 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-25 04:34
Hello everybody,
I'm currently working on programming my junior-and-a-half recital/music education recital and I am struggling to meet all the criteria set down by both my school and my private teacher. Here's what I have to work with:
- 30 to 35 minutes maximum (I know, this is a tiny amount of time. The actual required performance time for music education majors is twenty minutes, but my private teacher has let me extend it.)
- The following pieces have already been turned down for one reason or another:
Stravinsky, Three Pieces
Debussy, Premiere Rhapsody
Brahms, both Sonatas (not enough time!)
All chamber pieces (too difficult to get members together to rehearse)
- The following pieces are some of my teacher's suggestions:
Schumann, Fantasy Pieces or Three Romances (dislike both of these)
Weber, Concertino
Rachmaninoff, Vocalise (Arranged)
Cahuzac, Cantilene
Mendelssohn, Concertpiece (either one should be fine)
- The following pieces are on the fence:
Bassi, Fantasia on Rigoletto
Bernstein, Sonata
I'm currently putting together a variety of programs in hopes of presenting each of them to her for her input, and here are some of my outlines right now:
PROGRAM #1:
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Olivier Messiaen: "The Abyss of the Birds" from Quartet for the End of Time (7 min.)
Carl Maria von Weber: Grand Duo Concertante (18 min.)
Note: I'm not sure what her feelings will be on the Messiaen, and I'm almost positive she will approve of the Weber. I am just in need of a good opening piece!
PROGRAM #2:
Camille Saint-Saens: Sonata (15-16 min.)
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Witold Lutoslawski: Dance Preludes (10-11 min.)
Note: I'm not sure what her feelings will be on the Lutoslawski - not sure if she would label it as "fluff" or a work of depth. Also, not sure what to put in the middle!
PROGRAM #3:
Louis Cahuzac: Cantilene (5 min.)
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Leonard Bernstein: Sonata (10-11 min.)
Note: I'm not exactly sure what else to put here!
Anyways, I'm open to suggestions on any of the programs I have outlined above or other programs that may suit my needs! My teacher has constantly been saying I need works of "musical depth," which I believe is a very vague term that changes based on the individual, but I must gain my teachers approval on any recital repertoire!
Thank you very much!
-Tyler
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Author: gwie
Date: 2012-05-25 05:50
Any of these programs would be fine, as long as you play the works well.
Honestly, if your teacher is that fussy about specific repertoire, you should just let her choose, and deal with it.
Squishing a program with a lot of "depth" into 30 minutes is like trying to enjoy a nice dinner at a four star restaurant in 30 minutes. :P
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-05-25 06:00
What do YOU *WANT* to play? Not what's up for approval or what you think your teacher would approve of. What do YOU want?
This is about you, not your teach. Grow a pair and tell her "I am playing these pieces because I find them to be of musical depth" and let her deal with her own preconceptions on her time.
Music is about you establishing your opinion and perspective on the music. If she refuses to let you play the piece you want, insist she provide an explanation of why it is not appropriate. You have to stand your ground if you're going to be a valuable member of any community, a creative community doubly so, or else you're just someone's pawn. This is a great opportunity to take such a stand.
Don't back down.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-05-25 10:57
EEBaum wrote:
> This is about you, not your teach. Grow a pair and tell her "I
> am playing these pieces because I find them to be of musical
> depth" and let her deal with her own preconceptions on her
> time.
I like your alternate reality. It might not help you get a good mark, qualify for a degree, or later in life keep a job, but I like it nonetheless.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-05-25 12:35
You say that all chamber pieces have already been turned down. How does a Mendelssohn concertpiece make the approved list? Or does "chamber" in this context mean "without piano"?
Open program 1 with some of the Finzi Five Bagatelles?
Fill program 2 with the Messaien?
Fill program 3 with the Mendelssohn sonata, movements 2 & 3?
(I'm assuming that incomplete works are permitted.)
Another element to consider: who will be at the piano? Will it be someone you'll get to spend some quality time with and who already knows some of your repertoire? Or will it be some generic pianist assigned to you whom you'll be lucky to see more than twice?
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-05-25 14:09
If you're looking for some short "filler" pieces, I have two ideas. The first is Carl Nielsen's Fantasy. It's not very long and not difficult, but it's a pleasant work and fun to play. Another possibility is Gabrielle Pierne's Canzonetta. It's not all that difficult, but some of the runs will take some work. Still, it's a very charming piece. I think your audience would enjoy either selection.
Your longer selections sound nice, but if you're looking for other possibilities, I'd consider the Copland Sonata (the transcription of the violin sonata which Copland authorized) and the Martinu sonatina.
