly contracted to varying degrees. On the clarinet, a completely relaxed finger and a finger with particular levels of opposed muscle contraction, pre-movement, will function quite differently.... the balanced poise set up by slightly contracted muscles may even counter-intuitively allow quicker function.
'Relaxed' is quite a loaded term because it generates several images. Perhaps we are better off leaving the term out of matters; it really only serves us usefully if it's employed in a comparative manner i.e. this muscle is more relaxed than this other muscle.... But even that is limited because we cannot quantify the level of relaxation.
Third The role of the oral cavity in harmonic selection has been "discussed" here several times; a brief search will bear out some of the discussions. Essentially, they boil down to those denying the observed truths of rearward tongue position/not-sensed oral cavity changes necessary for harmonic/modal shifts, and others that take the findings (beginning with Wheeler, if you'd abide the name dropping) as fact even if the precise physical movements cannot be felt.
Simply stating that the throat should be relaxed, open, opened is totally unacceptable as it is a falsehood and only causes confusion in the minds and resultant playing of less initiated readers.
Further, what some refer to as squeaks are only a higher harmonic sounding due to a mismatched oral cavity/tongue placement for the fingering employed.
And there are squeaks as defined by a Physicist when the reed suddenly vibrates at its non-lip-damped natural frequency. The fluid dynamics of the situation would likely interest few, and I cannot keep up with you if we delve into Navier-Stokes equations... above my pay grade.
Possibly a torsional vibration of the reed around its y-axis may cause another type of squeak?
Perhaps there are squeaks and there are "squeaks"
But let's return to your statement that I found a bit unclear for a moment, as that is where the confusion for the majority of readers may lie...
Quote:
Playing a scale forces the lip to relax favoring the lower frequencies of the reed which are closer to the notes on the clarinet. Playing slowly causes the oral cavity to contract and the lip pressure to increase forcing the reed frequency higher than the clarinet frequency and resonance is lost leading to a weaker sound. So, in playing higher notes the hard part is to relax.
There seem to be some self-contradicting words here.
What occurs if we play a scale slowly? It appears we have a disagreement as the lip is forced to relax by playing a scale and also forced to apply more "pressure" (higher damping?) to the reed by playing slowly.
How does the speed of our playing cause oral cavity shifts to occur any differently than when playing at a faster pace, save the rate of change?
Also, lip 'pressure' and 'relaxing' seem to be used interchangeably. The role of the teeth in applying pressure, regardless of the amount of lip contraction (orbicularis oris?) is left out totally.
As for relaxation being the hard part of playing high, what precisely is it that you are stating we should be relaxing? The embouchure, "lip", "throat", shoulders?
Perhaps you are equipped to shed some light on these matters from the side of a Physicist, but I do think a bit more clarity is needed... at least for me.
Thanks in advance for your reply,
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-08-18 01:33)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-08-18 01:44
There are times when we must play a high note that is veiled or covered in tonal quality. I expect you would like to have that capability in your playing skills. High notes generally are louder and stick out when we want them to blend into the fabric. I would look at three things.... 1. fingerings....some are more covered than others....they might not be great for a fast scale Tom Ridenour has videos on some of these fingerings. Also pick fingerings that are best for the tuning......if the high note is a soft dynamic vs loud then that might require something different.... 2. Practice overtones....you should work on 'voicing' high notes...be aware that high d is related to the f below it, high e is related to the g below it. etc.
3. Air support... 4. Practice ..high notes with air attack.... 5. just practice 6. Take lessons You may have noticed I turned three things into six. I really meant six.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Donald Casadonte
Date: 2012-08-18 18:35
Dear Jason,
I don't mind the needling, really, as long as it's charitable. It keeps me on my toes and you know, I can sometimes slip over into pompous-windbaggery if I don't have someone to deflate my ego now and again (just don't crush it).
