 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-06-02 17:47
Just seen a discussion on QI about prestige pricing with the belief that if it costs that much (priced above everything else), it must be good.
Do you think the cost of some prestige soprano clarinets on the market nowadays has gone way over the top? Some above-prestige model Bb and A clarinets are now commanding pretty much the same price as a basset horn, pro level bass or a top model oboe.
Can you justify spending that much on a clarinet if you find it plays no better nor worse than a pro model that costs less than half?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-06-02 17:55
"Can you justify spending that much on a clarinet if you find it plays no better nor worse than a pro model that costs less than half?"
Hi Chris,
If the end result is what you describe, then for me: no I can't.
I play a Rossi Bb and am determining right now whether I believe it is a significant enough improvement over my past R13 Bb's to double-down and buy an A. I will say that (for me) the Rossi responds far and away better than the R13's I owned.
Could I find an R13 or a Yamaha CSG that might play just as well? That's what I'm going to have to figure out.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-06-02 18:40
Beyond a certain level I realise with frustration that the limiting factor is located between chair and mouthpiece. Meh.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2012-06-02 20:32
I often wonder the same thing. I'm interested in trying some of the more expensive clarinets (I haven't really tried anything above a Buffet Prestige). I'd love to test-play a MoBa clarinet for example, but for minimum 8,000, it better not only sing opera, but it better tap dance too. It's hard for me to believe someone could improve an instrument to the point of easily double what my R13 cost. It better be double the instrument. (not saying that R13's are the end-all-be-all clarinet...because I don't believe that are...)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-06-02 21:37
Chris P wrote:
> Can you justify spending that much on a clarinet if you find it
> plays no better nor worse than a pro model that costs less than
> half?
>
To a large extent I think that with the super high end clarinets you are paying for superior workmanship rather than superior functionality. Think of it as buying a Rolls Royce instead of a Mercedes. In terms of functionality there may not me much difference but I doubt many would argue that the workmanship on the Rolls Royce isn't superior. One is an (admittedly very nice) mass produced vehicle while the other is a low-production, largely hand-fitted vehicle. Whether on not the substantially higher price is worth it depends largely on how much the buyer values the better workmanship.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-06-03 00:18
There is one other thing to consider:
I believe that for the great clarinetists their choice of equipment is somewhat immaterial: Morales, Frost, Drucker, etc...are going to sound great on almost any (pro) horn they play on (and most intermediates as well!).
But for someone like me, who's very good but will never set the world on fire, my equipment means more to my success. To be blunt -- I need all the advantage I can arrange.
I'm looking forward to hearing what others will have to say.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-06-03 13:44
Although the Tosca is no longer Buffet's top level clarinet but is among the high end price range of clarinets on the market, I still think the workmanship and finishing on them is average at best considering how much they cost (I wasn't all that impressed with the ones I worked on) and I have doubts the Divine is going to be any better in those respects.
I believe any soprano clarinet from any maker commanding the same price as a basset horn or pro level oboe should be of exceptional quality in every single aspect and should also include far more keywork for the price, not just the LH Ab/Eb lever or low E/F correction keys. Then maybe they can justify the high pricetag.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-06-03 16:24
Chris P wrote:
> I believe any soprano clarinet from any maker commanding the
> same price as a basset horn or pro level oboe should be of
> exceptional quality in every single aspect and should also
> include far more keywork for the price, not just the LH Ab/Eb
> lever or low E/F correction keys. Then maybe they can justify
> the high pricetag.
>
I tend to agree. Unfortunately it seems that a substantial fraction of the clarinet community has decided that much of the usual extra keywork is actually undesirable. One needs only look as far as any thread here concerning the articulated C#/G# key to determine that many simply wouldn't accept a new full boehm or enhanced boehm (everything but the low Eb) clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jmsa
Date: 2012-06-04 12:47
I have a Selmer Series 9* that is as good or better than any R13 that I have ever played.
jmsa
Post Edited (2012-06-04 12:48)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-06-04 17:56
Chris,
Aside from the Buffet top end models, which other high end horns have you worked/played/evaluated.
Chris/Steve,
What additional keywork would you prefer to see?
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-06-04 19:33
Tobin wrote:
> Chris/Steve,
>
> What additional keywork would you prefer to see?
>
> James
>
Articulated C# and fork Eb (7th ring) in addition to the previously mentioned LH Ab/Eb and low E/F correction keys.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Randall
Date: 2012-06-05 02:12
Much like drums, or any other instruments, including clarinets, there's a price range for everyone, but will you sound better, play better the more you spend... nope, you're simply going to spend your money for bragging rights - 'I own a ... '.