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Author: jvanullen
Date: 2012-05-25 17:23
The Penderecki Three Miniatures are an absolute joy to play and run about 4 and a half minutes for the set of them. They closed my junior recital.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-26 04:47
Well the Mozart Quintet is just about a 30 minute piece. It's not played very often for reecitals, but it should be!The Brahms Quintet is another thats hardly ever performed. Take a look at the Reger clarinet quintet and lastly the Hendemith Sonata and the clarinet quartet.
The Hendemith Sonata is a good workout and pleasnt listening for your audience.
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Author: Joanna
Date: 2012-05-26 05:05
You can pair the Lutoslawski and the Weber. And maybe add Debussy's Petite Piece?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-05-26 17:48
Mark: Life is too short to live a reactive existence. I've come to realize this lately, and it's changed everything. If you don't assert yourself, especially as a musician, you're doomed to be both replaceable and glossed over. If a teacher just wants a bunch of clones of herself, then I would question the value of the degree.
Tyler: What pieces do you WANT to play? Decide that first. THEN negotiate or jump through hoops to keep your teacher happy. Don't, however, come up with a bunch of hypothetical situations and get deep into debate about which the teacher will approve of.
Your teacher is there to HELP you, not to be some mystical know-all gatekeeper whose riddle you have to solve. Take the issue to her, tell her what you want to play, and if she doesn't approve, demand that she modify the program to a configuration she approves of, absolving yourself of the situation. End of discussion, fixed in 2 minutes, no agonizing. You have to take control of the situation. Don't let it linger.
As for choosing which pieces you want, "I could play any of these 10" is not a valid response. Pick the ones you want. You know they're there. Don't consider anyone else but yourself, don't look at what you think your teacher wants, what the musical community wants, what is historically or technically valuable. Don't debate with yourself... that typically is a discussion between what you want to play and what you think you should play. Look at what pieces you genuinely emotionally WANT to play. Care about it. This is your starting point.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-26 19:40
Thank you all for your responses thus far!
Gene: I have considered just letting my teacher choose my repertoire and trying to deal with it, but she and I don't see eye to eye on music we enjoy. She is a huge Weber and Schumann fan, while they are two composers I'm not a huge fan of. Letting her choose my recital would probably end up something along the lines of Weber's Concertino, Schumann's Fantasy Pieces, and a mystery third piece. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just I would prefer a recital I will enjoy putting together! I like your comparison to the dinner though, creative!
Alex: IDEALLY I would say "screw it" to the thirty minute time limit and play Brahms Sonata No. 2 for sure and a few other pieces (not going to spend the time thinking of exactly which ones at this given moment). I do appreciate your reply and trust me, I have considered all of what you're mentioning. My teacher and I are very similar in that we don't go down without a fight and this argument over recital repertoire has been going on for two years now. I tend to agree with Mark Charette here: it's a nice idea and it would be wonderful if that's how it worked, but unfortunately it's not realistic for the situation I'm in.
Davyd: I realized my problem with the Mendelssohn Concertpieces after I posted this thread. My teacher likes when we do them because then we can rely on other members of our studio to play the second clarinet part: easier to coordinate than getting a string quartet together or whatever other ensemble there may be. Chamber in this context is more referring to small ensembles. I like your suggestion for the first program, I think Finzi could fit very nicely into that program! I would be hesitant to put the Messiaen in the second program, though, given I'm also including the Lutoslawski (a little more contemporary than I think I want to go on this recital). I will check out the Mendelssohn Sonata, I've never heard it before! I choose my own pianist: our studio accompanist is quite good and will be able to play anything I put in front of her.
Clarinetguy: My teacher also recommended Nielsen's Fantasy, I will have to check it out and see how I feel about it. I love the Pierne, but unfortunately my teacher isn't the biggest fan. The Copland Sonata is a nice suggestion, too!
David: I do love the Kovacs Hommages, I am just unsure how to program them as they are so short: do I do multiple? Should I just stick to one? I really love the Hommages to Bach, Debussy, and de Falla; teacher loves the Hommage to Weber (which, luckily, is the longest). What are your thoughts?
Joe: I will check them out! I'm sure they could fit very nicely with one of my proposed programs!
Bob: Unfortunately chamber pieces are out of the question for this recital. I do love the Hindemith, though, I'm just not sure how my teacher will feel about it. Thanks, though!
Joanna: I have considered pairing the Lutoslawski and the Weber, but I was unsure about how much work I would have on my plate if I put the two of them together. I haven't obtained a copy of the Lutoslawski yet, so I'm relying only on my ear and word of mouth regarding the piece. I will check out the Debussy, too!
Again, thank you all for your responses!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-05-26 19:59
I still think you have more control over the situation than you realize. You only *need* 20 minutes, the extra 10-15 is gravy. You want to play the Brahms. Play the Brahms. That should satisfy the first 20. Then pick some other piece you like. If your teacher is going to fail you because you played the Brahms 2nd Clarinet Sonata, a pillar of the clarinet rep, for your graduation requirement AS AN EDUCATION MAJOR FFS, then 1) it's not a teacher whose approval I would be concerned with, and 2) that's easy to appeal.