With that in mind, I do want to clarify one thing. In any civilized discussion, if one makes an assertion, one should, usually, provide data to back it up and a warrant that connects the assertion to the data and shows that the data applies to the assertion. Now, the types of warrants usually accepted in argumentation include peer-reviewed journal articles/dissertations, etc., actual experiments done by the asserter, a logical or mathematical proof, and expert testimony. None of these warranted data presentations are considered, "name-dropping," in a normal discussion. Indeed, it is almost impossible to present the warrant without naming names. Name-dropping used in a fallacious sense is the converse of the genetic fallacy or "guilt-by-association." Name-dropping, as a fallacy in argument is a type of praise-by-association:
This man is right (or good),
I know him,
so I must be right (good).
It is a fallacy of the converse accident.
Now, I cited Dr. Benade not to name-drop, but as an expert witness. One does not usually make a remark about the embouchure and rising up the scale unless one has a basis to do so and since this is a matter of musical acoustics and he is an expert, his testimony is warranted. One may assume he conducted experiments on the subject and simply reported the results to me. Now, I may be misremembering him and if, so , I apologize to you and him, but it is my best recollection and it is relevant to the discussion.
You will notice that to back up my claims about the influence of reed resonance on the stabilization of high notes on the clarinet I gave a direct links to Steven Thompson's dissertation so that anyone could examine the evidence. In addition, I talked to Thompson directly when I did my research back in the day to clarify the issues. Thompson generated the theory and I provided the first computational model of the vibrational modes of the clarinet reed and these directly support his claims. I then measured the reed modes acoustically to check the computational model. The computer models have since been replicated by two different research groups using different computer programs and the modal shapes have been independently verified by acoustic holography by Peter Hoekje and at least one other independent research group. No one in the musical acoustics community doubts the reed resonance effect.
Now, the resonance strengthening between the reed modes and the cavity modes can only occur when the modes are sufficiently close together. Increased pressure (and by pressure, here, I mean bite pressure - was this not clear, earlier?) on the reed surface shifts the reed modes to slightly different frequency which pushes it out of the ideal range for resonance. The correlation between lip pressure and reed mode shifting is pretty clear. I can show you the effect on computer simulations that we have strong evidence in both empirical measurements and other computer simulations to believe is correct.
So, as I said, higher bite pressure that causes loss of resonance (and, obviously, the exact numbers will depend on the particular reed) will, certeris paribus. lead to a weaker sound.
The general correlation between finger speed and the relaxation of the lips (I am not attempting to be very specific here) which I postulated (not Benade - see below) seems correct, because there seems to be a simultaneous region of activation of the supplemental motor cortex in foot finger and mouth movements so one would expect a mild feedback coupling between the fingers and mouth when they are simultaneously activated. See, for instance, Milliken, Stokic, and Tarkka:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10478709
Stiff fingers use oxygen (and generate lactic acid) faster than loose fingers and so, unless one is exercising volutional control to deliberately stiffen the fingers (or one has some sort of dyskinesia), when the fingers move faster, they also move looser so as to last longer and not fatigue. This, plus the connections in the supplemental motor cortex does not prove, but lend support to the mild correlation between faster fingering and a relaxed mouth. I do not claim to be an expert in this area and I stand to be corrected, however, I did the first peer-reviewed theoretical modeling of the neurodynamic origins of laughter in the brainstem (which matched the esophageal pressure measurements taken by an independent researcher - the paper is online), so I have a little idea about how the brain works in these areas.
In any case, to set the record straight, what Dr. Benade said (again, to the best of my ability to recall at the moment) was that as one goes up the scale to higher notes the embouchure relaxes. He said nothing about fingers. That was my gloss and I tried to explain my reasoning, above. For reed resonance to work, the embouchure would have to relax as one goes to higher notes for the reasons I indicated. If one is strictly speaking about reed resonance.
We. of course could clear this up, immediately, if there are any physiologists reading this who would be willing to do an electromyographic study of the muscles of the mouth during playing. This is one of the projects I wanted to do for my dissertation, but ran out of time.