Rarely is it ever the horn that makes us sound, or play better. Your setup makes more difference than the horn, and you make more difference than your setup. Save your money and take a nice vacation... don't forget your horn. RC
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-06-05 04:06
Ladies and Gents,
Consider all the marketing (or manipulation) that goes into selling these horns. There is nothing about the prestige clarinets that make them "better" than the regular horn. Take Greg Smith's word on it. Now the Tosca has that poorly designed low F mechanism. Either way all those horns need to go to the shop to be serviced as soon as you buy them by someone like Brannen Woodwinds.
If you compare the quality of work that goes into a high end flute or Laubin Oboe, you would quickly realized that clarinets were essentially junk instruments in terms of quality compared to those flutes and oboes. It wasn't until Morrie Backun really got in the game that the industry was forced to raise its standards.
Should a clarinet cost as much as a pro oboe? Why not? However the value of anything is what people are willing to pay for it.
I have no qualms in putting my CSGII's up against any other maker, big or small and see who comes out ahead. They were also only $8500 for the set. Is it because they are half as good? No it is because at this time most people don't want to even try them because they aren't a Buffet or Selmer. I would have gladly paid 17k for my set. I'm glad the masses haven't caught on, it worked out for me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-06-05 13:47
JamesOrlandoGarcia wrote:
> If you compare the quality of work that goes into a high end
> flute or Laubin Oboe, you would quickly realized that clarinets
> were essentially junk instruments in terms of quality compared
> to those flutes and oboes.
Depends on whether you are talking about mass-produced clarinets like Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, etc. or low-production "boutique" clarinets like Schwenk & Seggelke, Rossi, Wurlitzer, etc. Most high-end flutes and the aforementioned Laubin oboes are most certainly not mass-produced so it's probably not fair to compare them to mass-produced clarinets. I suspect that you will find that the workmansip on the high-end boutique clarinets is just as good as that on the high-end flutes and oboes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-05 17:26
James,
Where on earth did you pay $8,500 for a set of CSG clarinets?
I walked out of the L.A. Altier with a new matched set for $3100. ($1400-Bb, and a $1700- "prototype" A. )
Of course I rarely use them, and at times wonder why I ever bought them in the first place. Hindsight is something something. (I can make them work, but why?, I often wonder...... Perhaps because they are only 20% the instrument when compared to a set of boutique clarinets.)
I could live with 50%, but never 20%.
-Jason
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-06-06 08:21
Most french system/bore professionals were not using SS, Rossi, Wurlitzer etc. I don't play Backun Clarinets (They are quite stellar and I'm a huge fan) but I think it is worth noting that many many big time orchestral and solo clarinetists are now using his horns.
Buster, in case you didn't catch it, I don't play on CSG clarinets. I use CSGII clarinets which are a redesign of the CSG clarinets with the addition of a low E/F, Eb and gold mechanism. They are in terms of quality what I would imagine Schwenk & Seggelke clarinets would feel like. Perfectly voiced, amazing intonation and beyond.
Regular CSG's can quite nice too, they were a good first thought. Going from a shockingly high quality set of R-13s to this set of CSGII's. The difference is night and day. I have no qualms about putting my horns up against anyone's clarinets. I do some pretty hardcore chamber and orchestral work and for an orchestral player such as myself who aspires to highest levels of musical satisfaction, these clarinets do the job and more.
I mean really. Who thinks because someone were to forge key work by hand versus more modern methods that it is somehow better? The old way are not better. They are just old.
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
Post Edited (2012-06-06 18:26)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-06-06 13:08
Hi Buster,
When did you buy those horns at that price? I have some students who would LOVE to buy CSG's under $2K!
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-06-06 13:14
I looked on CSGII's in Singapore and they cost $4.5k+ for the Bb only! I wonder how CSGs are sold half that price.. Then the European CSGIII would be triple? cold joke hahah
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-06-06 18:35
Perhaps Buster's set of CSG clarinets were purchased back in 2005 or so when the original CSG premiered? He did mention that the CSG A was a prototype.