Don't be an ass about it, but tell your teacher that this is a piece of quality, and this is what you want to play.
I established a relationship very early on with my teachers where I would choose all the rep. With one teacher, it was always a battle ("you really should play the Mozart!") but I never relented save once when I learned a Schumann Fantasy Piece. With my most recent teacher, he would have it no other way, and lamented when students came in and didn't know what music they wanted to work on ("if I have to tell you what music to play, you're obviously not excited enough about the instrument to be a clarinet major").
From your last response, Brahms + Pierne and some Kovacs Hommages sound like the way to go.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-05-26 20:02
Sometimes you have to be confrontational. It tends to be frowned upon in today's society (in favor of being "nice" or "agreeable" with anger always seen as negative and unproductive), and it's how people end up unhappy with their lot in life, in an effort to accommodate others at their own expense. Pick your battles, of course, but if something is important to you, don't let it go without speaking your piece.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-05-26 20:04
If you can use another clarinetist, then play the Poulenc Sonata for two clarinets! It's maybe 6-8 minutes and really fun!
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Author: jvanullen
Date: 2012-05-26 20:40
As far as confrontation goes, it seems as though you have a teacher who is concerned with having you play standard repertoire, and while I don't agree with the extent at which they're having control over what you play, I think that, as an education major, keeping you on track with that repertoire is important. My teacher and I always pick repertoire together for semesters when I'm playing Juries or Levels, and so sometimes, for the sake of playing things that I need to learn, I take her input seriously.
However, this is your recital to present to friends and family, and if you aren't going to be enjoying what your teacher is having you play, what motivation will you have to learn that music other than merely passing. You'll never play something you don't enjoy better than something you do because you'll be motivated to practice.. Why not put it in that perspective for your teacher? They may not be happy that they're being questioned, but as a college student, I think you have the right to always question your education.
Post Edited (2012-05-26 20:41)
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2012-05-26 20:58
First of all, I like all your thoughts and ideas, and I think you would be better off playing the pieces you enjoy and want to program.
I don't understand teachers who exert such strict control on their students' recital programs. As long as the pieces are challenging and not jovial pop arrangements (which, actually, I have indeed seen, at least on youtube), why not let the actual student program the recital how he wants?
If it's required that he or she learn the standards, so be it, but then they shouldn't be planning the recital, the teacher should just tell them what to play and that would be it. I would suggest you learn the standards to a performable level and then plan your recital however you want. Pick a theme that can show the artistic integrity of your choices. If you can do this and your teacher still won't allow it, but I'm sorry... you should study with someone who will give you artistic freedom.
Anyways, end of rant. Here are my thoughts.
Don't plan both recitals right now, just do one and figure the other out as you mature as a player. Pieces that seem far-fetched right now, or that do not currently pique your interest, might seem feasible or interesting next year. Allow this to happen.
Definitely do the Messiaen, it's a great piece. If not this then perhaps you might like the Poulenc for two clarinets mentioned above. Premiere Rhapsody is, of course, brilliant, but it might be a bit much for a junior program, though I have no idea what your skill level is.
The Bernstein Sonata is another one I did on my junior recital and it's great because it's very short and only two movements. I really hate Hindemith, but it might be good to play here as well I suppose.
Also, do an arrangement of something Baroque. It shows that you are competent in more ways than just playing, and the panel will be thrilled.
Hope this helps!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-27 00:07
EEBaum (Alex) and Mark Charette, and all of the other people posting. Sounds like the teacher is a bit inexperienced perhaps. Since I don't know her I can't make a judgement call and if I did know her I probably wouldn't make a judgement call either. Anyway, Alex and Mark I liked your response that he should do whatever he wants and not get kicked around, but work with the teacher on your favorite pieces. Favorate pieces usually means good recitals, because you like the work, you feel it, and it's fun to practice it.
I've played some of the pieces that TMHolstrom listed and they are wonderful. Seems a bit silly that the instructor for whatever reason has limited or rejected his lists.
TMHolstrom - If you want to really test yourself and you have time, there's the Nielson and a bit less demanding is the Copland. The Copland can be played most likely in 2 or 3 months of practice, spending a long time of practice on the last page. I would play it a bit slower. Before Copland died I had the honor of playing in the orchestra with him conducting, but sadly not the concerto. One of the points he made was not to rush pieces, have fun with them. Thats the way he wanted his work to be played. The tempo he chose was just a guide. This included his concerto. He wanted Benny Goodman to play the piece with more of a jazz feel and for the most part I think Benny did this well, because he had the fast fingers and articulation and of course the jazz style in brained into his head to pull the piece off faster in some areas then most of us can do it. So if you decide on the Copland take your time and play it the way in which you can handle it. Perhaps you have great technique and you can master this concerto without difficulty. This is also another piece that people performing recitals can have a lot of fun with.