As for oral cavity effects, I cited two links that contain both papers and citations to other papers. I realize that this is a controversial topic and I know some of the researchers on the front lines, but I think there is a dearth of good data, even yet about oral cavity resonances. It is difficult to separate the mouthpiece from the mouth resonances or impedances in an exact way while keeping the mouthpiece in the mouth. This is also very hard to study computationally (although, again, this was on my short list when I ran out of time while working on my dissertation) because there wasn't any robust code for doing this, last I checked. In fluid dynamic terms, the clarinet mouthpiece/mouth is in a strange position of being slow flow and moderate Reynolds numbers and when I was looking for a good solver, there wasn't any. I will have to check, again. My opinion is that since there is definitely coupling between the vocal tract and the mouthpiece, there has to be some effect, if even on thermodynamic arguments. but the effect may be small. There appears to be some literature results to indicate some effect in the altissimo range, which is the topic under discussion. See. Fritz and Wolfe:
arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0505195
As for squeaking, you wrote:
"Further, what some refer to as squeaks are only a higher harmonic sounding due to a mismatched oral cavity/tongue placement for the fingering employed."
Does this not assume an influence of the vocal tract? Wheeler's tongue changes would, today, be cast in the form of the tongue changing the impedance from one impedance peak to another in the coupled mouth/tube system. This, of course, is not a true squeak as this is an air column effect. A squeak is not really tunable.
You wrote:
"And there are squeaks as defined by a Physicist when the reed suddenly vibrates at its non-lip-damped natural frequency. The fluid dynamics of the situation would likely interest few, and I cannot keep up with you if we delve into Navier-Stokes equations... above my pay grade."
Of course, this is correct. I went into this in some detail in my dissertation. There are two ways to cause squeaking. One involves removing the damping and one involved a sudden increase. I could not find a satisfactory explanation for the origin of reed squeaking in the literature when I wrote my dissertation. I was the first person to explain the effects of fluid friction (pressure) between the mouthpiece and reed and how the effect occurred.
There is another form of squeak that can occur due to purely fluid flow causing the reed to behave like an aeolean harp, but this is similar to the friction = zero case, above.
I know I've provided more ammunition in the conversation, but I hope I have clarified somethings, if not confused others.
Donald Casadonte
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-18 20:22
Will continue the octave leaps for tuning the altissimo. The music for the Gershwin Preludes came today and there is a clarion C to altissimo C leap in the first movement. Getting a grip on the altissimo has certainly opened a door to music I would never have imagined playing. I am really loving the jazz and played the Artie Shaw Concerto yesterday and it was an absolute blast! :-)
Also it is really helping my interpretation of some of the classical repertoire, which I never expected. I played the Brahms F minor sonata today and after years of playing it, I now understand the phrasing and how each phrase connects to the next. It is not quite note bending but using an extremely flexible embouchure has solved a long standing puzzle for me and it sounds so different and so right! :-)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-08-18 20:41
BRAVA, PAULA!!!
You have hit upon some very important points (I can tell you're getting the altissimo properly by what you've just written--including that bit about the Brahms).
A new world of truly mastering the entire clarinet is opening to you. Enjoy the ride.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-19 07:41
Thank you Eric :-)
I feel like I have won the lottery!
I still can't quite believe those notes and sounds are coming out of my 1010s.
I think there might be a jazz ghost hiding in them. ;-)
Kindest regards
Paula
Post Edited (2012-08-19 07:50)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-08-19 13:36
As a wide bore player myself you'll generally find that 1010 are very stable in the upper register whether or not you use the Eb ket to aid tuning.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-19 18:15
Yes Peter, I agree.
I only tend to use the Eb key when I have a reed which I feel is too soft or I am getting tired. I am still working on the Ireland and am making good progress. I still think the first line is the hardest section of the whole piece.
I am getting the top Bb and the really high notes fine later in the piece. It is often coming down that is more difficult to judge and I can give it too much 'welly' which the clarinet can object to.
Can I ask what fingering you are using for the high Eb in the first line?
I have used the one with the trill key or the R hand F sharp key but that can rather stand out and I have to subdue it. On the other hand, using the A key around the break is more gentle but I have to give it more 'welly' from the diaphragm to get it up to pitch.
Kindest regards
Paula
Post Edited (2012-08-19 18:16)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-19 22:31
Donald,
I have been away from the computer for a few days and have only just now had a chance to read your reply.
