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 Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Kontra 
Date:   2011-03-16 00:07

This is probably a beginner's problem, but I'm starting to take Bb more seriously now and am realizing how much of my technique has been neglected. When I play the higher notes such as [A5] or [B5] and [C6] I get this, I can't really explain it, some kind of empty sound and then the note plays. It is really annoying. Also, I can hit [D6] and [E6] but they are really screechy, resistant, and disgusting. Sometimes. I mean sometimes they sound good.

I'm also having trouble playing really fast, because sometimes the notes crack. I can slightly feel my embouchure move, but other times it just happens without warning. (especially going from a higher note to [C#5].) I think this is mostly my fault, but I'm gonna have the horn looked over just incase... But like I said I think its me.

Is there anything I can do with my embouchure/technique that will help? [frown]



Post Edited (2011-03-16 00:08)

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Ed Palanker 
Date:   2011-03-16 00:31

I suggest you seek out a private teacher and take private lesson. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2011-03-16 01:25

One suggestion may be to just take your mouthpiece and "crow." The note you should get on your tuner should be a very flat C#. If you're at a sharp C natural or below, you are not getting an efficient air flow out of your mouth (think the vowel sound "EEEEEEE"). And you could stand a bit more energy in your embouchure......NOT BITING, just more musculature all around (cheek muscles, UPPER LIP MUSCLES.........like a rubber band all around the mouthpiece.



.................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: clariniano 
Date:   2011-03-16 02:24

Usually the main problem I see with students and getting the higher notes on the clarinet is air--and them not using enough. So try lots of air moving at a fast speed.

A second problem could be tongue position, the higher notes need a tongue position that feels about the middle of the mouth.

Third, what kind of mouthpiece are you using? If you're using a stock mouthpiece, try getting something like a Fobes Debut. (I recommend them for most students that are beginners or intermediates, and I have tried a number of student grade mouthpieces, this one is to me by far the best especially for the price)

Fourth, try a slightly harder reed strength (1/2 to a full strength) and/or a different brand of reed. I see a lot of clarinet players who after 3-5 years of playing are still using the same brand and strength of reed they used when they were beginners. There are lots of good brands, though my favourites are the Rico Reserve (totally different from the orange box or Rico Royals) and the Legere reeds. Lots of people I know like the Vandorens, but I found I get canker sores from them, plus don't find them as consistent as the Rico Reserve.

Meri

Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: bullittcar 
Date:   2011-03-16 02:28

Work on your voicing. Voicing is changing the oral cavity to cause the higher partials to sound, the equivalent of the different brass buzzes. I tell my students to play the note with the proper fingering , then release the register key. If you're voicing properly the original note will continue to sound. If it returns to the original note your voicing is incorrect. I then practice making the upper notes sound at the beginning of the note sans reg. key. One of my practices is to finger a low C and play low C, G on the staff, altissimo E and then double A. I also start on high C and play down to long B w/o the reg. key.

Best of luck!

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Bb R13 greenline 
Date:   2011-03-16 06:39

You said 1.you can feel your embouchure move and 2. Your high notes are very shrill. That sounds alot to me like you aren't keeping a steady embouchure and ontop of that it's weak. Your embouchure is your gateway to good tone it can never move or else you run the risk of exactly what your saying. In fast passages ur lip has a tendency to wanna move even more which makes it even harder to hit notes. Remember to keep it planted still. The altissmo notes will come in time just remember not to bite to get them. Lift your tounge(correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I do) and keep the oral cavity opened wide



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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: BassClarinetBaby 
Date:   2011-03-16 11:46

It honestly sounds like you aren't using enough air right from the start, which is why the note doesn't sound immediately. Push fast air from your diaphragm. You should feel like you've ust done an ab workout after playing. Also, you need to work on strengthening your embouchure. Being a saxophonist primarily it will take awhile to perfect the clarinet embouchure. If the instrument is recently serviced/has no other problems I wouldn't recommend spending money on getting the clarinet checked over. It sounds like this is a player problem, not instrument. Good luck! Altissimo notes are tricky...

Never Bb, sometimes B#, and always B natural! ♫♪

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: kdk 
Date:   2011-03-16 19:51

I'd second Ed's suggestion to take some lessons and let a teacher help you sort these problems out.

Everything that's been posted in the other responses is correct in that any or all of the suggested solutions might help solve the problem, but there are other potential causes as well - reeds that are too light or not balanced, poor embouchure formation, too much or too little mouthpiece in your mouth, just to describe a few. There's no way to diagnose the specific cause or combination of causes without (a) hearing you play in person and (b) hearing the result of each attempt at change. Some of the solutions that might work for some problems may actually make things worse if they don't solve the problem you're having. And the process of trying so many potential solutions can become hopelessly confusing simply because you may not be (probably aren't) dealing with only one problem and need to make a combination of changes of both approach and, possibly, equipment.