The Nielson however is based of his friend of Nielson's going crazy, for a lack of words; so it's a demanding piece in a lot of areas. I'm pretty sure Lee Morgan and or Dave Shifrin may have played this for his/there senior recitals at Interlochen, at the age of 17 or 18. I wasn't at Interlochen yet, but it must have been wild hearing a young kids playing this.
By the way, now that the younger players are trained so well it's not uncommon to hear a lot more younger players perform this concerto very well and are still in high school. It's exciting to see so many gifted players performing even harder cancertos than the Nielson.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-05-27 00:20)
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-27 01:43
Alex: While I do tend to agree with you, I really think confrontation would not be the best way to go about this. To put it in perspective, my teacher is very conservative and set in her ways (with reason, she has been doing this for a very long time, studied with some of the best teachers, etc.) and I came in with very little experience. Coming into my first year of college I was expecting a continuation of what I was doing in high school (my senior year I worked a lot on Copland's Concerto, Stravinsky Three Pieces, and a lot of very contemporary music). What I didn't know in high school was that Mozart and Weber were "standard" composers: their music was very boring to me and I never touched it. This set up a relationship from the beginning where I needed my teacher to choose my repertoire because I was not in a position where I had good technique or should've been playing the repertoire I had in high school. I do think it's important for students to have a say in what they play, but I think at this point it isn't possible to establish this type of relationship with my teacher and negotiation is the only way to get some of what I want out of her.
Katrina: While another clarinetist is an option, I'm not a huge Poulenc fan. Thank you for your suggestion though! Any other suggestions are appreciated!
Joe: Indeed, my teacher is very concerned with me playing the standard repertoire. To a point, I appreciate this, though, because I never would pick the standards for myself because I don't necessarily enjoy playing all of them, but by her picking them it's forcing me to learn them and giving me the tools I need to teach potential future students. Does that make sense? Generally there is discussion between my teacher and I regarding the repertoire I will play, but when we reach a stalemate it gets rough (which is why I'm on here looking for additional suggestions!). I think you and I really see eye-to-eye on a lot of this situation. I have told her I would sound better on pieces I love because I would be willing to practice them more, but my teacher and I don't see eye-to-eye on this. Last year after working on Concertino (and only Concertino, mind you) for a semester I told her I was burnt out of playing the same piece and I wanted something new and it seemed that she didn't understand what I meant by burnt out. Some people can mindlessly practice the emotion out of music, but that's not me.
Sean: Good idea with learning the standards to a performable level for my teacher and then presenting a recital of my choice, I'm not sure if that would even work though. I have been told by a few friends to switch teachers, but technique-wise I'm getting more than I expected and I appreciate how much my technique is improving from studying with my current teacher. It's a tricky situation! I'm really considering the Messiaen, it's an interesting piece, I'm just not sure how it would fit into a program (especially as I have now narrowed down some of my programs and the Messiaen doesn't make musical sense on the recital). I will make a post separate from this with my revised programs so you can see.
Bob: As much as I would love to do the Nielsen or the Copland, I know my teacher would not approve of either of these pieces (with reason, mind you). I don't think my technique is in a strong enough place right now (or will be a year from now) to perform either of those pieces and do them any justice. Granted, I performed the Copland in high school, but now I see music in a different way and would need to put a lot of work into the piece to make it into something I would be proud to present. Thank you for your suggestions, though! If only I could be one of those 15-year-old prodigies playing the Nielsen...
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-27 01:50
Hello all!
Based on your suggestions and some of my creative thinking, I have narrowed down my recital programs and I think I have it down to two I would be proud to present.
PROGRAM #1:
Robert Schumann: Fantasy Pieces
Olivier Messiaen: “Abyss of birds” from Quartet for the End of Time
Camille Saint-Saens: Sonata
PROGRAM #2:
Robert Schumann: Fantasy Pieces
Olivier Messiaen: “Abyss of birds” from Quartet for the End of Time
Carl Maria von Weber: Grand duo Concertante
While I don't necessarily LOVE the Schumann, I could do it and be content. I do like both the Saint-Saens and the Weber (ideally I would put them together, but sticking to my teachers time constraint I have to pick one or the other). The Messiaen is a wild card with my teacher: I can almost guarantee she will turn it down, but we will see! If she does, then possibly one of the Mendelssohn Concertpieces or something roughly 7-8 minutes long. How do these programs sound?
Thanks!
-Tyler
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-05-27 03:18
They sound great, but I'd like to recommend again that you at least listen to the Poulenc 2-clarinet sonata even if you don't like the solo clarinet sonata.