I suppose there is needling (charitable or not) and down right jabbing... I think I strayed into the latter. Where-ever I fell, I'll take my hat in hand and simply say: in the future I will try not to be an ass. (And that I'm not seeking ammunition.)
When discussion comes down to the quantifiable mechanics of reed function, I obviously have no means to under-take a study as you did, nor can I claim to "understand" all the complex equations of fluid dynamics, etc... to even attempt to contradict any findings. I departed my studies in Calculus and Physics when I realized it took away time from other ventures (such as clarinets, saxophones, cars and girls.) I understand the equations in a far more bastardized, general way... though I can still glean the implications. (Perhaps my ability to solve multi-variable equations and do partial-derivatives is in hiding with Schrödinger's cat.)
And I must admit that I have not truly digested your dissertation in totality.....
I do have a question: increased bite pressure on the reed shifts its resonant modes away from their ideal location that best strengthen/stabilize wave interaction with the natural resonances of the bore... How does the change in flexion of the lower lip figure into the equation?
We can stretch the lip to the sides, or gather it forward.... or even let it become extremely "supple" through relaxation of the surrounding muscles; independent of the bite pressure.
Do the varying levels of lip flexion also have an effect separate from an increase in bite pressure? Or does the reed simply "know" it has been more mass-loaded and shift resonances as it will?
Can oral cavity/vocal tract tuning counteract/enhance these effects?
Perhaps, we will need that physiologist to chime in on certain counts...
Regarding a loose fingers/relaxed embouchure correlation: I am not in any position to agree, disagree or contradict with observed evidence. And indeed I am not too keenly aware how the brain is wired... I will digest the link you posted before even attempting to chime in.
If the findings of Wheeler, and clearly later studies (including the links you posted) show us anything, there are aspects of the playing experience that occur outside of our awareness, and may even stand in contrast to what has been "accepted wisdom" for many years. Perhaps they even show a clear contradiction between what we would say we are doing and what is truly occurring. Though, there are some that would still discount the effects of vocal tract tuning. (For the record, I am not one of those fools if I presented myself as such.)
I do have some other questions, and am sure more will crop up, but I have some reading to do to best ask what I wish to. ...And to find out that I don't know what it is that I don't know.
Perhaps that is fodder for a separate thread, or off-line, as I'd wager we would be off in a corner talking with nary an eye thrown our way by most other readers in this current thread.
Sorry for the sloppy post, but I have to run.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-08-20 01:03)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-08-20 10:37
Paula,
I use the standard fingering for Eb in the opening passage. Do you have Acton Vent on your 1010s? If you do you could also try playing Eb with just the middle finger of the right hand (left as normal). See if these work well for you. The note to remember is the Ab that you have to go to from the Eb and getting a smooth a transition as possible.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-08-20 11:35
A lot of the discussion on this thread reminds me of my first humiliation.
As an Engineer who studied until I was 24 and thought I could relate everything to science and physics I took my cousin for his first game of golf. He was an expert spring board diver and footballer (soccer). I explained everything about the golf swing and told him he would be better off driving off with an iron until he had more experience. He took out his driver and outdrove me on his very first stroke of his very first game. The lesson I learnt was that hand eye coordination trumped theory.
I wonder if knowing about the Reynolds Number of expanding gases inside the combustion chambers would have made Aryton Senna a better driver.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-20 19:01
Assuredly, Physics and Science are not the end-all-be-all when it comes down to actually performing any skill....
But perhaps any said professional clarinetist may merely be "interested" in certain matters...
And then there are others that become subject to hellish self-analysis at the mere mention of such matters. Hopefully they know their traits and avoid reading something that may merely confound them...
Even further, there are some who instruct as professionals that desire to know some truths about their field, if only to know what not to tell a student in any given situation...
And there are some without sufficient ability and knowledge that shouldn't really be teaching anybody anything...
Perhaps a more tasteful driver could have been used as an example than Senna... even though I believe I understand what you are attempting to imply.