To clear up some confusion:
CSG is an r-13 tier clarinet with similar features such as silver keys and an adjustable thumb rest. New CSG is priced around $2400
CSGII is more like a tosca tier clarinet featuring an Aux Eb Key, Low E/F Correction Mechanism and a revised bore and keywork for near flawless intonation and voicing. There is also an option for gold (hamilton) plating. With hamilton plating the CSGII is priced around $4006
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-06 21:17
James (Tobin),
I purchased them at the Atelier Artist Studio in L.A. in 2008 or 9 (I'd need to find the receipts.)
Unfortunately for your students, I purchased them at dealer cost, not retail price. I apologize for getting anybody's hopes up... your students won't be afforded the access I had.
-Jason
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-06-06 22:14
Hi Jason,
It sounded like it was pricing from previous years, and if you were able to get them at a steep discount as well then I can understand why today's prices seem high.
The original conversation started with what people perceive is the quality and value of the top-end clarinet market -- we've unfortunately had very few people who have considered purchasing a $6000+ clarinet respond with their thoughts.
I do agree that discussing the Yamaha CSGII line is of value -- if they are as high quality as James says then a "prestige" quality horn would have to be significantly better to be worth the price tag.
James -- you mentioned the Backun clarinets. How many did you try, and was it solely price tag that deterred you?
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-06 22:24
James (Garcia),
To remove all confusion stemming from my posts (I caught all of it):
The CSG was indeed "a good first thought".
But CSGII is really not as different as you may think.... the tech I worked with in L.A. was involved in the design of both iterations. Getting into the specifics is a pointless discussion for me.
(For full disclosure: My Bb is a mutant with factory gold-plated keys, the A has Hamilton plating, with some modifications that are present in the CSGII; and some which were apparently not cost effective. The plating made absolutely no difference in the sound.)
As for the rambling portion of my previous post (which was pointed out briefly): all this inane talk of putting any inert clarinet up against an equally valid inert clarinet with cost as the mediating factor is ridiculous. They still need to be played.
The true mediating factor "is located between the chair and mouthpiece" as Ben (tictactux) wisely wrote.
I ultimately found I could do my job with the same end result, day in and out, on several differing brands of clarinet..... the Yamahas simply seemed to stay in their case more so than I thought after I purchased them. Unfortunately I had to retire prematurely, so all this talk is now merely an aside to my situation.
Though the CSG and CSG-II indeed are all fine clarinets.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-06-07 03:13)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-06-06 22:31
I've never worked on the more recent expensive Leblancs (which appear to be no longer made), Backuns or Rossis or any other 'boutique' instruments as no-one in my area plays them (most people here play R13s, some play R13/RC Prestiges, some Leblanc Concerto and Opus and some Yamaha CSGHs) - I only know one Rossi player in the next county but haven't had a detailed look or go on them to make an assessment.
I can only assume (and hope) the prestigious instruments made in smaller quantities from the smaller makers have far more attention to detail compared to those from a major manufacturer.
The most expensive clarinets from a major manufacturer that I have worked on and consequently play tested were Toscas - I still prefer my old Selmers to them. There are some CSGH owners in the area, but they're (and the CSGIIIL are) still very reasonably priced clarinets to some others (around the same price as an R13), all things considering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-06-07 16:53
Tobin,
I've tried about four or five in the both variations of wood, plating and model. They are fantastic clarinets! I play the flute (a bit) and if you were to go from playing say a Gemeinhardt to playing a Powell Handmade the difference in keywork/mechanism quality is stunning. I had never played a clarinet before that had the same type of response where the keys went went back up as quickly as you released them until I tried Morrie's prototypes in 2011. They really are the equivalent of Powell and Brannen Flutes for the clarinet world. It's pretty nice that you can also get sit down time to make any modifications with the designer when you get the horns. Obviously it is impossible to match all mouthpieces and emboucher tendencies. I believe a little bit of sit down customizing is always necessary.
It really was price that deterred me. I wasn't in the market for new horns when I discovered the CSGII's. I just fell in love and because of their price point, I was able to sell my Buffet's and break even. However the bore design is different in the CSGII clarinets. It is a German Hybrid bore which responses and feels quite different from regular french bore designs. I felt more at home with the CSG's tendencies at the time. I feel though that if I were to get a set of MOBA Cocobolo clarinets that choosing the favorite would be like trying to decide which one of your children you love more.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-07 20:13
JamesOrlandoGarcia wrote:
> I feel though that if I were to get a set of MOBA
> Cocobolo clarinets that choosing the favorite would be like
> trying to decide which one of your children you love more.
Based on which criteria; acoustics, craftsmanship, or both?
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-06-07 22:16)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