IMO the Mendelssohn stuff is dull, FWIW.
Other options would be the Gordon Jacob 5 Pieces for Solo Clarinet (but she might raise a stink if she's not as into contemporary stuff) or the Sutermeister Capriccio.
Otherwise, maybe the Tartini "Concertino" as arranged by Gordon Jacob would be an interesting non-typical clarinet piece.
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-27 03:32
Katrina,
Thank you for your response! I did take a listen and read through the Sonata for Two Clarinets. Something about the way Poulenc writes music for clarinet just sort of creeps me out. Some people like it, it's just not my favorite thing to listen to (thus playing it is somewhat dull). Thanks again for the recommendation, though!
I think you've caught on to the fact I'm trying to balance the opening and closing pieces with something modern. I will check out the pieces you mentioned and see if either of them would be a good fit. I know for a fact my teacher loves the Sutermeister, so that could possibly make the cut!
Thanks again,
-Tyler
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-05-27 07:43
I'd ditch the Schumanns for the Lutoslawski, but that's my preference. (the SFP were the last nail in the coffin that put me off playing rep)
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-05-27 11:02
The Schumann are great pieces, but they are really hard, in the sense that they are very tiring. I'm not sure doing this followed by the Messiaen is a really good idea. Unless you are really confident about your endurance - the last movement is particularly hard for taking breath and recovering embouchure/tuning etc - you would do better to put something lighter to follow it with.
I know some people here have decided to express the idea that this is a democracy and you should do what you like, but I don't think that can be applied to all situations, especially when you have voluntarily put yourself in a position of subjugation. I know some very fine teachers who work with a set repertoire because they are able to teach very particular concepts through it. Plus they are familiar with it, so they have more to teach. You said she is a 'huge Schumann and Weber' fan while are you are not - aren't you even slightly curious to find out why she is, other than being 'conservative'? If I were you, I would try to make the most of the suggests of your educator who, fingers crossed, wants the best for you, and has had considerably more experience than you. You might even play the Messiaen better in the future if you learn how to play Weber and Schumann.
This isn't to say you should be blind in your faith. You should ask questions, ask how to do it, ask how to like Schumann and Weber. You are there to learn, after all. But just doing what you like, and expecting them to come to the party, seems like a foolish move.
I play professionally, if it matters.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-05-27 11:30
I opened my Senior recital with the Schumann - that was the "easy piece".
Not that it was at all, but compared to the rest.
Schumann
Rossini Intro Theme & Var
Bax Sonata
David Trio (an Elsa commision)
I recently put up the Rossini on YouTube
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-05-27 14:23
The piece I was going to open my senior recital with was a transcription of Marcello's Oboe Concerto in C Minor. It was the Southern Music publication that was actually transcribed for soprano sax (I liked that version better than Dishinger's transcription for clarinet). The recital didn't happen for various reasons, but when decided to cancel it, the Marcello and Brahms' Sonata #2 were definitely on the program.
My degree was a BA in music, but there was no specific concentration (performance, theory, etc), and the school I went to didn't have a music ed degree. The major itself was going through revisions, so the recital wasn't a requirement yet (but it was strongly suggested). I was going to push it off a year, but financial aid snafus messed up my returning to school. Thankfully, I was able to graduate on a technicality.
How much is your teacher willing to compromise? I have a lot of freedom with my current teacher (he tends to do that for his adult students and is more structured with the younger students). Are performance and education majors treated differently in your studio rep-wise? Does every student tend to butt heads on this stuff? Just trying to get an overall feel for the situation.
If time is a big issue with your teacher, can you play movements of pieces? I don't know if you answered that earlier; if so, I didn't see it.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-05-27 18:33
A school should not be considered a position of subjugation for the student. It is extremely unfortunate that that often becomes the case in society today.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-05-27 20:59
EEBaum wrote:
> A school should not be considered a position of subjugation for
> the student. It is extremely unfortunate that that often
> becomes the case in society today.
>
What do you mean? Unfortunate that the student is subjugated? If that is what you mean, I don't see it that way. In my experience, nowadays the student is considered to be "the customer" and the school bends over backward to keep the customer happy, which in the end does the student more harm than good. Here we have a teacher who suggests music of moderate difficulty, like the Rachmaninoff Vocalise, and recommends against more difficult works like Premiere Rhapsody. The student is dissatisfied and complains to the internet. Without knowing the first thing about how the student plays, the internet largely agrees that the teacher is probably doing a poor job and urges the student to be assertive, perhaps even confrontational, and to insist on playing works that are more interesting. Really, how DARE a teacher attempt to select appropriate works for her student to perform in recital? The nerve.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/professor-deeply-hurt-by-students-evaluation,20130/
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2012-05-27 21:09
JHowel:
> Really, how DARE a teacher attempt to select appropriate works for her student to perform in recital? The nerve.