A competent teacher could help you straighten out a lot of what you've posted about recently, probably fairly quickly, starting with checking to make sure there aren't mechanical problems with the equipment. There'd be a lot less wheel-spinning in an in-person lesson environment and, if the teacher knows what he/she is doing, less trial and error.

Karl

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Kontra 
Date:   2011-03-18 05:13

Sorry on the late reply.

I am taking lessons already, but like I said I'm just now getting back into Bb so I'm starting to bring that in instead of my bass. I'll definitely try the stuff out you guys told me, and post my results.

I currently play a Premiere by Hite. I plan on getting a Fobes Debut and a Brilhart.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: DAVE 
Date:   2011-03-18 06:04

If your private teacher is teaching you as a beginner on bass clarinet then I would find another teacher. There are a lot of "teachers" in your area who are highly paid baby sitters rather than serious instructors. A good quality teacher can be found and I would be happy to suggest a few if you want to contact me offline.

BTW, I love the bass, but as a young clarinetist, you would be better served by learning how to correctly play the clarinet first and then the auxiliaries.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Kontra 
Date:   2011-03-18 06:21

I've been playing for 4 years now, but focusing on bass mostly. I just picked up alto sax.

I can get the rhythms, I can play the parts, it's just my voicing on certain notes that I can't get. And I do sound good. It's these notes I have trouble with.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: mrn 
Date:   2011-03-18 18:29

Kontra wrote:

> I can get the rhythms, I can play the parts, it's just my
> voicing on certain notes that I can't get. And I do sound good.
> It's these notes I have trouble with.

It does sound like you need to work on voicing. Voicing is also one of those things that changes when you move from one size clarinet to another. I don't play bass, but I can speak from experience in getting used to playing an A clarinet (which is just a tad bigger than a Bb) that you have to learn to voice the notes properly to get smooth connections between notes, especially across registers or in big leaps to/from short-tube and long-tube notes.

My teacher used to have me do that can help a lot is to learn to bend pitches. When you can bend pitches, it's easier to transition from notes at the top of the clarinet bore to those at the bottom and vice versa, because you employ the same sorts of movements with your tongue and oral cavity (i.e., the same sort of voicing).

One exercise she'd have me do was to start on a high C [C6] and holding that note out, bend the note downward as low as I could go and then back again. What you do, essentially, is make the front of your tongue go forward and down--kind of like what you do to go lower when you whistle. You ought to be able to go down to about a G or an F this way. It sounds a bit unpleasant to the ear, but it will give you experience in controlling the vibration of the reed with your oral configuration (which is what voicing is).

She also had me practice slurring individual intervals until I could make the transitions without any crack or break between the notes.

Another thing to look at is your embouchure. Because clarinet requires a relatively firm embouchure (compared to, say, a saxophone), it's quite easy for us to get in the habit of "biting," which can interfere with reed vibration in large intervals. What I do to keep my embouchure firm without biting is to think of putting pressure downward on the mouthpiece with my upper lip and upper teeth and to avoid letting my lower jaw bear any of the weight of the instrument. The right thumb should bear the weight of the instrument, with only the upper teeth/upper lip applying a counterforce to the thumb's upward force to keep the instrument stationary.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: mrn 
Date:   2011-03-20 17:04

Another useful technique you can sometimes use with good results is to employ alternate fingerings. Some fingerings make for smoother transitions than others (although sometimes at the expense of being a bit awkward to finger).

There's a nice video by Tom Ridenour covering some long-pipe fingerings for the upper clarion that can make big leaps easier. See the following...

http://www.youtube.com/user/billyboy647#p/u/7/UHaOCBwLVkw

Incidentally, Ridenour wrote a really nice book of alternate fingerings (with commentary!) that I think every clarinet student should consider purchasing. It's gotten me out of a lot of jams.

Also I'm a big fan of open thumb-hole altissimo fingerings. Although they are a bit awkward to use, and hence don't lend themselves that well to rapid passages, these fingerings can make slurring across the upper break much, much easier. They also tend to sound a little nicer in a lot of contexts. Here are a few I use from time to time:

for C# [C#6]:

R (no thumb) x x x | x x x Eb/Ab

for D [D6]:

R (no thumb) x x x | x o x Eb/Ab

for Eb [Eb6]:

R (no thumb) x x x | o o x Eb/Ab

Another favorite fingering of mine for F [F6], which isn't open-thumb, but works just as well is:

RT (A key) x x x G#/C# | o o o

Similarly, a really stable (although dangerously powerful ;) ) fingering for E [E6] that works off the same principle is:

RT (G# key) x x x | o o o

It's not practical to use these fingerings all the time, of course (especially in rapid technical passages), but in the right context they may be just what you need.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: LegendClarinet 
Date:   2011-03-21 00:00

"[A5] or [B5] and [C6] I get this, I can't really explain it, some kind of empty sound and then the note plays. It is really annoying. Also, I can hit [D6] and [E6] but they are really screechy, resistant, and disgusting. Sometimes. I mean sometimes they sound good."