-Jason
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-20 21:06
Thanks Peter for your advice.
Yes I have the Acton vent on both the Bb and the A. The former is a 1973 model and the latter a 1967 so a type 2 and a type 1 vent respectively.
You make a good point about the f sharp key which has alerted me to the fact that the vent might need adjusting as the cork is past it best. So my top Eb may be suffering ( or am I just a bad workman blaming my tools? ;-) )
I tried the A and that seems much more subtle and I am fortunate in that they feel so similar that I hardly notice the difference in resistance when changing from one to the other. I also use the same mouthpiece and barrel.
I am going on a one day workshop for clarinet maintenance in early September so will take my clarinets with me and will hopefully sort them out then. Your point about the transition from the Eb to the Ab is also very useful and after I had tested the high Eb with F sharp key on my A clarinet I tried thinking differently and the transition then seemed even smoother and the pitch/timbre of the notes better.
Kindest regards
Paula
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-20 21:19
I love these pieces and this cool guy's interpretation of them. Just how relaxed does he look even when hitting some super high notes?!!! If you visit this board David, just wanted to let you know that you are great! :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qwlQaLGpUA
Enjoy!
Post Edited (2012-08-20 21:20)
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-08-20 21:22
...Perhaps a more tasteful driver could have been used as an example than Senna... even though I believe I understand what you are attempting to imply.
-Jason
Hi Jason. What have you got against Ayrton, he was my all time hero...No, don't tell me, it might end up as "Handbags at dawn"
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-08-20 22:43
Though we are now off on a tangent...
I don't have anything against Ayrton, and I'm not looking for a duel. But considering he died on the race track, I wasn't quite sure if something more was being said than what was there at "face-value." Obviously I was reading too deeply into your post.
I suppose I may have chosen Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher or Carroll Shelby....
But let's get back on track...
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-08-20 22:56)
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-08-21 09:18
I apologise for a post that could be misintepretted, it was a bit convoluted and ambiguous. Absolutely no deep meaning. Just thought the theory was going into realms too advanced to meet the objective of helping to form the needed embouchure. But that was only my opinion...and handbags were mentioned just to let you know the offer of a duel was made in jest.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-08-21 15:30
Hi Paula,
I'm a little confused. You shouldn't be using the F sharp key to help stabilise the intonation in the altisimo register. You should be using the Eb/D# key. I also confused as the Ireland is for Bb not A.
Could you clarify?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-21 20:17
Hi Peter,
Thanks again for your reply. ;-)
I didn't make myself very clear so many apologies.
I was referring to the fingering for the altissimo Eb for which I have used the RH trill key for or alternatively have also tried using the RH clarion f sharp/chalumeau B natural key for.
I know the Ireland is for the Bb but my Bb doesn't seem to like the f sharp RH key for the altissimo Eb and I think there might be a problem with my Acton vent which may need adjusting.
So to test out whether using the RH f sharp key fingering for altissimo Eb actually works on the 1010, I tried this on my A which works perfectly.
So with adjustment to the Acton vent on the Bb 1010, I think the RH f sharp key might work very well for the altissimo Eb.
Ooooooooooh gosh.......... still sounds complicated doesn't it?
Anyway thanks sooo much for all your help!
Kindest regards
Paula
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-08-21 20:30
Paula,
I still don't understand why you would use the F#. The reason it's not working I would suggest is because the F# doesn't work and therefore you should be using the Eb/D# (G#/Ab) key for the Eb and all the other altisimo notes.
I would be worth getting the acton vent checked. I used 1010s through my student days before moving onto Eaton Elites, and found that the vent can get out of adjustment. especially on the early models which, like you, I had on my A.
Forget about using the F# and concentrate on the standard fingering for now. The only time I would suggest using different right hand pinky keys would be to change sonority like you might have to do in contemporary pieces.
Best wishes
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-08-21 21:25
Hi Again Peter,
I think there might be cross wires
I was referring to the middle finger key of the right hand not the banana keys.
I hope I haven't given you a major headache?
Blinking clarinets........ they have too many keys............. the flute is much easier ;-)
Thanks again
P
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