Yes. I believe this is true. Is the teacher guiding the student's artistic development, or is he (or she) stifling or controlling it from his own experience and desires. The world changes too fast for this, and perhaps the student would be better suited by playing music that he is passionate about.
I know of few art or architecture students that are ordered exactly what to do for their projects by their teachers. It's unfortunate that music teachers don't give their students any artistic freedom until AFTER the degree when they then feel lost and have no idea what to do with themselves except seek guidance from a master's degree.
I feel grateful that my teacher allowed me to be thoroughly creative with the programming, while still guiding me in the right direction. I felt like my recitals were extensions of myself and my artistic desires at the time. And if that's not the purpose of art and indeed a recital, I don't know what is.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-05-27 22:06
Well, Sean, neither of us knows whether the teacher is stifling the development of the Next Big Thing by insisting that he/she play music that is to her (the teacher's) taste, or trying to help that student develop higher standards by playing music that is within his/her capabilities and playing it well. Most of those responding seem to assume the former. I -- and most of the teachers I know -- are in favor of students taking on technical challenges, and, if there is a difference of opinion on recital programming, are likely to err on the side of letting the student bite off more than he/she can chew. If I discourage a student from playing Stravinsky and suggest Schumann instead, there will be a good reason for that. So I am probably more likely than the students here to consider the possibility that the teacher is simply doing her job.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-05-27 23:15
I see that we've strayed from the original topic here, but I think the student's major is an important factor.
Tyler mentioned that this is a music ed. recital. When I was a music ed. major long ago, we weren't required to play a recital, and I didn't. In fact, most music ed. majors at my school didn't. When I went out into the real world of public school teaching, nobody asked me or even cared if had played a recital in college. The ability to control a class, deal with parents, write lesson plans, teach basic skills on every instrument, arrange music, conduct a band, etc. were the skills that really counted.
Having said this, I think every college clarinet player should be familiar with the basic literature, which would include the Mozart and Weber concertos, the Weber concertino, the Brahms sonatas, etc. If I taught clarinet at the college level and I had a student who wanted to spend four years playing nothing but Gordon Jacob, Daniel Gregory Mason, Paul Hindemith, Mendelssohn, etc., I would put my foot down and say "no." There's nothing wrong with these composers, but again, every serious clarinet player should know the major literature of Mozart, Weber, and Brahms.
Performance majors really need to learn the repertoire in depth. I would think that this includes everything from the Stamitz concertos to Eric Mandat. An instructor of a performance major might have to be a bit controlling at times. He or she really does know best!
For education majors, I don't think things have to be so cut and dry. As long as an education major has performed some of the basic literature during his/her undergraduate years, I think more choice should be given.
I've observed that some university clarinet instructors (and applied faculty of other instruments too) don't really understand the world of public school teaching. They need to remember that many students might teach some of this literature in the future, but most will never (or very seldom) perform any of it after leaving college.
Post Edited (2012-05-27 23:18)
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2012-05-27 23:17
JHowell,
Yes you are right, I do think that people here are too fast to jump on the criticize the teacher wagon, and I don't mean to do that. It just seems that this is a common problem, that's all.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-05-28 01:47
I think this is a fruitful discussion despite straying from the original topic. While there may be, due to practice time and other factors, a difference between how much ed and performance students learn, I draw no distinction between ed and performance students in terms of how I teach them. I think that an educator who cannot perform is severely handicapped, and that a performer who thinks that he/she will avoid teaching at least privately is delusional. Both should base their accomplishments on a sound technical foundation and understanding. Both must understand the harmonic principles that underlie musical interpretation and that are more easily learned in Weber than, say, Messiaen. Both must learn how to evaluate their own playing and performances according to real standards, and not hide behind art from the responsibility to develop skill. Occasionally, both want to run before they can walk. Which is just the way it goes. I'm not suggesting that the OP is one of those students who complains about being bored by music he/she can't actually play, but if we are to talk about teachers who stifle their students' creative development with their own desires, it is only fair to point out the other side.
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Author: vin
Date: 2012-05-28 01:48
As if having to learn the Schumann Fantasy Pieces was such an act of subjugation. How can you claim to play Kurtag well if you don't know Schumann? Imagine it in another context..."no, art professor, I won't look at this Delacroix and learn something about painting from it..I'm feeling graffiti today." God forbid anyone try to teach anything to anyone because they might get in the way of their student's "pheelings." As if there was actually nothing as technique or history or anyone else's experiences that could be learned from in any way. As if there was nothing else in the world but "my desires...right now!"
Beethoven may have rebelled against all that came before, but he studied with Haydn and knew how to do counterpoint. Ferran Adria may give us tempura as an inhalant, but he certainly learned how to do dishes and cook a chicken in the classic style. Einstein, Stravinsky, Picasso. All these people were able to rebel because they knew their craft intricately and (NOT or) had vision of something different. They were not growing a pair for the sake of growing a pair.