If I understand correctly what your saying, I think i have the same problem. Sometimes I can get the notes out sounding OK, but sometimes I get the noise you described. I've been working on this with my private teacher and the best advice he has given me is to just have really good air, and it helps! So, maybe start there; just practicing having really good air flow. Good Luck!

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: kdk 
Date:   2011-03-21 00:42

Kontra wrote:

> ...When I play the higher notes such as [A5]
> or [B5] and [C6] I get this, I can't really explain it, some
> kind of empty sound and then the note plays. It is really
> annoying. Also, I can hit [D6] and [E6] but they are really
> screechy, resistant, and disgusting. Sometimes. I mean
> sometimes they sound good.
>

This can be caused by any of several problems. Poor air support is one. It can also result from applying too little embouchure pressure around the reed and mouthpiece, which in turn can be caused by using too soft reeds. It can also be caused by a register tube that juts too far into the bore of the clarinet. It can be a voicing problem - an inefficient tongue or internal position that can result from using a vowel concept that doesn't resonate well with the pitch you're trying to produce.

Again, t may be more than one of these (or other causes I haven't thought of as I'm typing) in combination, and changing any one of them alone may not make matters better or may even make them worse. If it's a problem with the instrument, you almost certainly need to have someone with more experience (your teacher, for example) try your entire setup to see if he/she has a similar problem or can at least produce it more easily than on his or her own setup.

Karl

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Kontra 
Date:   2011-03-21 01:35

Thanks everyone.

My teacher helped me with voicing [D6] and it sounds A LOT better. He helped me with my overall voicing as well. He played my clarinet and said it sounded stuffy to him, and resistant, so Ill get it looked over.

I bought a Fobes Debut mpc as well and am trying a new brand of reed.

I'm going to start applying more air support and experiment with my embouchure and how much mouthpiece I put in.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: kdk 
Date:   2011-03-21 01:45

> ...and how much mouthpiece I put in.

That's another one I forgot to include.

Karl

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: davetrow 
Date:   2011-03-21 05:11

For voicing, starting with letting go of the register key like bullittcar recommends is good. Then try what Ridenour calls the "honks and squeaks" exercise: play all three registers using only the chalumeau fingering by using your throat, etc. Should be easy down to about C (thumb and three LH fingers), then it gets more difficult. If you can get all the way down to F or E, you've got it.

Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: Kontra 
Date:   2011-03-23 02:51

Well, I got the Fobes Debut piece. I notice these differences:

It does sound better.
It is brighter.

But you know what? It doesn't help. Every single note still cracks. The tone is still so bright I need sunglasses. I cannot play [E6] to save my life. [C#5] always results in a squeak unless I pause before I play it. It is still stuffy... I cannot think of anything else to do. It's just frustrating. I did sound this way on my marching band beaten Yamaha, until I put on the Fobes, which eliminated all squeaks and cracking of notes on that horn.

I dont know what to do. It almost makes playing not fun anymore.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: BartHx 
Date:   2011-03-23 03:28

Discussions on this forum talk a lot about voicing and adequate air, but I rarely see much about support. I have seen the word support in this thread and I have seen the comment that you should feel like you just did an ab workout after you play. What I have rarely seen is that you should keep your abs flexed while you are playing in order to give your diaphragm something to work against. If you rely only on your diaphragm to control your air flow it is likely to be uneven and turbulent which can cause the problems discussed in this thread. If you keep your abs flexed while you are playing, you will get a smooth, even air flow at whatever air volume is appropriate and changes you may make in your embouchure and mouth/throat configurations will be consistent from one time to the next.

Perhaps (some 55 years ago) I was the only one who didn't know what people (band directors, etc.) were talking about when they talked about support. However, I know it made a big difference for me when I finally figured it out.

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 Re: Trouble in the altissimo
Author: davetrow 
Date:   2011-03-23 20:02

As Bart says, support is critical. I didn't figure this out until I started playing bass clarinet, where you really can't get away with poor support to the degree you can with a soprano. As a result, my altissimo on the soprano has really improved.

Rather an expensive fix, though.

Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA

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