The best thing an artist can do is to find their own voice, however, no one does this in a vacuum, alone...with only a dose of @#T% you.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2012-05-28 02:17
> I think that an educator who cannot perform is severely handicapped, and that a performer who thinks that he/she will avoid teaching at least privately is delusional.
No truer words have ever been spoken.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: vin
Date: 2012-05-28 03:05
That seems intuitively correct, and I think on average it probably is, but at the highest level, it is not. Ivan Galamian and Dorothy Delay were two of the 20th century's greatest violin teachers, yet did not perform. It is interesting that Galamian even stated that one could be a world class performer or a world class teacher but not both (which at the very least is food for thought). As Ed Palanker can attest, Leon Russianoff hardly performed. Yet all of them were able to elicit fantastic results. Acting, tennis, and golf teachers are often the same way...intense noticers and enablers but not doers. For the rest of us, however, I agree with you- trying to do both well is almost always necessary, both economically and in terms of developing one's knowledge base.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-05-28 08:14
Jhowell wrote:
Without knowing the first thing about how the student plays, the internet largely agrees that the teacher is probably doing a poor job and urges the student to be assertive, perhaps even confrontational, and to insist on playing works that are more interesting.
--
I wasn't saying that the teacher is doing a poor job, though I have never been a fan of "no, you can't do that, but I won't tell you what you can do". My beef was more on a philosophical level, of the student feeling like he had to please a sort of imaginary panel and figure out what the teacher wanted, seeming to abandon his own artistic opinion in favor of what would seem more "acceptable". I've seen this thought process all over, including (perhaps most intensely) in my own history, the result of which tends to be a person that tries to please everyone else (often failing to do so) with only one consistent result: that they don't do what they themselves want.
I'm not suggesting at all that a person shouldn't learn important works of the repertoire (my own history notwithstanding). However, for a recital meant to reflect a musician's artistry and perspective, and for a situation where the musician is asking for an opinion on what to play, it seems a horrible negligence to dismiss *what the musician himself wants to do* and treat it as only a minor addendum to the criteria at hand.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-05-28 10:18
Hi David,
I agree, it's possible, I was sounding a warning about taking it too lightly.
Hi Alex,
I didn't say that ALL university students were subjugated. Indeed, there are many fields where freedom of thought and interpretation should be encouraged. And then in other fields where this should be encouraged, but towards the end of study. It's hard to talk in generalities like this, though.
When I want to learn the 'craft' of playing the clarinet, I acknowledge that I am in a position of weakness because I possess inadequate knowledge. I have an idea of the end result, but often this changes as I learn more. (Suddenly the local symphony orchestra's rendition of Tchaikovsky 5 is not as good as the Vienna Phil under Gergiev for example). To learn then, I put myself voluntarily under the guidance of another person, who has greater experience than me, and hopefully, practises the craft in a way I find not only acceptable, but beautiful. If I am to learn from them, I am at least initially obliged to follow their advice, (as that is why I am there), and if I am unsure, I have the rather luxurious possibility of asking them why they suggest what they do. The power relationship is dynamic, as I am able to ask for justification, but I still remain under a degree of voluntary subjugation, as I possess less knowledge (hopefully).
Vin expressed another element of this - we are, like it or not, part of a historical tradition, which is asserted through the prejudices/beliefs (depending on your perspective) of performers/teachers (often passed through a lineage of performer/teachers), culture-specific practices, and the ubiquitousness of recordings.
Our original poster has gone to university to learn how to play, and teach clarinet, within a tradition of art music, which has many long-standing practices. I think it is necessary that they should see the teacher as a help, not a hindrance.
Post Edited (2012-05-28 11:06)
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-28 16:03
Alex: I would probably prefer that, too, but at this point I think I just have to accept my fate and play the pieces my teacher wants me to play. I appreciate your input, though!
Alexis: As you will see in my next post, my teacher and I cut out the Messiaen all together. I really appreciate your second paragraph. From a compositional standpoint, I think Weber is boring because his music is, to me, the epitome of tonality. I feel like when he wrote his music he was saying to himself "Look at how many scales and arpeggios I can put into one piece!" which is just annoying to listen to - again, just my opinion. I do think the Schumann Fantasy Pieces are beautiful, I just want my only collegiate recital to be about me, not the pianist. You have to admit, the piano part is way more interesting than the clarinet part. I think it would be a good idea for me to, as you mentioned, as my teacher how to like the pieces and try to get her input. Thank you for your response.
Alexis, part two (in response to your second post): I am sorry if it seems like I view my teacher as a hindrance. Do I think she's holding me back slightly through her repertoire choices? Yes. But for all of those choices, my technique has gotten exponentially better and she is making me into a significantly better player than I was two years ago. Again, thank you for your input on this topic.
David: My original plan (last year, mind you) was to open my recital with the Rossini and then do Brahms Sonata No. 2. Obviously, things have changed quite a bit! Not necessarily my choice, but some day I will put on a recital of my own with my own music and be happy.
Rachel: She's willing to compromise to a small extent. As soon as she found out I enjoyed playing the Saint-Saens, she was fixated on it and I haven't been able to get it out of her mind since. Convincing her to replace the Saint-Saens would be like convincing her to switch to flute or something - not going to happen. I'm not sure that she would allow me to do play movements of pieces though. What did you have in mind?
Jack: Trust me, I have no intentions of being confrontational with my teacher and I completely understand what you're saying. It's obvious to me that the Debussy would be out of the picture, but the reason I came here was to get help with ideas for pieces to propose to my teacher. By no means was I complaining or whining about my teacher - I'm sorry if this was misconstrued somehow. I do agree that my teacher is doing her job, don't get me wrong, but it seems that she is using the fact that I am a music education major against me - assuming that I don't have time to prepare pieces that would be more challenging for me. I think you'd be happy to know that the pieces that are now officially programmed for my recital are two that my teacher chose and I have little to no say in that.
Clarinetguy: At my school I am required to put on a recital, it is just a significantly reduced recital in comparison to performance majors. Trust me, I have never recommended doing anything slightly contemporary more for my teacher's sake. I studied a lot of contemporary music in high school, so it hasn't been a problem. I do agree that every college clarinet player needs to be familiar with the standards, but I don't necessarily agree with spending an entire YEAR (two full semesters) studying the first movement of the Mozart concerto. I think that is not time well-spent, almost on the verge of indulgent (and by the end I wasn't learning much anyways), but I understand the need to know the literature. I appreciate your input though in regards to teaching: it's likely I won't perform these works but it is very likely I may teach them in the future.
Vin: I do agree that there are things to learn from studying the classics and I'm not trying to reject the standard repertoire and program a recital that is completely out of left field, nor am I trying to say that the only thing that matters in programming this recital is my feelings and desires. I'm sorry if you've interpreted all of this as me being hostile toward my teacher or trying to rebel in some way. In regards to studying the standard repertoire though, I don't think that an education focusing only on the Mozart Concerto, Weber Concertino, and Schumann Fantasy Pieces is a well-rounded education on clarinet. There are many huge aspects that are being left out that I'm left to figure out on my own, when really I would appreciate my teacher's input.
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-28 16:07
Okay, everybody. My teacher and I have spoken and finalized my recital program. I appreciate everyone's input in trying to help me determine the repertoire to put on this recital, as well as the discussion that has occurred that put some new thoughts into my head in terms of why I am going to college and what I should be getting out of my teacher. So here's the program:
Saint-Saens: Sonata
Schumann: Fantasy Pieces
I know, it seems like all of that discussion has gotten me nowhere, but as many of us has mentioned it seems most important for this degree and this recital to just accept the fact that my teacher will program my recital the way she wants and I almost have to sit back and let it happen. Regardless of how many times I tell my teacher I want to be treated as a performance major, there is no getting around the fact that in a performance-based school I will always be looked down upon for being a music education major, but you know what? All of those performance majors are going to program very ambitious recitals that will probably not turn out as well as my less ambitious recital will and in the end I will feel more satisfied knowing that I put on a successful recital.
Thanks again for all of your input!
-Tyler
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-05-28 23:05
Tyler, thanks for reading. I wasn't always directly addressing you - sometimes I was talking in general terms, and about the way others had interpreted your teacher's position.
Why don't you put on your own recital, independent of the school? Not sure what it is like in the states, but here in the UK you can often play in churches, halls, old houses etc, as a free concert. Then you have a lot more choice, and you can apply the general lessons you have learned through your study in some more varied repertoire?
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-29 14:48
Alexis, I think that's what I'm going to do! There is a church nearby my school that has a weekly concert series and they LOVE featuring musicians from the area, so I'm thinking I will do two recitals there: one at some point this year with music I want to play and one a week or two before my degree recital at school to get a test run and see what happens in performance situations. Thanks again for all of your input!
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Author: kchan ★2017
Date: 2012-05-30 19:47
I just skimmed though your list so I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the pieces that she's recommending is a bit less technical than the list that you want to play. I don't know who she is and I haven't heard you play, but perhaps the two of you have different end goals. Maybe she wants you to learn these pieces inside and out musically rather than achieve a technical feat of performance. If you plan to be a music teacher there may be more long term value to that.
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Author: Joanna
Date: 2012-06-03 04:46
The Lutoslawski isn't terribly difficult technically, it's just the style and feeling that may be difficult to get. This is easily solved by listening to recordings though!
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